i cannot make small levels... my mind wont let me, i hate small levels too much....

all suggestions would be appreciated.. if you suggest something, try to make it specific.. i.e.:

NO - change the landing pad texture.
YES- change the landing pad texture to one with shiny sparkles on it...

so give me your ideas please..

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Ok. My suggestion, which may sound harsh:

Delete this thread. Then make practice levels, which you don't showcase. After a while, start making a *real* level. It's the same as i did, and my first showcase was very well-received.

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i am using this as a learning experience, so, anyways, i need suggestions of what to change in the level to make it "good"...

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Walk outside. Look around. See how it should be. Walk inside. Make it.

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What GothiX said.

If you insist on keeping this, here's what you could do to at least improve the areas you showcased a bit.

first screeny:

The area looks insanely dull. It's a big square hall. Add detail to the walls and change the texture since it doesn't do very well. The TIE's should be placed in racks. there should be cranes around the x-wings for unloading r-units and the like. You said the hanger had a roof that could open. well a roof so big would probably collaps under it's own weight, make guidancerails which are supported by supportbeams.
How do the bikes get out? there should be a tunnel or somethin like it leading out.
There are no lightsources yet it's really bright, I doubt a pitchblack sky could give so much light... make a lot of lights around the place. (This is a landingzone after all there should be lots of lights)
The outside area is FLAT. It's so f*ing flat I can't put it to words. If you insist on making an outside level, don't make it flat like that. It's insanely dull, looks horrible and is absolutely no fun to play in.

screeny 2:
I assume this is your room. Well, I don't have to take a look at your room to tell it looks nothing like this. Get rid of that disgusting solidcolour 'texture' you put on the walls. Add lighting! It's completely lit, not a hint of shadow!

screeny 3:

Again it's very dull and the texture repeats about a hundred times before the mipmap won't let me distinguish it anymore. boring...

Screenshot 4:

I had this dream once, where I was in this void, kinda like in the matrix, you know, the whole white thing. Well that looked way better than this.

Screenshot 5:

uh wow a hint of architecture in the distance. Why is there a immense pillar standing in the middle of kilometers of nothingness? All the other comments apply on this screenshot too.

There's your specific suggestions.

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Call me Vedder.
Author of: A Pirate's Tale (Mots SP)
APT homepage
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<phantom> You're always going to be aloser if you attempt to aspire to massassi standards.
<phantom> They're a bunch of socially inadequate <beep> whores who have little or no lives.

the ground has already been changed to a desert sand texture, the skybox is now a desert skybox, the swoops and at-st get out of the hanger throught the use of a lift at the opposite side, the pillar is actually a control tower with a elevator running to the top of it, that looks over the landing pad.the walls in my room only LOOK solid white because of the compile i used (fullvis(nolight)), they are actually a stucco texture.

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Well you should have told us that you used nolight in the first place. Compile in full light and show us more.

Instead of trying to explain yourself, go on and work

My tip is: You have to know what you want to do, befor you do it. And than just try to put your imagination into the game, I usualy go use drawings for this, at least lately, but if you have a good imagination you don't need to...

But don't try to explain yourself - you can't get rid of our critism by doing this. If you make it better, you can.

No - you can't ever, but you get the idea, yeah?

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My levels

www.i.hate.matyy.de

(+maeve|starcraft) 'round' breasts are rather rare
(+Matyy) i love boxes
(+Oberfeldwebel) Yes, we know Matyy, We've seen your levels

You can't make massassi's critisism go away, just like you can't make the night go away.

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Call me Vedder.
Author of: A Pirate's Tale (Mots SP)
APT homepage
----
<phantom> You're always going to be aloser if you attempt to aspire to massassi standards.
<phantom> They're a bunch of socially inadequate <beep> whores who have little or no lives.

Wow, a lot of people here are jerks, plain and simple. No way around it. I'm not going to name names, but there are a lot. Hatchyack, I like the progress on the level so far. It looks a lot more fun than most of the crap your criticizers release, and I mean it.

You've given a lot of thought to a really cool-sounding level. Until they give you constructive criticism, don't worry too much about what they say. Just make it the way you want it. While the less judgemental among us are having a blast in your level, the others will still be dukin' it out in their tiny eyecandy default boxes of death..

[This message has been edited by Freelancer (edited October 21, 2003).]

I wasnt tring to be a jerk. I was saying that he shouldnt have made us hope for a really nice looking level then give us something less than Jk-quality archi. Its the truth, not being mean. Its how people interpret the truth that makes it seem 'mean'.

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There are two asses in Massassi... and I'm one of them.
The Matrix Unplugged|The Valley of the Jedi Tower|Smaug's Lair

I don't recall hatchyack ever claiming his level had x amount of detail per square meter.. let's take a look, shall we?



Nope, never did he hype up his level to be something it wasn't. Furthermore, the same post in which he posted his screenshots, he said:

But I'm sure that his opinion and forethought to let us know this didn't matter any to you, because you don't even have to beta level to tell someone it's crap! It must be a god-given gift..

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Have a good one,
Freelancer

You are very right, Freelancer. I don't have to beta this to tell you it's crap.

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OH MY GOD. hatchyak, let me just say, I like you a whole lot. When I joined massassi a year ago and posted my crappy first level, i didn't get replies NEAR as bad as the ones you are getting. IT DIDN'T HAVE A SKYBOX!!! I DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO MAKE A SKYBOX!!!

people just said: hey, your skybox is applied incorrectly... and i learned, and fixed it.

you've gotten a beginner's hold on radiant, and made a level, with basica architecture. That's VERY good. I don't think some people remember how daunting it was to see the great stuff others made, and then realize how little you really know. Well, when I posted bad stuff, people didn't bash me, or say anything like:

1) you shouldn't have posted this
2) you should wait till you do something better
3) don't say it's good cuz it sucks

no... back then they encouraged us. So I'm just trying to do what little I can now to encourage you, because once you get proficient with radiant, you'll be able to take your great ideas and DO something great with them.

I also like you because, unlike many other new mappers... (and some veteran mappers *coughdarkocough* you didn't just say 'i give up!' or 'i hate you all'!)... you accepted what they said and kept on working.

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saberopus
oh yeh wlel i jsut gots finesht wiht my morrwoind mod for teh JO An it takes up teh 900 gigabiets of spaec but i wlil not sowh yuo gyz teh scrnshoots becasue we dunat kare wut u gyz tihnk ne1 no wear i kan get ti hostad 4 dounlowd!!!!11!111 --Checksum

Look at the thread title. Also, in one of his posts:


Notice I also never said you need x amount of detail for us to be dissapointed. It just has to look somewhat good, and he said it was 'sweet', wich normally means more than the average quality.

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There are two asses in Massassi... and I'm one of them.
The Matrix Unplugged|The Valley of the Jedi Tower|Smaug's Lair

overly high opinion of work? Let's tell him he sucks. Sarcasm in response to intense criticism? Let's tell him he sucks. That's directed at no one in particular.

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saberopus
oh yeh wlel i jsut gots finesht wiht my morrwoind mod for teh JO An it takes up teh 900 gigabiets of spaec but i wlil not sowh yuo gyz teh scrnshoots becasue we dunat kare wut u gyz tihnk ne1 no wear i kan get ti hostad 4 dounlowd!!!!11!111 --Checksum

dang... missed 2000 posts... and 2003 posts....

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saberopus
oh yeh wlel i jsut gots finesht wiht my morrwoind mod for teh JO An it takes up teh 900 gigabiets of spaec but i wlil not sowh yuo gyz teh scrnshoots becasue we dunat kare wut u gyz tihnk ne1 no wear i kan get ti hostad 4 dounlowd!!!!11!111 --Checksum

Cazor:

It all depends on your definition of "sweet". Being around here for a long time, I know that most of the showcase Massassians are pretty shallow when it comes to this definition. Believe it or not, this so-called elite ring of Massassians is among the minority (in mapping tastes). You encourage each other to release hyper-detailed DM boxes of death. The level gets an automatic affirmative rating as long as there's enough "eye-candy".

It could be a box with sweet architecture, yet it could get one hundred times better replies than hatchyack has gotten, who has all the basics of a good map in place (it's a beta, after all). Your comments are just unwarranted, and based on a very shallow definition of what a level should be.

I was especially horrified by these statements:



- I don't recall reading too many suggestions that could improve his level. Least of all from you, unless you can count "The truth is that the textures ARE horrible and that they NEED to be changed if you want people to like the level." to be a suggestion.

- You mention that there exists a condition by which an author who posts on this forum can be legitimately flamed. You would be mistaken. Unfortunately, this rule has been broken multiple times on this thread.

- I've never been able to understand the mentality that you're making a level for 'ratings' and so other people will like it. I just.. don't see why if you're making a level, you must bend your will to what everyone else thinks should be done. Two different mentalities, I guess.. But it's my personal opinion that that which comes from within is always of higher quality than that which has been unduly externally changed.

" . . . it doesnt matter what you think is cool, it matters what we think is fun and appealing." I just.. gahh. I can't believe you said that.

Omicron88:



Hah, I can't remember the last time anyone said something like this; especially when the author has clearly stated it's a beta. At any rate, it's your loss.

gothicX:



So.. this isn't a real level? By the way: I think he has more things to be concerned with at this point than how well his showcase post will be received; that is, unless his only purpose in posting this thread was because he was looking for praise, like so many others here.. (OT: these are the people that never release anything, BTW) Being a little new, he probably didn't realize the ridiculous characteristics of what a "good" level is around here.

hatchyack:

I think the best suggestion you've been given so far was by SilentSavur I think, who said getting some terrain and some trees would be a good idea, if you haven't been planning on it for later compiles already. I like your progression through the shots, most of all the last one. Maybe you could scatter a few small "sub-bases" throughout the map like that, to break it up a little. Of course, as Naythn pointed out also, a lot of the texture problems will be fixed when you do a light compile. Keep us posted on the level! I'm interested in how it turns out.

[This message has been edited by Freelancer (edited October 21, 2003).]

Freelancer... you dont make maps for yourself, you make them for the people who play them. If you 'cant belive i said that' then you need to wake up and realize that mappers make maps for the people who play the games, not to make themselves look good or any of that. It for the fans.

[edit]oh and this 'I just.. don't see why if you're making a level, you must bend your will to what everyone else thinks should be done.' is the wrong attitude. Once again, you arent supposed to make a map to only what you think is fun, it matters what the thousands of people who are going to play the map will like. If you think a level of inside of a cardboard box is fun, and you decide to make it even though a lot of people wont like the idea... then theres no point in even making the map for yourself because there is no gain of anything for anyone[/edit]

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There are two asses in Massassi... and I'm one of them.
The Matrix Unplugged|The Valley of the Jedi Tower|Smaug's Lair

[This message has been edited by Cazor (edited October 21, 2003).]

Those two reasons for mapping are not mutually exclusive by any means. That wasn't my argument at all.. Mapping for the praise is the worst reason ever to do it, but this is a little off-topic.

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Have a good one,
Freelancer

Praise? I just said that you do it so people like the maps you make. Not because only you think it is a good idea. I didnt say (or didnt mean to infer) that anyone maps for praise... its so that people like what you made and have a fun time.

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There are two asses in Massassi... and I'm one of them.
The Matrix Unplugged|The Valley of the Jedi Tower|Smaug's Lair

[This message has been edited by Cazor (edited October 21, 2003).]

By now this is just a matter of conflicting philosophies, but I'll try to explain it anyway. For one, I believe that there was in fact a "gain of something for someone", if even that someone is only yourself. You've conceived an idea and carried it out, increasing your capacity to do it again. It involves a totally different mindset; one that believes there's a benefit to mapping, even if in isolation.

This is why http://www.df-21.net exists, is it not?

The second part of this idea is that if you thought it was a good idea to make such a level, chances are there are others out there who feel the same way. This would by why JHS has, by *far*, been downloaded the most number of times on this website. While group 'A', such as Massassians, might feel that the level is "noob" material or is ugly, group 'B', such as zoners, feel otherwise.

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Have a good one,
Freelancer

And there are apparently more zoners that download levels like JHS from massassi than massassians do, so the author of JHS did a good job of picking something that the majority will like. I dont see your point.

[edit]and i didnt say that just because the author thinks its a good idea, means that its a bad idea. If the author thinks it is, along with others than its a good idea. Never said it wasnt[/edit]

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There are two asses in Massassi... and I'm one of them.
The Matrix Unplugged|The Valley of the Jedi Tower|Smaug's Lair

[This message has been edited by Cazor (edited October 21, 2003).]

Refuting that thought was (most of) my point, so I'm glad to see we're in agreement there. I guess what it ultimately boils down to is this: you're trying to tell me why I map, which I don't like.

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Have a good one,
Freelancer

When i say 'you' i mean something like 'one' or 'everyone'. Im bad with 1st person and 3rd person crap... just ask my english teacher.

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There are two asses in Massassi... and I'm one of them.
The Matrix Unplugged|The Valley of the Jedi Tower|Smaug's Lair

That's pretty much what I should have used in place of "you/I" as well. I was just personalizing it a little bit for clarity.

[This message has been edited by Freelancer (edited October 21, 2003).]

What i ment with the post of a "real" level, is that this looks very much like a random test map I have on my harddisk. And then I mean the ones for JO, a few of the first ones I made. I mean; a map can have excellent gameplay, but if it looks like a 8-year old game, then sorry, but people will hardly play it. It also is why i suggested him to start with a small map, but his mind won't let him, he claims. Well I'm sorry to say, but there are people whos minds don't let them play m,aps like this, all that plain. With a small map, you can focus on detail, learn how to succesfully implement it, and then use your acquired knowledge on a large map. Yes, this will take some time, but who cares about that? it isn't about how fast you are, it's about the quality of the maps you make.

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Sorry Freelancer, but you can't tell me that is sweet. It's a beginning, and we critisize it, so he will be better. Perhaps some of us are a bit harsh, but life is no candy, eh? The only thing that won't help hatchy... is your disussion if we are right or wrong. If we tell him it's not that bad, we lie and he won't improve...

And people who can't make levels are also allowed to critisize it! Since when is everyone writer in gaming-magazines a game design professional?

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My levels

www.i.hate.matyy.de

(+maeve|starcraft) 'round' breasts are rather rare
(+Matyy) i love boxes
(+Oberfeldwebel) Yes, we know Matyy, We've seen your levels

I appreciate all the support, freelancer and saberopus, even though cazor and others may be asses, they are still major opinions to consider *note consider* because they are people too. i may not listen to all of their opinions, but every so often they have a good point, (and they also help me out with alot of my problems...)

Anywho, the level is set on sort of a desert plateau, so trees would look kind of out of place (to me at least..), i could put a few maybe around the bases, i dont know if that would look alright or not, (take it and run with that idea...).
I guess eventually im gonna have to give in and try to make some terrain.. ive got that easygen thingy now, but i havent tried it...

THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN CHANGED:
1. i have added automated turbolasers to the top of each base, so that if you want to be able to get to the other fort, either by air or ground, you will have to use skill and TEAMWORK to take out the turbolases first (a good idea is to have a team member hop in an xwing and take them out while a guy on the ground stays out of range until it is clear), therefore adding to the strategy involved. ALSO, if the other team wants to bomb the fort, the turbolasers force the opposing teams tie-bomber to fly high enough to be out of range (which is fairly high), making it very difficult to accurately place the bombs due to the height and the veiw angle of the tie bomber.

my ultimate vision for this level is that 8 people on each team with one guy(the leader of each team) in his respective control tower, can direct the movements of the others, two can be in the air giving air support, with another in a tie-bomber dropping BOMBS on the other fortress, while guys on the ground launch an offensive using atsts and swoops.

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perhaps you could add a little oase

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My levels

www.i.hate.matyy.de

(+maeve|starcraft) 'round' breasts are rather rare
(+Matyy) i love boxes
(+Oberfeldwebel) Yes, we know Matyy, We've seen your levels

hmm maybe, it might stand out though in the middle of the level all by its lonesome... but thats what oasises are right? maybe i could put health, sheilds and bacta pickups in it too... does ja have a palm tree model?also, about the terrain, im afraid it will make landing the vehicles anywhere hard, because of the unevenness of it. and also (for example) it might make it look like your ship is only resting on the nose gear on top of a dune..

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Then why not make landing pads randomly spread??

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wouldnt that look kind of out of place in a desert?
*NEW IDEA*
Do you think my map might look cooler if i made it cell-shaded?

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No. Then it would look even more plain, and the vehicles would be even more laggy (if you make em cellshaded).

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Hmm, I don't know gothix

if he makes a big cellshaded landscape, that could give it the feeling of tron

But you need some random structures... something to break up the monotony (i don't know if this is an english word )

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My levels

www.i.hate.matyy.de

(+maeve|starcraft) 'round' breasts are rather rare
(+Matyy) i love boxes
(+Oberfeldwebel) Yes, we know Matyy, We've seen your levels

yeah, i think the cell shaded idea is not good. it just wouldnt feel right..
like what kind of random structures?

ALSO.. how do i add the cloaking device pickup into my level? no one is answering..

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cel shading is all the rage these days

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saberopus
oh yeh wlel i jsut gots finesht wiht my morrwoind mod for teh JO An it takes up teh 900 gigabiets of spaec but i wlil not sowh yuo gyz teh scrnshoots becasue we dunat kare wut u gyz tihnk ne1 no wear i kan get ti hostad 4 dounlowd!!!!11!111 --Checksum

I guess, if you use cel right, it will look good. But cel-shading your level thats a loong time..

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"The Tenloss Disruptor was outlawed throughout the galaxy because it's such a stupid gun"

The problem with this level as I see it is that it's just a big, unlit box with some rooms at either end. The gameplay you speak of appears to come from the vehicles themselves, rather than the level. I would suggest using GenSurf to create some interesting terrain, and most certainly lighting it. Also, the textures in your room ARE too bright, no matter what anyone may say. It's simply impossible to create a surface that looks like that. There will always be a texture on the wall, unless you had it laminated or something. That texture will always leave tiny shadows, plus, unless you have a miniature sun inside your room, it just won't be perfectly white. So work on that. Find some textures on the internet. Your concept is good, it's just the implementation that's flawed. Good luck, and I look forward to seeing what you come up with next.

The level looks good to me but the res is so bad its hard to tell.

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