I meant before the whole thing really got started...

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Do you have stairs in your house?

He made some comments/suggestions, and I simply replied with why they were like they were....apparently this wasn't good enough for him, so he pushed the issue further.

Then he came back with HIS version of the texture, demonstrating a gradient. In which I replied that the gradient effect looked terrible (as did the deviation from the design).

It had absolutely nothing to do with ego. It simply had to do with accuracy and staying true to the design and appearence from the movies.

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Try not, do; or do not.

[This message has been edited by Friend14 (edited December 05, 2003).]

We all know you well enough to know the truth.

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Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.

I said I wouldn't get into this, but I suck, so...

<Zuljin> http://forums.massassi.net/html/Forum5/HTML/010703-2.html <--Emon, post and help prove Friend14 he's wrong. I'm trying to show him up so maybe he'll shut up for good... (or something to that effect, I don't remember the exact wording)

Yeah, sounds to me like the ego is on the other side...

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Do you have stairs in your house?

Zully was being cool and trying to help, but Friend14 refused his help, so you get that.

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Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.

Actually, I don't see what the big deal is. Zully suggested something, Friend14 explained why he had it the way it was. That should be that... there's no point in beating it into him, if he disagrees with your critacism he's not going to change it... the whole idea of the showcase forum is to give constructive critism and ideas, which the author can take or leave. Friend14 chose to leave that particular suggestion, attitude like "I want to prove I'm better than him just so he'll shut up" is uncalled for.

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Do you have stairs in your house?

If GBK backs up Friend14 commonly, it's not any different than Zully and S51.

I have absolutely no problem with it, but since you guys are basically the same on opposite sides, don't pick at each other


Friend14: I like the texture alot. Making it a tad more crisp would be nice... it would make the bevels in it appear more...umm sharp... As it is, it seems like the door has gradual curves leading to the heightened portions. If that's what you're goin' for, it's swell.

Zully: Yours is good in the precision department. The sharp edge on the bevel-age makes it appear more metal and less...molded, like adobe or something.


Both textures are quite nice.

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saberopus
oh yeh wlel i jsut gots finesht wiht my morrwoind mod for teh JO An it takes up teh 900 gigabiets of spaec but i wlil not sowh yuo gyz teh scrnshoots becasue we dunat kare wut u gyz tihnk ne1 no wear i kan get ti hostad 4 dounlowd!!!!11!111 --Checksum

I think Zully's more troubled by the general, "Uh, no, that sucks, I know all about texturing, despite my lack of experience." attitude.

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Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.

Sorry, maybe for some reason Massassi isn't loading all the way for me... I didn't see any of that...

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Do you have stairs in your house?

I think both could use a bit more work, but if I had to choose which I prefered right now it would definitely be Zully's as it simply looks much sharper and realistic.

This is not me jumping on any kind of Zully bandwagon, just an honest opinion.

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Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian
Corrupting the kiddies since '97

There is no bloody zul bandwagon. I happen to think Friend is wrong in this situation and would have backed up ANYONE who posted a superior texture. This isn't about zul, it never was.

Oh I agree, I haven't seen anyone else on any kind of bandwagon either...but..you know...GBK.

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Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian
Corrupting the kiddies since '97

The argument isn't about the texture, I agree it's better. Of course it is, Zuljin's been doing it alot longer and more religeously than Friend14... the part I'm pointing out is his motives and arrogant attitude. But that's just me.. this really isn't my fight, I think I'm just bratty and like to pick fights because I have no life. I'm really going to stop this.

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Do you have stairs in your house?

This will be my first and last post on this tainted thread. I agree with Correction. Zully was obviously baiting Friend14, but Friend14 shouldn't have taken the bait. They're both good textures. I'm done here.

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The Matrix: Unplugged

The hell there isnt. Ive posted threads before, showcasing this than and the other level, and I got a bunch of good replies. But then Zul posts, and proclaims that my hard work "sucks". Then, suddenly, everyone "realizes" he was "right". Even those that had previouly posted in favor of the level, reposted echoing support for Zul's opinion. No bandwagon? Sure. And my name is Mickey Mouse.

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Fight the future.

If Zul woulda left this thread the hell alone, Friend14 might have gotten some constructive comments and praise. I think that pretty much proves GBK's point, which I agree with. I'm not saying Zul isn't a nice guy (usually) or that he sucks. I'm just saying to deny that he exhibits a broad influence around here would be almost ridiculous.

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Have a good one,
Freelancer

...this thread has been pretty constructive. Unless I skimmed past all the "that sux dude" posts. Sugar coated ego stroking posts are totally pointless and provide no real input or avenues to improve something. Friend14 doesn't -have- to take Zully's advice but he has certainly given him some ideas to think about which your standard "OMQ that rulz" post fails to do.

Meanwhile Mickey, I'm not going to pretend Zully doesn't have an ego, he does and sometimes I have seen it get out of hand, but this thread is not one of those occassions. Furthermore simply agreeing with Zully does not constitute a bandwagon. If your wounded ego has blinded you to that degree you might want to get it seen to.

Now, back to the topic.

I think it's admirable you were able to do that in Paint friend14, I sure as hell couldn't do that in even PS The biggest change of all I'd like to see to it is just a big more crispness...it just seems very fuzzy to me.

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Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian
Corrupting the kiddies since '97

I just did the design in MsPaint. Less annoying to do per-pixil work in MsPain then it is to do it in PSP or Photoshop, IMO (of course, the fact that I've been using Paint for 12yrs might be part of it).

As for the "crispiness", I wouldn't recommend anyone making it much more crisp then the 'example' I've provided...that it is, if they want to remain fairly close to the films. In-game(warning 56kers):


This is what I originally should of posted as it's basically all you need to customize your own variation:



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Try not, do; or do not.

[This message has been edited by Friend14 (edited December 06, 2003).]

The shadow looks great! It just looks a little funny because it should be protruding from a vertex. Having the shadow come out of nowhere in the middle of an edge like that doesn't make sense.

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Have a good one,
Freelancer

Yeah, realized that after I did it. The way it works out, the shadow on the door should actually be quite a bit lower.

BTW, After comparing a previous build to the later build, I've noticed the slight bluriness ya'll were refering too on the example texture. It occurred when I took the shadow out. I appologize for this and have updated it with a corrected version (Blurriness corrected, as well as, some other small areas that were bothering me. There's still a redish tint at the top that's bothering me, but...it's only an example. If someone wants me to fix it though, I will).

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Try not, do; or do not.

[This message has been edited by Friend14 (edited December 06, 2003).]

There are a certain number of trolls who just love pissing people off. I came in contact with one named Twinks a while back who would make it his business to post on every one of my threads and insult me. People would agree with what he said (if not his manner), much like what you're describing, but I never declared there to be a "Twinks bandwagon".

I'm not saying I agree with zul's abbrasive manner, but occasionally he does include a spot or two of constructive criticism in between insults. With this in mind, isn't it possible that some people simply didn't REALIZE certain things, then agree with them when he mentions them (you might also notice that next to no one but zul says your stuff outright sucks)?

I've had several experiences with Friend in the past, in all of which he got into rather assinine arguments because he tried to pretend he was a master at something he really had only a minimal understanding of. It's not that he's not the best texture maker in the world that bothers me (I happen to suck at making textures myself), it's that he THINKS he is. That just happens to annoy me. I'm not jumping on the "zul bandwagon", I'm jumping on the "try futilely to knock some sense into Friend bandwagon".

You guys are arguing over a door...I think both look great but honestly, how much time do you sit there while playing and look at a door? In a game I wouldn't be able to distinguish Zul's door from Friend's door unless I sat there and looked at it...good job both of you, but I think you're all obsessing over it a little much.

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The Fulcrum
Aniob Eysai - Lowca Server
Smuggler 0/0/0/0
Pistoleer 0/0/0/0
Ranger 2/1/1/1
Creature Handler 1/2/0/0

Super S51, I have in no way EVER even pretended to be a Master at anything in JK. There have been a number of things that I have showcased where I was only showcasing a part of, say, a model, but I recieved crtique about the model as a whole. Now, in general, this isn't a problem. However, in 95% of the cases where they point out something wrong about something I wasn't even particularily showcasing, I already knew that it was wrong. When I reply with "why it's like that in the screenshots", people like Zul see that as an opportunity to go off on me. Now, in saying that, part of this my fault as I should be more specific as to what exactly I'm showcasing, I take for granted that idea of "if it looks wrong, they'll know I know it's wrong and will ignore it" (take what I originally posted in this thread, for example. I thought it was obvious it was simply a base texture, which is why I never said anything. It wasn't until after MBegger posted that realized that perhaps it wasn't so obvious. I'll be more careful in the future). As a number of people can tell you, I'm very picky when it comes down to details. I'll sit there and tweak some very small insignificant thing to death even though no body will ever notice, simply because it bothers me.

There's also a way in which a lot of people give critique on these boards that really put me off (not just in my threads, but in just about every thread). In this case in particular, Zul stated his opinion very matter of factly by saying "There should also be a gradient that goes down the door." Now, I've been looking at/studying Tatooine architecture for well over two years. And I can safely say with confidence that it SHOULD NOT have a gradient. That was his opinion, which is fine. But he acted like he knew what he was talking about and knew better then I did, when he didn't.

When Zul replied with "Looks fine to me. But what do I know, considering this is what I do?", it makes any comment I make after that sound arrogant. It makes me sound arrogant because people assume just because Zul has been posting texture here pretty much since the beginning, and this is my first posting of textures, then I'm just a n00b texture artist and he's the master texture artist and he knows best just because that is what he does. This, in turn, produces responses such as this:


This is funny, because texturing was the first thing I ever did when I first started editing games in 97. But, I guess this was the kind of response Zul was hoping for:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-emotion.html
"...many Ad Hominems will be very similar to Appeals to Emotion and, in some cases, both fallacies will be committed. As an example, a leader might attempt to invoke hatred of a person to inspire his followers to accept that they should reject her claims. The same attack could function as an Appeal to Emotion and a Personal Attack. In the first case, the attack would be aimed at making the followers feel very favorable about rejecting her claims. In the second case, the attack would be aimed at making the followers reject the person's claims because of some perceived (or imagined) defect in her character."

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Try not, do; or do not.

[This message has been edited by Friend14 (edited December 06, 2003).]

Looks like a low detail, pixellated door. Zul went in the right direction and added lots of detail, which makes his texture all the better. Your texture has a decent base, but because it is low on detail, not to mention kind of fuzzy, it looks like your regular bland JK texture.

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[This message has been edited. Deal with it.]

You are reading FAR too deeply into this, Friend. zul is in no way a leader, nor am I his follower. There's no larger motive at work here, we're not conspiring to screw you over. When I say, for example, that it might behoove you to take zul's advice given how much better his texture turned out than yours (regardless of whatever you wanted people to be looking at within your showcase), I'm saying this simply because I feel it's true. Which then brings me to the issue of zully's supposed experience.

I know for a fact that zul is a pretty crappy artist in general. He doesn't take classes, he has little or no motivation to do anything to improve his skills. (I say all of this, of course, with the utmost love and respect ) What he does well is make textures. Are his textures perfect? Of course not. He has, however, gotten rather good at making decent, usable textures rather quickly. I know nothing about your background, I'd never seen you post a texture before, and I drew a conclusion about your skill level based on what you posted. I'm not saying you're a newb, I'm not saying zul is "better" than you, I'm simply saying that, based on what each of you posted (and here I refer more to the second, more worn version you posted than the original), zul came off as a much more skilled texture artist. With this in mind, I was bothered when you completely rejected his suggestions. If I've misjudged your abilities, it was simply because of the extremely limited pool of evidence I had to draw from.

As a final thought, maybe you should take several things into account. First, you might anticipate that people are going to misunderstand the purpose of the bland base texture; with this in mind perhaps it would be better to post the texture at a later stage in its evolution or (as you've said) better explain WHY it looks so dull and empty. Second, "authenticity" isn't everything. I understand that you're trying to get as close to the look of the movies as you possibly can here, but perhaps that's not the most important thing. No one plays a level while looking at stills of the actual Tatooine, and no one's going to fault you for replacing something that's a tad closer to the movie with something that just plain looks better. Finally, if many people, the majority of whom have no personal investment in the situation, say that zul's texture happens to look better, maybe they're on to something that you simply don't see.

"After all, millions of Chinese people can't all be wrong."

[This message has been edited by Super S51 (edited December 06, 2003).]

First of all, I just want to clear one thing up, I never said he was a leader, but he's certainly an instigator(in application to the fallicy).



He did his "version" before I did my "example." I've already explained, ad nauseum, why I rejected his suggestions. It's for "Accuracy Only" that I rejected his idea. Some people might be going for authenticity. I didn't want them to get the wrong idea that they should apply a gradient to achieve this, because that would be inaccurate. The base texture is for anyone to do what they want with. If the want to add a gradient, go for it! I sure as hell am not going to try and stop them if that's what they want to do. But issue with Zul, is that he implied that that's what it just HAD to have. The "example"(not sure how much harder I can stress that it was mearly an example), shows, for those interested in consitancy between the films and their level, the maximum amount of detail deviation that should occur. I say that, not as an opinion, but from a very long time of studying the architecture. Here again, I'm not saying that's the route anyone HAS to go with it, but that's mearly my recomendation.

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Try not, do; or do not.