As I said before, you might consider looking into kendo as a reference for movement "points" for fighting because that was the source used for lightsaber techniques in the Original Trilogy.

Modern sport fencing already uses a numerical grid system to chart parry and attack positions (which Nick Gillard developed into a personally customized version to use as a reference when choreographing his sword dance in the prequels) so it's a possibility kendo, which basically does for Japanese swordsmanship what sport fencing did with the rapier, has one too.

That'll help maintain the feel of the GOOD lightsaber duels (Maul, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan spinning like tops with cloaks a-flyin' might LOOK spectacular but they wouldn't last a second against the much sounder technique used by old Obi, Luke and Vader in the OT).

I still don't get the idea of the light pole. Are you saying the wielder grips the weapon by the blade and swings it like a club instead? If that's the case then OUCH! While some historical schools, especially Medieval hand-and-a-half sword techniques, detail gripping the sword entirely by its blade and using the hilts as a club real swords aren't made of an energy blade that can cut through anything. There'd be no way to grip the blade without burning your own hands off. That's a problem with lightsabers in general: Some techniques are just impossible to safely do because of the energy blade.

And yes, it IS possible to transfer the techniques developed for using a real bladed axe to a lightsaber, but because ALL lightsabers can burn through armor you lose the major reason for doing so. You'll then have all the liabilities of an axe compared to the sword without the major advantage.

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Founder X-wing Alliance Upgrade
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Actually, if you're wearing robes like they do in EP1/2 (well maybe theirs aren't long enough), a spin right before an attack would be confusing, since your enemy doesn't know where you will strike. You just don't do it when they're on offense.

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Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.

I don't see why Jedi Outcast's saber system isn't good enough.

*gets flamed*

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Television is my only friend.

Uh, that's for JK, not JO.

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Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.

Twirling turns your back on your opponent, and even more importantly takes your EYES off your opponent. Both are generally BAD things to do in a sword fight. It's also harder to keep balanced and the flying robes wouldn't matter much when fighting a trained swordsman. Loose or baggy clothing can help break up the body's shape, but flying robes don't. If you're going to send an article of clothing flying at an opponent you're better off doing it by cloak fighting (carrying a cloak in your free hand) than relying on anything that you're actually wearing.

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Founder X-wing Alliance Upgrade
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Well they get away with the spins because it's all with Jedi, and they don't need eyes, etc.

And robes and cloaks do help more. Someone wearing a baggy shirt and jeans is much harder to get a fix on that a big twirling mass of fabric.

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Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.

First off, I'd like to say I'm not questioning your authority on your suggestions, Saxman. I know the importance of building worlds, systems, believability, etc. even if it's "just fiction." What I am saying is what any person in the entertainment business (a successful one at least) will tell you: If it's not interesting, fun, etc. it won't catch on.

Fiction is so great because it allows us to put even more weight on those aspects instead. While such aspects like the X-Wing might have been accurately designed for the movie, do you think George Lucas (or whomever first thought of the idea) had that in mind? I doubt it. The idea of epic dogfights was probably what they were aiming for when first imagined. True science-fiction is closer to non-fiction because it's premise in their plots are founded on scientific theory (ex. The Time Machine by H.G. Wells, though that's more of a social science issue than a book about a time machine). Star Wars was not created as true science-fiction, even if its fans turned it into such afterwards (making the setting in space does NOT make it sci-fi). Star Wars was created as an epic fantasy.

With that out of the way, the aspect of the Force could greatly affect how a saber duel plays out. How important is it to keep your eyes on your opponent if your sense of the Force can more than make up for it? Perhaps in the real-world, axes were made simply to bash armor, but if they can cut through anything, could not simply the SHAPE of the axe (or any other weapon) bring a different element of combat into the duel? A whole slew of tactics become available with two dagger-types, even if the weight does not affect the speed, what about the DISTANCE? You have to be close to your opponent to use such weapons anyway, wouldn't the use of a dagger make such extreme-close combat easier? Just fighting against someone with a different weapon alone would alter tactics of combat, no?



Kirby's reference to a light pole is that there's a foot of the actual energy blade and 3-ish feet of handle, not that you'd grip the energy blade. I personally think this would only work in-game if each weapon had at least one unique "special attack" in addition to the tic-tac-toe idea.

Also, apart from the clash on Tatooine in Episode 1 between Maul and Qui-Gon (a hasty defense on Qui-Gon's behalf and a surprise on Maul's part), when were they in full robes during battle? I would think Maul wearing all black in a desert would have been worse than simply wearing robes...

As to answer jEDIkIRBY's initial questions and such for this thread (since I was zoned out when I first posted), I think the tic-tac-toe sounds like a solid idea for use of strategy instead of hit-and-run. I think though (to perhaps reflect more of the original trilogy) that "walk" should be needed somehow to more accurately connect swings. I always felt a system similar to the Z-targeting in Zelda would be good in such a saber combat game /shrug/. This system, and the new weapons, I think could only really be best examined after a beta has been made. But I'm sure you knew that already

------------------
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I skimmed that briefly, Geb, and although I do agree that fun things won't catch on, I still think something like a whip or claws are rediculous. It has nothing to do with realism, and everything to do with, lamism, er, yeah.

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Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.

Spinning was quite common in my martial arts weapon classes with anything from broad swords to hand to hand combat. It's a huge part of kata for both as well. The spin moves that martial artists use with weapons aren't just for looks. Whether or not it's practical merely depends on the situation. Taking your eyes off of your opponent for 1/2 of a second is indeed dangerous if you're inexperienced but it is a very commonly used method of attack/defense in martial arts tournaments around the world. With spinning, you must also take into account that you're fighting more than one opponent at a time.

Japanese blademasters wear baggy clothing for a multitude of purposes, most of which pertain to both defensive AND offensive strategy.

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http://www.napalmdeathsquad.com

I'm forced to step in on this one.

Two handed is great for offense, blocking bullets, or chopping wood. It has greater leverage and power, but it has very restricted movement.

One handed has infinite freedom of movement and much greater control over the hilt end, which means parrying, better defense, and being able to do some pretty cool stuff while locking swords. These are the things that win a sword fight.

If you think sword fighting is all about leverage and power, I'll kindly direct you to an anime called "DragonBall Z."

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Brutally honest since 1998

[This message has been edited by Checksum (edited July 08, 2003).]

wait ctrl blocks? i thought it was primary fire and z was secondary fire?

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Fo' Sheezze my Neezze

Anime is HARDLY a reliable source for anything remotely realistic. Need I point out that characters on that show can get hit with a concentrated blast packing more energy than a thermonuclear explosion and not be any worse than a couple scratches?

Two hands actually provides BETTER fine control of the blade. The second hand helps stabilize the weapon, allowing for quicker direction changes. Additionally, two hands makes the parry and guard positions even MORE secure since it's a LOT harder for an opponent to knock your sword out of the way (it does NOT take much force to beat your way inside a one-handed parry).

This is because the wrists are very important in controlling the blade. There's three points of motion on the arm when using the sword: The shoulder, elbow and wrist. The more of the arm you move to strike, the more powerful the blow but the slower the movement. Movements at the shoulder are the slowest, while flicking the wrist is the quickest. However all the weight of the weapon in one hand puts a great deal of strain on the wrist. This can SERIOUSLY slow down how quickly you can change direction during an attack, and speed can mean the difference between deflecting a strike away from you or having your jaw removed. Two hands means you don't have all the weight of the weapon on one hand. You can flick the wrists MUCH more quickly, meaning you can change the direction of an attack, or change from a strike to a parry FAR more quickly.

Also, you don't defend with the hilts of your sword, you try to deflect your opponent's attack with the first third of the blade (also called the "strong"). Better blade control = better control of the parry. The purpose of the hilts, besides to actually hold the weapon and help counterbalance the blade, varies depending on the type of sword and culture it developed from but most often, particularly in the case of European sword arts, is actually an alternate striking surface.

As for range of motion, that's not entirely true. First, because two hands provides finer control of the blade there's less wasted movement. More efficient. A lot of that "freedom" is waste and takes the sword too far out of line which slows your attacks and parries. If you're talking about fancy sword twirls those are show-off moves for before and after a duel ONLY (the sword masters Joachim Meyer and Hans Talhoffen even SPECIFICALLY defined them as such!) and aren't actually used to attack or defend. Second, I've gotten to handle weapons, and the FUNCTIONAL range of motion with two hands is NOT significantly less than one-handed. in fact, there's things you can do with two hands that are just plain IMPOSSIBLE with only one (most one-handed guard positions can be done two-handed. VERY few two-handed guard positions can be assumed with only one).

Now the TYPE of weapon makes a difference. Trying to hold a dagger two-handed is silly. Short-bladed swords are both light enough, and balance close enough the hilts, that they can be easily handled with one hand. Rapiers ALSO are best used one-handed because of the lightness of the weapon, they balance VERY near the hilts, (sometimes those elaborate guards weigh as much as the blade) and the only edge blows are flicking cuts, with the attack coming predominantly from the thrust, which comes mostly from the forearm.

In the case of the lightsaber they were based off the katana (or more technically the wooden practice swords that fill in for the katana). Katanas have a razor-sharp blade so the primary attack isn't going to hack or slash into the target like a European broadsword (which due to the quality of the steel couldn't be sharpened to as fine an edge) but rather a slice executed by pulling THROUGH the attack and drawing blade through the cut. That's VERY difficult to do one-handed. While there are NUMEROUS variations of Japanese sword technique, the nature of the sword will make the draw cut a primary attack in all of them.

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I'd have to agree with Saxman on this matter. I've been to quite a few martial arts demonstrations, classes where I was involved, tournaments, as well as watching a few hundred martial-arts flicks, and would have to say that a blademaster has far more control with 2 hands than 1 (unless of course you're referring to fencing, where the blade is incredibly light). The Jedi in the Star Wars universe use 2-handed defense/attacks for a reason.

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http://www.napalmdeathsquad.com

I'm pretty sure the comment on DBZ was being sarcastic...

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To tell you the truth (being somewhat familiar with martial arts and sword technique myself), studying in theory and logic is fine, but such principles do not always apply to actual occurances.

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Sigs are for n00bs.

[1337 FRNDS_Pommy | 3.14 of 14 | » And-GTx2]

[This message has been edited by Pommy (edited July 09, 2003).]

...and when Check was referring to the 'hilt end' he meant the first one-third of the blade adjacent to the hilt. Not the hilt itself. That would be stupid.

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Sigs are for n00bs.

[1337 FRNDS_Pommy | 3.14 of 14 | » And-GTx2]

You misinterpreted my DBZ thing. I was saying that if you think sword fighting is a shoving match, you'd enjoy DBZ because that's almost all they do.

My reference on sword technique? I've done freestyle for like, half my life, and with a complete absence of rules or regulations, I've found out what works best.

Give it a rest, it's pretty obvious that you don't have any practical experience.

[edit] And what Pommy said - I didn't mean literally defending with the hilt, that's idiotic. I meant that the best defense and most versatile offense comes from free control over the hilt end.

And you think it's easy to beat through one handed defense? That's what strong forarms are good for. And besides, it's not like you just sit there and take it.

I almost swear you got your library of sword knowledge from watching Kenshin.

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Brutally honest since 1998

[This message has been edited by Checksum (edited July 09, 2003).]

Gebohq has certainly read me like a book with his long post there.

The sizes of weapon blades DOES make a difference to technique. An axe may not be for bashing anymore, but for a new technique.

Yes, 3 feet of Handle, one foot of blade.

I'm halfway on realism and fantasy, as I'd like to have a system devoted to realtime physics, it's still got to be fun.

Connecting attacks will be simple, as we can change the walk animation to something to do with weight shifting when in battle. We may also have the 'Lockon' feature displayed in 'GCW', giving a sort of 'Battle Mode' where the player can move his aim onto multiple targets, and enter 'Battle Mode' that way. In any case, transitions will be smooth, and single attacks will be smooth as well, and will also be for multiple attacks (I hope).

I'm with Saxman on single and one handed, for cercumstantual, or 'feel'. Some people may prefer one handed, that's why each stance will have stances to go with them for maximum versitility.

JediKirby

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Epic: Episode I TC, Epic: Podracing Mod MP/SP, Epic: Starbattles Mod MP/SP

This just in from the school of hard knocks - one handed animations are almost infinitely easier to key for.

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Brutally honest since 1998

Actually, I've done freestyle fighting for several years, as well as a little bit of fencing. And yes, I misinterpreted your use of DBZ and hilt-end parrying (incidentally, the only anime I EVER watch is a split-second of morbid curiosity while flipping past Cartoon Network, and all I've learned from it is that it's either nauseatingly overly cute, or just plain ridiculous in the extreme and either way not worth my time. Give me Looney Toons, which doesn't make any pretense about trying to be serious).

First: Until you've fought a real duel and killed someone in a serious fight don't give me any dren about practical experience. You SPAR. Freestyle, kendo, fencing, boffer, whatever. It's SPARRING. There's always limitations and rules for the simple fact of the matter that you can't kill anyone. It could be fake swords, stage swords, full armor, pulled blows. It's not the same as going out and fighting for real where you go home with your shield or on it. I've never done it. And unless you're talking from a cell in the lifer's wing you've never done it.

Second: Works like DiGrassi's "True Arte of Defense" and Joachim Meyer's Fechtbuch exist for a reason (I'd mention George Silver, but "Paradoxes of Defense" was really just anti-Italian propoganda). The techniques in those books (c. 16th centuries for both, I believe) were passed down for centuries from teacher to student by visual example before someone finally wrote them down and they WORKED. They were proven in duels and on the battlefield for CENTURIES.

Martial arts DEVELOP, they're not just created out of thin air and don't exist in a vacuum. Each generation builds on the one before it. They're entirely dependent on the weapon (http://www.thehaca.com/essays/nobest.htm
- a very important work. This should be required reading for Hollywood fight choreographers). You just can't use a Medieval European hand-and-a-half sword like a 19th century cavalry sabre. Anyone who claims they can out-do a thousand years or more of refinement and trial and error by completely ignoring those lessons is either a fool or has an ego the size of Jupiter.

Pommy: Yeah I know, it hard to apply the theory in real life but you learn the theory to the point where you don't HAVE to think about it anymore, you're able to just execute.

It's like any physical activity: without knowing the fundamentals you don't have a strong foundation. No matter WHAT kind of fighting you do, just "finding what works" doesn't cut it.

Here's a little bit of a story from my own experience, both freestyle and fencing:

When you fight someone who's never learned ANY of the fundamentals: footwork, blade positioning, how to attack, defend and counter, they can be a very difficult opponent because their movements are random and hard to anticipate. Their footwork is horrendous, they're off-balance, they over-extend or leave themselves exposed, but they're able to get away with it and win some fights. That gives a lot of people the ILLUSION that they don't need to learn the fundamentals to be good.

Once someone's started to LEARN the fundamentals: footwork, how to carry your weight, etc, they begin to concentrate on the execution. They're easier to fight now because with their attention on getting things right they tend to be more predictable and slower to react. And again, here's where all the guys who've never bothered to learn the basics begin to think they're better because they see how these guys are losing a lot of sparring matches.

But now, after lots of practice the person learning the basics no longer need to think about where their feet are, if their weapon is positioned right, if they're telegraphing their movements. They've got it all down to the point where it just happens. Now they can focus their attention on winning the fight. Those guys who passed up learning the fundamentals are now figuring out that the guys who've been training seriously aren't so easy any more. They're unpredictable, but now they're ALSO working from a strong technical foundation. And those guys, nine times out of ten, are the ones who win the fights.

Myself? I'll admit I'm still more or less in that second stage there. I just don't have the time or space to devote to refining things basics. But I've done it long enough to see guys go through all three: Lucky Newby, Losing but Learning, and Solid Technique (my fondest memory of the first fighting group I belonged to comes from watching a girl who'd been around for a while and taught me a quite a few of the basics of using a tower shield. She was going against one of the newbies their first time fighting and landed FOUR blows in literally a second, one on each arm and leg).

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[This message has been edited by The Saxman (edited July 09, 2003).]

By the way, Saxman, you're making a rather ignorant assumption about anime. You think anime is just what you see on Cartoon Network when flipping chanels? Even all of the anime on Cartoon Network is only a small bit. Even during Adult Swim they could never show some of the better stuff.

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Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.

Before I start, here's another undeniable point - one handed has about 18 inches of range on two handed.

We fight with lightly padded wooden rods, weigh ~3 pounds, about the same as a real sword, hurt like hell too. It's like wrapping a shirt around a baseball bat and hitting someone with it.

Either way, you telling me all this Kendo stuff is like someone reading a book on Karate and trying to convince a seasoned bar fighter.

I tried two handed for the first several years, and after finding it restrictive and short-ranged with bad defense, I switched to one handed and started owning.

I don't have that many things I can honestly say I have a decade of practical experience at, but this one I definitely earned.

Steefu.

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Brutally honest since 1998

[This message has been edited by Checksum (edited July 09, 2003).]

First of all this isn't just kendo stuff, it can be applied to ANY sword art.

Now while the weight of your weapons may be the same you can't guarantee the balance is. And there's a marked difference between what a sharpened edge and a stick do when it contacts human flesh. There's even a difference in the way they handle when they're swung. Would I be correct to assume that you and your friends are careful about targets? Trying to avoid the head and groin, places where you can seriously hurt someone? What about the strikes themselves? Do you pull off or try not to hit full force? Pommel punches? Blows from the hilts? Grappling? Hooking? I need a better idea of how your fights are carried out but there's one thing that's always going to be consistent: There's no way you can fully simulate armed combat without being in a real sword fight. Things that might work for sparring just might get you killed in reality because of all the questions I asked above (for one, the ignoble double-kill is nowhere near as acceptable).

Reach is a bit more complicated...

For one, swords that are designed to be used with one OR two hands will GENERALLY be longer than swords meant to be used strictly one handed. It's not always the case, but most often there's a natural reach advantage (with weapons like greatswords, which can have a blade anywhere from four to five feet long the difference is even GREATER).

Now while this applies to one OR two-handed, you can greatly increase your reach by throwing your weight forward and swinging your trailing foot around in front (I think DiGrassi calls it a full pace). It's an explosive, sudden motion which can be an advantage. You also risk over-extending and seriously unbalancing yourself, which is bad. It's also intended more for rapier which I don't think really applies to what we're discussing.

I've done some experimenting on some things since this debate began. My sword in these experiments is a hand-and-a-half sword with a blade right around a full yard, hilts ~10" long with the grip about 7" and a small wheel pommel, and a total weight ~2-3 lbs (boffer sword in this case as I'm in a small house and there's things I don't want to punctured, anyway since you're not using a real sword the fact mine isn't either in this experiment doesn't make much difference). I'm beginning from a right plough ward (right foot leading, hilts near the knee with the blade out in front and slightly up with the tip roughly at eye level). Nothing handy to measure with so I'm using contact with a wall. Not really scientific but it works well enough.

From this ward position my reach at full extension was roughly identical whether I used one or two hands. Now there are ALTERNATE ward positions that can ONLY be assumed two-handed where reach is diminished without taking a full pace forward to extend, but any ward I can take up with either one or two hands I can about get the same extension.

In addition, my sword can actually gain EXTRA reach two-handed. My trailing hand (in this case my left) is NOT immediately behind my right. In fact it rests on the pommel. When attacking from a ward position with my right foot leading and taking a full pace forward, by releasing my right hand and using the trailing hand to make the attack I gain nearly a FOOT of reach (simply because the trailing hand is farther down on the grip, effectively lengthening the sword). It can be risky because it's a LOT of extension, the sword no longer balances as well and in most people the trailing hand on the sword is the weaker hand but it's still something you can't do fighting one-handed.

Anyway, I'm forgetting the lesson of that article link I posted, and that's the sword itself. What kind of weapon is your sword modeled after? How long is the blade and hilts. Was the sword you were trying to use two-handed the same one or was it a different weapon?

Yes, SOME swords are best used one-handed. Rapiers would be awkward and there's no need to use two hands on a shorter sword anyway. For a long time I've fought sword and shield (nice little weapon, typical Medieval knightly sword, ~30-32" blade, short grip, ~2 lbs. Fast, very nice balance). The sword is easily used one-handed, but it's faster and there's finer control with both. Obviously the hand-and-a-half can go both ways, but is MUCH easier to control two-handed.

Anyway, this conversation has gone WAY off topic and I don't want to hijack this thread anymore than it already has been. If you want I'd be more than willing to discuss it via E-mail.

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Ill just not read all that crap, and just say you are correct... you sure as hell better be if you wrote an entire.... 6 paragraphs about it...

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You don't hug the Cazor... the Cazor hugs You.

I hate to ask this, but what'd you guys think of the saber system!?

I understand ALL of your points, and will discuss them with DP and we will develope what we think, as the designers, what should be included.

I'm wondering if this saber system, the code, itself, is worth it. I'm wondering if any revisions could be made, etc.

So please, stop with the 'OMG I'M RIGHT BECAUSE KENDO R MY BIBLE.' I personally was staying at a monk's monistary for about 2 years (Durring the week I helped out because I was studying Buddhism) and learned a-lot about simple swordplay. So please, I KNOW what saxman's talking about, and he's right, I've never done it myself, but I've seen it done. 2 hands are USUALLY better then one, but some people simply prefer 1 handed combat.

JediKirby

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Epic: Episode I TC, Epic: Podracing Mod MP/SP, Epic: Starbattles Mod MP/SP

"I've seen it done and it's better"

All I can say here is "Hahahah."

Allow me to bring it up again that I have a decade of practical experience - not just training, but practical experience too, and no it's not.

The saber system sounds great, the only thing that would make it nicer is a little mouse control. Then it'd get REALLY complex.

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Brutally honest since 1998

Better yet, figure out that VSIM thing they used for Die by the Sword. GREAT game. Tough to figure out how to make the controls work, but it's pretty fun.

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Founder X-wing Alliance Upgrade
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Crap, you mean you guys aren't going to duel to the death? If you aren't going to be chopping/slicing one anothers limbs off you could at least be so kind as to duel with mopsticks and post the results via MPEG/AVI.

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http://www.napalmdeathsquad.com

You were actually being entertained by that? You seek leetle monkee!

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Founder X-wing Alliance Upgrade
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I'm happy to include Checksum on the Team Epic staff. He's agreed to help out with the Saber System, and while talking to him, we came up with these 40 Animations, THE animations for the saber system:

1-2
1-5
1-4
2-1
2-4
2-5
2-6
2-3
3-2
3-5
3-6
4-1
4-2
4-5
4-8
4-7
5-1
5-2
5-3
5-4
5-6
5-7
5-8
5-9
6-3
6-2
6-5
6-8
6-9
7-4
7-5
7-8
8-7
8-4
8-5
8-6
8-9
9-6
9-5
9-8

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Epic: Episode I TC, Epic: Podracing Mod MP/SP, Epic: Starbattles Mod MP/SP

That simplifies it a bit.

I was under the impression you'd have separate anims for things like, 1-9, 9-7, and the like, which would total it out to 81 anims.

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Brutally honest since 1998

You stole Jim's saber system! Erm... well, glad to see somebody's working on it atleast, Jim's got enough work to do co-producing my game Jim got a good ammount of work done on it believe, perhaps you should see him and see if he'd be willing to lend you the work he has done in exchange for his name in the credit. (By Jim I mean ShaZBot, by the by)

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Clarinetists, unite!

-writer and producer of The Dark Revival
(until I come up with a real name for it)

Well it's actually a pretty common concept.

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Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.

Well, since i just tuned into this forum i htihnk that i might be a little too late to post that when I heard about the light claws, i immeadiatley thought of Fulgore from Killer Instinct. THAT WOULD BE AWESOME! You could just tweak thhe hand-to-hand fighting system. You know, like try to put in some cool stabs and spinning stuff (even though that would be impossible to code). I like the idea of being able to hop around on one leg instead of dying when some one cuts off your foot. You should add a splattering blood function of something. so you can kind of "track" them.

also, about the whole fighting thing, you think anyone cared when JO came out? Think about how some of those moves they do there aren't exactly "good" fighting moves. but they still are effective and are nice to brag about when you kill someone EVEN THOUGH I know that this is for JK. I think you should try to do some shorter weapons instead of the traditional saber to try and mix it up. ya never know. this could eventually turn out to be a TC.

Now that I'm done doin this, I hope all of you can try to keep you posts so they stay on one screen, without me having to scroll down. THNx and have a nice day(er...night)

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