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Thread: Did we discuss this?...

  1. #41
    Abrams is a huge Evangelion fan and Rey is really a clone of Shmi, Padmé or Leia. Probably Shmi because none of the others was much of a mother-figure.
    Sorry for the lousy German

  2. #42
    Can you even imagine how high her Midi-chlorian count is?!

  3. #43
    To be fair, I think it's necessary for there to be a big reveal about Rey in Episode VIII, in order for it to rhyme with Episode (VIII - III).

  4. #44
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    There was a big reveal about Luke Skywalker in ESB without having to make the entire previous movie about how mysterious and powerful and special Luke was.

  5. #45
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    Speaking of Red Letter Media, do they want anyone to enjoy anything? People go on about how great their reviews are and on the money/succinct despite the fact that they all seem to be as long as the actual film they're reviewing and do nothing but contribute to the legions of wankers posting "Here's 100 reasons why [x] is terrible!"

    Where's all the people that are actually passionate about things they like rather than the bellends that just love to dump on everything?

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconfish View Post
    Where's all the people that are actually passionate about things they like rather than the bellends that just love to dump on everything?
    Are you suggesting that people who are driven to diatribes over movies, who care about the medium and the characters enough that criticizing those films has become their career, aren't passionate about movies?

    Instead of passion, did you mean uncritical acceptance? Because people who uncritically accept badly made movies because they're "fun" generally don't care enough about movies to record videos about them.
    Last edited by Jon`C; 10-18-2016 at 05:06 PM.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconfish View Post
    Speaking of Red Letter Media, do they want anyone to enjoy anything? People go on about how great their reviews are and on the money/succinct despite the fact that they all seem to be as long as the actual film they're reviewing and do nothing but contribute to the legions of wankers posting "Here's 100 reasons why [x] is terrible!"

    Where's all the people that are actually passionate about things they like rather than the bellends that just love to dump on everything?
    If you feel you shouldn't enjoy something just because someone criticized it, then that's your problem?

  8. #48
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    The "movies are all great, everything is great" YouTube critic channel. Two subscribers: one is the host's mother, the other appears in the videos, neither of them watch the videos.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon`C View Post
    There was a big reveal about Luke Skywalker in ESB without having to make the entire previous movie about how mysterious and powerful and special Luke was.
    This was not by design. At this point George Lucas had no idea Luke was going to end being Vader's son. However, this point further loses strength when you consider that Luke was already special in other ways:
    • Son of a Jedi, a "cunning warrior" and the "best star pilot in the galaxy"
    • An accomplished pilot
    • The force was strong with him (according to Vader in the Death Star trench)


    Considering the limitations of vision that GL had, I would say it is fair to conclude that Luke would have been made more special if GL knew he would be making TESB.

    Unlike the OT, the ST has been planned in advanced. I'm pretty sure the parallels to Luke are there to mislead us.
    Nothing to see here, move along.

  10. #50
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    It would REALLY catch people off guard when they reveal Darth Jar Jar in the next movie.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by SF_GoldG_01 View Post
    This was not by design. At this point George Lucas had no idea Luke was going to end being Vader's son. However, this point further loses strength when you consider that Luke was already special in other ways:
    • Son of a Jedi, a "cunning warrior" and the "best star pilot in the galaxy"
    • An accomplished pilot
    • The force was strong with him (according to Vader in the Death Star trench)


    Considering the limitations of vision that GL had, I would say it is fair to conclude that Luke would have been made more special if GL knew he would be making TESB.

    Unlike the OT, the ST has been planned in advanced. I'm pretty sure the parallels to Luke are there to mislead us.
    Skywalker has an uncommon ability, but there is absolutely nothing in ANH which suggests that he is unique or has a special destiny. He is a skilled pilot because he spent most of his life tooling around in a T-16, next of kin to an X-Wing. He is strong with the force because of heredity, and we are never told whether it is a rare trait or not.

    Most importantly, unlike Rey, Luke is initially given a plausible origin story which we never have reason to question. Rey was never given any origin story and we are deliberately left wondering where she comes from. The reveal in ESB was powerful precisely because it came from nowhere, but Rey's eventual reveal will have absolutely no drama because everybody knows it is going to happen.

    And while I don't disagree that early Star Wars was good mostly by accident, the reason they were good doesn't really change the fact that they are, and that Episode 7 isn't.

  12. #52
    What I really like about the first Star Wars movie was that it works on a few different levels, most of which don't have anything to do with the sequels. Alec Guinness said that the film had a certain innocence to it, which he found uplifting. That said, he recounted in later years the following story:

    A refurbished Star Wars is on somewhere or everywhere. I have no intention of revisiting any galaxy. I shrivel inside each time it is mentioned. Twenty years ago, when the film was first shown, it had a freshness, also a sense of moral good and fun. Then I began to be uneasy at the influence it might be having. The bad penny first dropped in San Francisco when a sweet-faced boy of twelve told me proudly that he had seen Star Wars over a hundred times. His elegant mother nodded with approval. Looking into the boy’s eyes I thought I detected little star-shells of madness beginning to form and I guessed that one day they would explode.

    “I would love you to do something for me,” I said.

    “Anything! Anything!” the boy said rapturously.

    “You won’t like what I’m going to ask you to do,” I said.

    “Anything, sir, anything!”

    “Well,” I said, “do you think you could promise never to see Star Wars again?”

    He burst into tears. His mother drew himself up to an immense height. “What a dreadful thing to say to a child!” she barked, and dragged the poor kid away. Maybe she was right but I just hope the lad, now in his thirties, is not living in a fantasy world of secondhand, childish banalities.

  13. #53
    Alec Guinness gets a pass (as does Peter Cushing), he starred in so many "higher art" movies with great performances that being solely known for Star Wars by several generations was an understandable issue for him.

    It's like I made TODOA but was only known for making comics about farting iguanas.

    .

    Actually, that wouldn't be that bad. Better get working on that.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon`C View Post
    Skywalker has an uncommon ability, but there is absolutely nothing in ANH which suggests that he is unique or has a special destiny. He is a skilled pilot because he spent most of his life tooling around in a T-16, next of kin to an X-Wing. He is strong with the force because of heredity, and we are never told whether it is a rare trait or not.

    Most importantly, unlike Rey, Luke is initially given a plausible origin story which we never have reason to question. Rey was never given any origin story and we are deliberately left wondering where she comes from. The reveal in ESB was powerful precisely because it came from nowhere, but Rey's eventual reveal will have absolutely no drama because everybody knows it is going to happen.

    And while I don't disagree that early Star Wars was good mostly by accident, the reason they were good doesn't really change the fact that they are, and that Episode 7 isn't.
    Fair enough, but I still think Rey's big reveal can be very surprising if it ends up being something very unexpected (yet still plausible).

    I think the reason Rey has a different origin story (where they tell you how special she is, like you say) is in part due to how films are made today, but also in part due to the fact that she has a 3 part arch that has already been planned out.
    There is also another reason: if they had made her origin in this first film as being nothing special, it could easily backfire on them. Retconning does not work most of the time. It would also be far too much of a parallel to Luke.

    I keep holding on to the idea that Rey will surprise in an unexpected way, that probably will not top the "No, I am your father" moment, but will be good enough to move us to IX with plenty of drama.

    I'm pretty sure she is not Luke's daughter.
    Nothing to see here, move along.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by SF_GoldG_01 View Post
    Fair enough, but I still think Rey's big reveal can be very surprising if it ends up being something very unexpected (yet still plausible).

    I think the reason Rey has a different origin story (where they tell you how special she is, like you say) is in part due to how films are made today, but also in part due to the fact that she has a 3 part arch that has already been planned out.
    There is also another reason: if they had made her origin in this first film as being nothing special, it could easily backfire on them. Retconning does not work most of the time. It would also be far too much of a parallel to Luke.

    I keep holding on to the idea that Rey will surprise in an unexpected way, that probably will not top the "No, I am your father" moment, but will be good enough to move us to IX with plenty of drama.
    I think the mistake, at least from storytelling perspective, is the assumption that there needs to be some big reveal at all, and even more so that it needs to be a parentage reveal. Like Jon said, it doesn't matter how "unexpected" the content of the reveal is, knowing that there is one is yawn-worthy in this era of movies that are constantly including them. I get douche chills when I start to feel like a story beat is being written around the buzz it will create.

    Reveal something predictable? Who cares. Reveal something unpredictable? Eh, ok. Reveal something unpredictable and genuinely interesting? Well, alright, but even this best option still feels like it's in a creative rut.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by saberopus View Post
    Reveal something unpredictable and genuinely interesting? Well, alright, but even this best option still feels like it's in a creative rut.
    I can tell you a plot change that would be unpredictable and genuinely interesting. DJJ

  17. #57
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    D:

  18. #58
    Last night I made the mistake of bringing up Star Wars as I was going to bed. My wife and I then spent the next hour talking about how things could have been better in TFA.

    To me, Jon'C is spot on with a lot of the films shortcomings. I remember walking out the theater after seeing it the first time and feeling alright with the film, but generally empty. It was a cotton candy film. Using the film as a basis for what I would change, well, I would have had the focus on Rey be her personality rather than how kickbutt she is. The scene when she exits the superstar destroyer and slides down the hill on scrap metal was something I really liked because it felt like she was well versed in her environment. This was just another day of scavenging and sliding down sand dunes cuts down on time. It was the moment I decided I was liking the film, and when she eats her bread and puts on the rebel alliance helmet I continued to like her as a character because it added a level of innocence and imagination to her. However once she runs into Finn it become all about how independent she is and the little hints to something greater vanish instantly.
    The rest of the film features how capable she is, but scared and reluctant to act. I feel that the film industry thinks a kickbutt character is all you need for your character to be appealing. Personality, and even charm seem to be lost to these script writers who just want a hero to come in and solve the plot through their level of awesomeness. I can rationalize how Rey was so gifted: She grew up in a diverse and hostile environment where she needed to learn every possible thing to survive and get the upper hand, but unlike driven people who spent their energy and time learning, she is somehow devoid of having interests.
    In contrast Luke wants to join the academy, he wants to distance himself from moisture farming and become a pilot. Rey, though a competent pilot has no aspiration to do anything but exist until somehow comes back for her.

    The heaviest changes I would make are concerning Han and Leah. Han had a full character arch in the OT, yet he's back to how he was exactly in Episode 4. I remember reading a rumor that he was the general of an OT Star Destroyer in this film. I loved the idea that he would command this ship under the New Republic banner, but run the ship using rogue strategies to be unpredictable in combat. He could keep the Millenium Falcon in the Hanger, and get into the fray when things got desperate. If they had to kill Han, I would have honestly rather seen him sacrificing himself in the Falcon while buying time for his friends. Killing him off and passing the Falcon to Rey feels like prying the wedding band off a corpse and giving it to the closest stranger. Plus splitting Hand and Leah up left their previous chemistry completely counter-cathartic from the OT, making all of that development for nothing.

    Starkiller base is stupid and unneeded, though if it had to be there it would be have been cool if the New Republic showed up to try capture the base to get an upper hand on the galaxy, forcing Leah to wage a war against the New Republic and the First Order to prevent galactic governments from having such a powerful weapon.

    I could honestly go on forever, but here is my novel as it is.

  19. #59
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    I enjoyed TFA very much. I expect I will enjoy this, as well.

    The final trailer is excellent.
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  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Antony View Post
    I enjoyed TFA very much.
    Likewise.

    Still wasn't as great as Knights of the Old Republic, though.

    .V.

  21. #61
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    I'm most excited for some of the placemaking stuff. The sense of scale, and visual layers, colors, detail, etc. I think I will find it quite enjoyable, visually at least, and that's certainly been carrying me through the Star Trek movies thus far, sooo.

  22. #62
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    Some words on Rey's characterization, since it's been a point of discussion here:

    I think one of the more pivotal aspects of her character is that she's a natural mechanic, much like Anakin was. It's a giveaway that she has (like Anakin had been when we first met him) been unwittingly using the force for a very long time. She's got a lot of natural compassion to her, much like Anakin, and also much like Anakin, is ruled by fear.

    Now, as much as I hate to do this (because I think hypothesizing about where stories will go can be pretty dumb), I'm going to go into how this will likely relate to the story as it plays out in the next two films.

    Odds are pretty good that Rey only has one parent, just like Anakin did, and that this - and other similarities to Anakin are the reasons she was sent away. Dollars to donuts says she is a virgin birth, and the concept of training her terrified Luke, and that his refusal to train her eventually triggered his nephew's obsession with Vader, and carrying on what he had done. The basic idea is that there is always a chosen one, and that the Jedi hadn't previously trained them because their view of the force prevented them from seeing them as viable candidates for training, but that given how evil will absolutely always exist, that the force naturally attempts to balance itself.

    Look at it from Ren's perspective. His master finds a student that he believes to be essentially a reincarnation of the most powerful Jedi to ever live, and is afraid to train her because if he screws it up, he screws the galaxy over again. It's pretty easy to see how that could lead to a young and impressionable kid thinking that it's the will of the force, one way or another. Add to the mix someone whispering in his ear that everything his grandfather had done was the will of the force, and you've got a recipe for disaster. Naturally, it's not too hard to see how Ren could end up thinking that Luke sent her away simply because he's afraid of her power, which combined with some potentially frustrated mentoring from Luke, could pretty easily give Ren the impression that Luke just doesn't want anyone to be more powerful than he is, and that the new Jedi Order is bull**** and so is his uncle.

    So you've got one kid who feels unappreciated and frustrated as hell with the world he lives in, and you've got another kid seemingly on a natural collision course with him, no matter how hard everyone tries to keep her away from him. It would also explain fairly well why everyone seems to be particularly intrigued with "the girl," e.g. Ren's absurd overreactions to her being mentioned, Snoke becoming agitated when Ren tells him that she overpowered him somehow, Maz Kanata presumptuously asking Han "who's the girl," Leia's affection toward her, Han's affection and downright paternal behavior toward her, Luke's reaction to seeing her, etc...

    Everyone already seems to know who she is, and if they don't know, they've got a hunch. The good guys treat her with a degree of reverence and affection, with the exception of Luke, who seems fairly well put off by her presence, and the bad guys treat her with spite and outright fear.

    She isn't Luke's kid or Ren's twin or anything else. She's just the same thing Anakin was, and that's what scares everyone.
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