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ForumsShowcase → The Epic Saber System
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The Epic Saber System
2003-07-04, 8:26 PM #1
Figured I'd give you all a view of what Team Epic's Saber System is looking like. The coding is 20% done, models are finished, not worth posting, and no keys have been started, simply because I -just- finished the models.

Tic-Tac-Toe View
The system basically divides the general area that the saber can be in (Basically the entirety of the first person view) into nine sections, similar to a Tic-Tac-Toe board. Doing this allows us to tell the cog which area the saber is in, based upon cog.


Code:
A
     1 | 2 | 3
     4 | 5 | 6
     7 | 8 | 9


Saber Definition
Due to the Sith Engine’s inability to define the precise location of a weapon, we can tell the Cog where the saber is according to the currently being played key (Animation.) 8 simple moves are calculated for the saber system. High Swipe: 1 - 3. Swipe: 4 - 6. Low Swipe : 7-9 Left Cut: 1, 4, 7. Cut: 2, 5, 8. Right Cut: 3, 6, 9. Left-Right Slash: 1, 5, 9, Right-Left Slash: 3, 5, 7. (As seen in ‘A’). When a key moves in the general area of a number, the code talks with those numbers. If another saber is on that line, then a block occurs.

Free Saber Movement
6 Keys (Animations) are given for each of the 8 attacks. The first key is a ‘Move In’ key, which, for ‘Cut’ is the movement to 2 to 5, or 8 to 5, depending on where your saber is coming from. If in the middle of the saber attack, say I come from 8, and I press left and down, moving me in this order: 8, 5, 7. The second key is the ‘Move Out’ key, which was the second portion of the Right-Left Slash in the 8, 5, 7 attack. In a simple saber attack on nothing, your saber would play Move In, and Move Out, seamlessly. But when directional buttons are changed while the attack button is still held down, one native attacks move in animation is before another attacks move out animation. The third, and final animation, is simply the ‘Block Out’ animation, which is simply the movement out of a blocking position. So, if I move in from 1 to 5, and someone’s saber animation is at five, and I let go of my attack button, the animation moves out on 5 and 1, unless you let go with a certain direction pressed, which would move you out in that direction. That’s three, double it for moving the other way... (IE: High Swipe can be 1 2 3, or 3 2 1. Depending on where your last saber attack ended at)

Blocking and Shifting Weight
A blocking button, plus a directional button will station the saber on one of the 8 native attack’s number order. If 2 sabers clash (Weather one be blocking, or both be moving) if the attack button is held, the weapons stay ‘Together’ and directional buttons are useless unless you let go of the attack key, which the direction will show which way the saber will pull out. The only directions that you can move in ‘Together’ mode is left and right around the opponent with strafes. If you strafe too far without them strafing with you, you can continue with the attack you originally started with. Also, because directional buttons move the player, the player will look like he’s shifting weight per attack, because the saber system relies on the directional buttons so much.

Sectional Damage
A complete native left cut with no blocks or clashes instantly takes off the left arm. If the player uses that arm for sabers, the weapon is ‘Dropped’ and can’t be used by that player. It also takes from health, and stops the use of 2 handed weapons, and lowers the reload time. Low Slash, completely through, no blocks or clashes, takes off the waste, killing the enemy. If the in, or out keys of the low slash are completely unblocked in between their descent, that leg is taken off, slowing movement considerably, and health even more. A body or head attack is an instant kill, and each kill renders a seperate death animation, according to limb dismemberment.

Stances
High, low, and normal, Left, right, and normal. Some are not available in certain stances. With up to 3 stances, each gives a separate order of attacks available. Blocks can be on any level, and never very with stance.

New Sabers
Light Whip, Double Bladed Saber, Light Pole, Adjustable Length Saber (Holding the button lengthens the saber a small bit every second, allowing for max, or min protection and distance. The longer, the better for distance, the shorter, the faster the blocking.) Light Axe, Light Claws, and Light Mace.


What do you think? Ideas, suggestions, Gebohq's nipple rings?

JediKirby


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Epic: Episode I TC, Epic: Podracing Mod MP/SP, Epic: Starbattles Mod MP/SP
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2003-07-04, 8:35 PM #2
Alright... understood most of that and it sounds like a great idea.

Oh yeah... so you can cut off people's limbs and they stil live???

/me imagines remaking the scene from monty python with chaz in Jk

hehehe...

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You don't hug the Cazor... the Cazor hugs You.
2003-07-05, 2:32 AM #3
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jEDIkIRBY:

What do you think? Ideas, suggestions, Gebohq's nipple rings?
</font>


What the--HEY! I don't have nipple rings! :P

I'm not really interested in the varients of the lightsaber weapons, but the system seems sound (though to be honest, I zoned out a bit while reading).

It'll be interesting to see anywhos [http://forums.massassi.net/html/smile.gif]

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2003-07-05, 8:46 AM #4
Forgot to mention duel sabers, and Duel light dagers.

The tic-tac-toe board wasn't correct either

Code:
A
  1 | 2 | 3
  4 | 5 | 6
  7 | 8 | 9


Ignore the green link, it's just to make it underlined.

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Epic: Episode I TC, Epic: Podracing Mod MP/SP, Epic: Starbattles Mod MP/SP

[This message has been edited by jEDIkIRBY (edited July 05, 2003).]
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2003-07-05, 8:54 AM #5
never mind my confused comment, ignore and go on
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Just because there are hundreds of millions of goddamn dumb*** english raping ****ers, doesn't make it a word. It is not a word now, and will never be a word. EVER. -Common Sense -

[This message has been edited by Genki (edited July 05, 2003).]
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Free Jin!
2003-07-05, 8:55 AM #6
Genki.... Key's are animations. They're called '.key's. For some reason, it means animation. There are only 2 saber buttons, z and ctrl, z being attack, ctrl being block.

JediKirby

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Epic: Episode I TC, Epic: Podracing Mod MP/SP, Epic: Starbattles Mod MP/SP
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2003-07-05, 8:56 AM #7
I despise those new weapons. Light claws? Whip? What advantage does this have over a standard lightsaber?

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Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2003-07-05, 8:57 AM #8
But about the rest...Emon? Perhaps I've got a good idea, for a change?

The new sabers do suck royaly, but they're new sabers non-the less. They're meant to enrich the...*trails off about nothingness*

JediKirby

------------------
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2003-07-05, 8:59 AM #9
And from a coding point of view, coding all those sabers would suck. A lot. Not to mention a saber whip is impossible in JK, at least if you want it to properly interact with things.

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Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2003-07-05, 9:02 AM #10
omfg.....it sounds too good to be true.
But still, I can't get too excited without seeing the proof and playing it first hand.

Good luck on the keys, Pjed can be a cheeky mistress at the best of times.

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Where's my staff ; my staff understands me...
Code:
if(getThingFlags(source) & 0x8){
  do her}
elseif(getThingFlags(source) & 0x4){
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else{
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2003-07-05, 9:02 AM #11
Yeah, it won't properly interact, but we're making walking animations, and everything animations for it, as to make it look like it moves when you move, and sways even when you stop. Coding IS hard, but if Descent can pull it off, then we've got a mighty fine saber system you ask me.

It may SOUND confusing, but the overall feel of it in game will be great, and utterly simple to manuver. Saber battles might not consist of 'Jump run swing, jump duck run aimless swing in hopes of hitting...'

JediKirby

------------------
Epic: Episode I TC, Epic: Podracing Mod MP/SP, Epic: Starbattles Mod MP/SP
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2003-07-05, 9:04 AM #12
Oh, well the coding for the traditional blades isn't that hard. But not only are the others, in my opinion, really cheesy, but I don't think some of them will work very will in JK, ever. Especially the whip.

And animations are called KEYs because they are keyframed.

------------------
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2003-07-05, 9:05 AM #13
Well, I really think the duel daggers and the light-pole will be nice, but the whip and claws are of course, a bit dumb, but will look, and play nicely.

JediKirby

------------------
Epic: Episode I TC, Epic: Podracing Mod MP/SP, Epic: Starbattles Mod MP/SP
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2003-07-05, 9:10 AM #14
I also fail to see a significant advantage of a dagger over a saber. Lightsabers have no weight, thus a smaller one doesn't move faster.

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Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2003-07-05, 9:42 AM #15
You can move around in quicker attacks at points and make them faster because they are shorter and therefor you wouldn't slide yourself up.

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2003-07-05, 10:56 AM #16
Emon: While it's true lightsaber blades don't have TRUE mass, there's SOMETHING that simulates it somehow because lightsabers DO have momentum and inertia (Rob Brown's saber commentary gets REAL detailed and scientific on points of saber blade composition, etc).

To use one of Rob's examples, take a flashlight in a dark room, turn it on and try using it. Count how many times you hack a chunk out of your own body. There's SOMETHING that provides the FEEL of mass on the blade that makes it controllable, otherwise there'd be no safe way to use one (it has NOTHING to do with the Force: Obi-Wan says in ANH lightsabers were once a VERY common weapon, and Han had no trouble eviscerating his Tauntaun with one in ESB).

Daggers, obviously, have less mass and a different point of balance than a sword (swords, for cutting power, generally balance somewhere out on the blade while a dagger will often balance near the hilts) and are therefore faster to use.

That being said, they're a SECONDARY weapon at best since due to their shorter reach are at a marked disadvantage against a full-sized saber, no matter HOW fast the user is.

On to my Suggestions

Concerning the weapons:

Lose all the weapons but the traditional, adjustable-length and the double sabers (note on mechanics: according to the literature adjustable saber blades have a "normal" and "full" extension ONLY, there's no place in-between, and the extension is rapid to near-instantaneous. Further, while it might be frilly to double the length of your saber in a fight, there's no really practical reason to do it). The rest are absolutely pointless. While it could be intristically POSSIBLE to manipulate whatever field shapes a lightsaber to get those different forms, there's no PURPOSE to them:

Light Whip: Whips are for driving cattle, punishment and kinky bondage sex. They have little to no real value as a weapon unless you're a Hollywood 1930s archaeologist. Not only that, but it would be VERY hard to use a whip made of whatever energy a lightsaber uses without killing yourself with it (an important point Rob Brown makes about Maul's saber on his commentary page).

Light Pole: I assume you mean a polearm like a spear? The chief advantage of a spear is reach, however they're absoultely worthless at close range excluding cross-checks. Historically they were used almost EXCLUSIVELY either as a mounted weapon, (unlikely in Star Wars) to unhorse a mounted knight, (also unlikely in Star Wars) and defensively in conjunction with a shield wall. They were also occaisonally thrown, but that's what a blaster effectively does anyway. Also, your most effective pole weapon was the pike which were as much as TWELVE FEET LONG and used by anchoring one end against the ground and letting an enemy run themselves onto it.

Light Axe/Mace: The battle axe, (note to those who think Conan the Barbarian is a great reference on medieval weaponry: A battle axe was NOT a massive double-bladed two-handed stick with ridiculously large axe heads, a real battle axe was usually a one-handed weapon with a single head not much larger than a camper's hatchet) and the mace and its derivitives (hammers, flails, morning stars, etc) were developed for one explicit purpose on the battlefield: smashing armor. Once plate became common swords became less useful as a cutting weapon, (hence the development of long swords with narrow thrusting tips to pierce the joints) so axes and crushing weapons were developed to either break the armor, or the bones underneath. Considering a lightsaber can cut through virtually EVERYTHING there's absoultely no reason for an axe or mace.

Light Claws: This one is so ridiculously B-movie Ninja I won't even waste my time on it.

As a point of order, lightsabers are predominantly two-handed. They CAN be used one-handed (although I'd have to say that would be suicidally stupid with a double-saber) but you lose a lot of control and power.

Concerning the fighting system:

You might take a look into Kendo as a reference for determining not only your directional point system, especially considering lightsaber arts in the Original Trilogy (Saxman spits on Nick Gillard and is twirly sword-dance) were HEAVILY influenced by Kendo, but for animating the actual TECHNIQUES as well.

Now,I don't know for sure about Kendo, but modern sport fencing DOES use a "point" system for teaching AND recording sword movements so it's POSSIBLE Kendo has developed a similar system.

Otherwise it's a bold plan, and I wish you luck.

------------------
Founder X-wing Alliance Upgrade
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[This message has been edited by The Saxman (edited July 05, 2003).]
Founder X-wing Alliance Upgrade
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http://saxman.xwlegacy.net
2003-07-05, 11:00 AM #17
WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN SAXMAN!?!?!?!?

That is all.

------------------
Epic: Episode I TC, Epic: Podracing Mod MP/SP, Epic: Starbattles Mod MP/SP
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2003-07-05, 11:15 AM #18
Lurking.

BOO!!! Maniacal laughter.

------------------
Founder X-wing Alliance Upgrade
http://www.xwaupgrade.com

SaxSoft Productions
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Founder X-wing Alliance Upgrade
http://www.xwaupgrade.com

SaxSoft Productions
http://saxman.xwlegacy.net
2003-07-05, 11:16 AM #19
COME TO THE CHATROOM NOW OR DIE Thankyou.

------------------
Epic: Episode I TC, Epic: Podracing Mod MP/SP, Epic: Starbattles Mod MP/SP
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2003-07-05, 11:18 AM #20
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by The Saxman:
Emon: While it's true lightsaber blades don't have TRUE mass, there's SOMETHING that simulates it somehow because lightsabers DO have momentum and inertia</font>


I've always read it's a gyroscopic effect, but I never cared enough to look into it enough.

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Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2003-07-05, 11:38 AM #21
BATTLE ARENA TOSHIDEN II: Ellis
Notice how she's holding her daggers? That's the general layout for the duel daggers in UR.

JediKirby

------------------
Epic: Episode I TC, Epic: Podracing Mod MP/SP, Epic: Starbattles Mod MP/SP

[This message has been edited by jEDIkIRBY (edited July 05, 2003).]
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2003-07-05, 11:42 AM #22
...

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Epic: Episode I TC, Epic: Podracing Mod MP/SP, Epic: Starbattles Mod MP/SP
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2003-07-05, 11:42 AM #23
Whee! The Random Saber Dismemberment Mod (TM)!

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Third and most importantly, get Jed. - MikeC

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2003-07-05, 12:13 PM #24
repost

done
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[This message has been edited by Shadow89 (edited July 05, 2003).]
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2003-07-05, 4:16 PM #25
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by The Saxman:
note to those who think Conan the Barbarian is a great reference on medieval weaponry: A battle axe was NOT a massive double-bladed two-handed stick with ridiculously large axe heads, a real battle axe was usually a one-handed weapon with a single head not much larger than a camper's hatchet
</font>


But...so what? This is a GAME. The primary purpose of a game is entertainment. If historical inaccuracy boosts the "fun" factor in a game (e.g. BF1942), why complain?
2003-07-05, 8:51 PM #26
I complaining because there's enough people in this world who lets what's "fun" skew reality as it is, and it gets irritating seeing the endless fanboy uber-fighters and swords ten feet long wielded with all the finesse of a rapier. Just check out by-the-sword.com and look at the horrors Kit Rae has unleashed upon sword collectors...

------------------
Founder X-wing Alliance Upgrade
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2003-07-06, 11:49 AM #27
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by The Saxman:
I complaining because there's enough people in this world who lets what's "fun" skew reality as it is, and it gets irritating seeing the endless fanboy uber-fighters and swords ten feet long wielded with all the finesse of a rapier. Just check out by-the-sword.com and look at the horrors Kit Rae has unleashed upon sword collectors...

</font>


Because "reality" should be more important than "fun" in a game...

While I understand the need for such effort, research, etc. if a game is not FUN, it fails to be a good game. If you want reality, you make a simulator.

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2003-07-06, 12:26 PM #28
If reality wasn't fun Janes would have been a fly-by-night (no pun intended) company and wouldn't have sold squat.

And it's not a matter of fun versus reality, guys carrying five-foot long axes in each hand and swinging them like they're styrofoam (which in all probability is what those things are really made of) is just plain ridiculous.

------------------
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2003-07-06, 1:18 PM #29
I didn't say reality can't be fun. I said reality shouldn't take precidence over fun. I'm not familiar with the company you named, but I'm guessing they make simulator games, or they also put effort into gameplay balance, story, character development, or a number of other things.

I worry when thinking what your views on cartoons, comedy, and comic books are.

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2003-07-06, 6:38 PM #30
Saxman's jaw hits the floor.

You've never heard of Longbow II? F-15? Israeli Air Force?! What rock have YOU been living under?! Those are three of the best games ever made!

What comedy have to do with anything? Even Men in Tights (for the most part) used accurate period weaponry and costuming. With cartoons I'll stick with Looney Toons, and I stay away from Anime, the worst offender on the "You have GOT to be kidding me" meter, and have never been much of a comic reader.

------------------
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2003-07-06, 7:18 PM #31
In most cases, gameplay has precedence over realism, but things like lightsaber whips and claws could not contribute to fun when they are just so absurd.

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Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2003-07-07, 1:12 AM #32
Hey, if he wants to include light whips and claws then by all means let him do it...

It won't affect your enjoyment one little bit, as the bog standard 'EU/non EU' weapons you enjoy will still be there for you to frolic around in...

The claws of the Assassin in Diablo II were very fun; as were the idea of Shredder's claws way back when in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles...

Why mock and deride the 'reality' factor of these weapons when it's in a STAR WARS game to start with??!! It's pure, self-conscious escapism, and to overly analyse it is self-negating as it was created to be a massive melting pot of already existing escapist fictions (ie Arthurian Legend, Eastern martial arts mythology and philosophy)

I love the whole plan; hope you carry it through =)

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2003-07-07, 6:12 AM #33
BTW, forgot to mention that Janes is also THE authority on military technology dating back to I THINK the War of 1812.

Anyway, you might be surprised to hear this, but there IS a grounding in real science in the Star Wars Universe. The engines of the X-wing and Y-wing follow REAL theoretical engine designs (a form of ion propulsion called, I think, electrostatic). Lightsabers and blasters ARE hypothetically possible, just our technology level doesn't have that complex understanding of energy, magnetics, etc.

For that matter look at the design of the X-wing itself: Retro thrusters in the forward faces of the main engines. The engines are arranged to take advantage of differential thrust due to the effects of vacuum on maneuvering (in fact, notice that ALL CANON Star Wars craft, except the Falcon, have MULTIPLE engines all located off the centerline. This is VITAL for maneuvering in vacuum since ordinary control surfaces don't work!) The fact that ships in Star Wars seemingly "fly" like a regular airplane can be explained by something as simple as automatic computer-controlled compensation for the effects of Newtonian Physics. Even the concept of hyperspace is grounded in real scientific theory.

As far as I'm concerned "Because it's Star Wars" is not an acceptable explanation for someone just making things up. Even the technology of Star Wars has a basis in reality. They just don't go to the technobabble lengths to explain it like Star Trek does.

And as a point of order:

The Arthurian legends have a basis in real history (Celtic origin, I believe). This is the primary difference between legend and fantasy: Legends have an origin in historical fact, no matter how much has been embellished.

Mythology is a form of storytelling used by people to explain concepts in nature they can't understand rationally.

Philosophy is asking questions and using rational thought to understand the world and society.

Probably the closest you'll get to Star Wars of the three is philosophy.

------------------
Founder X-wing Alliance Upgrade
http://www.xwaupgrade.com

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[This message has been edited by The Saxman (edited July 07, 2003).]
Founder X-wing Alliance Upgrade
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2003-07-07, 8:12 AM #34
You know, you don't have to take personal offense when someone posts their opinion in a showcase thread that isn't even yours. I know jedikirby would be much happier if people told him what they really think instead of saying "it's fine, SW, do whatever!"

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Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2003-07-07, 9:53 AM #35
That's the problem though, isn't it. The most popular comments people make to criticism around here ARE "It's STAR WARS...It's not real...It's science FICTION," and my personal favorite, "Get out of the house you dork." It's a debate. When someone argues against my point, I make a point back. I only take offense to it when someone tells me I don't have the "authority" to voice my opinion.

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Founder X-wing Alliance Upgrade
http://www.xwaupgrade.com

SaxSoft Productions
http://saxman.xwlegacy.net
Founder X-wing Alliance Upgrade
http://www.xwaupgrade.com

SaxSoft Productions
http://saxman.xwlegacy.net
2003-07-07, 10:00 AM #36
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by The Saxman:
As far as I'm concerned "Because it's Star Wars" is not an acceptable explanation for someone just making things up. Even the technology of Star Wars has a basis in reality. They just don't go to the technobabble lengths to explain it like Star Trek does.</font>


I'm pretty sure most of the explanation was made up after the fact.
2003-07-07, 1:31 PM #37
I find Saxman's posts to be quite interesting, regardless if anyone takes his advice or not.

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http://www.napalmdeathsquad.com
2003-07-07, 1:34 PM #38
Actually I've got a copy of one of the almost-but-not-quite-there blueprints for the X-wing drawn up by Joe Johnston himself and eventually used with some changes to actually BUILD the X-wing effects model and full-scale mock-up on my hard drive. The technobabble was already there before the movies were even made. :-P

You can see them and more than you ever wanted to know about the X-wing at my website.

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Founder X-wing Alliance Upgrade
http://www.xwaupgrade.com

SaxSoft Productions
http://saxman.xwlegacy.net
Founder X-wing Alliance Upgrade
http://www.xwaupgrade.com

SaxSoft Productions
http://saxman.xwlegacy.net
2003-07-07, 2:25 PM #39
The Axe(And Mace)
Why exactly would Jabba's cronies use axes? The meer reason why we've got lightaxes, is because it may be used to bash armor, but since has developed into a fighting form, and a jedi with an axe COULD prove to be a good weapon.

The Whip
This one's a no brainer: Dark Jedi have countlessly used this weapon, and is among one of the most prized weapons of mastery. One in the Krath order able to weild such a weapon, is consider far beyond the skills of many of the members.

The Claws
I admit that this was a fool-hearty idea, but in the same, I think would prove for some interesting gaming aspects. I'm going to hold it off, and install it on a gauntlet item designed for the berserkers of the Paan.

The Lightpole
My own creation. A flip flop, as the saber portion becomes handle, and the handle becomes saber, more or less. one meter of handle, and one foot of saber. A weapon built mostly for show, but if one can master this weapon (As it is greatly weaker then the others) gains a higher respect. Usually a symbol of skill.

Extendable Saber
Simply a pretty fun feature, allowing for player customization. The changing of the length will NOT be something instentanious, but done through menus, as to not have people changing length in mid-fight.

Duel Light Daggers
Simply to put, one of my favorite martial arts fighting technique. Powerful beyond beleive, and since the Paan are rogue Jedi, a fine assassins assets.

As you can see, I actually put thought behind my weapons. I'm exluding claws, but that's it. Everything else stays, end of this 'Argument.' As for the actual SABER SYSTEM, as this is what it's about, what do you think!? I still don't have enough feedback to go with the idea, as it's not something I want to devote time to, just for everyone to hate it!

JediKirby

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Epic: Episode I TC, Epic: Podracing Mod MP/SP, Epic: Starbattles Mod MP/SP
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2003-07-07, 3:19 PM #40
Who cares about the science of a science fiction weapon? Not I. I'm also going to take the old I'll-believe-it-when-I-see-it approach to this little mod of yours. It'd be nice to see another mod finished.

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