My parents were unable to have their own children (I'm adopted). So I guess that means their marriage should be void.



There was a time when interracial marriages were illegal. Not sure when it was changed...

Many of you are arguing that about homosexuality being unnatural. Perhaps it is. But does it matter? Most of the drugs today that save people's lives are unnatural. Most of the methods we use to make things are unnatural. Plastics for example, are manmade. Try and find some 'natural' plastic and see how long it takes you. The point is, naturalness (is that the right word? Naturality?) doesn't matter anymore.

I am for gay marraiges. Many of you can probably guess why, but that doesn't matter. You can't just pick and choose who you give rights to. It's against the law to discriminate, or so I thought, so why are gay marriages exempt?

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All the prism in the world couldn't make hue.

[This message has been edited by Vincent Valentine (edited February 15, 2004).]

If I said how I truly feel about gay marriages and homosexuality...I wouldn't look pretty. But I won't divulge into that. That feeling is too strong.

What does concern me is that that Willie Brown openly defied law. California voters passed Proposition 22. That made it law. Now a public official said a proverbial "screw you, I'm doing this" to all the voters of that law. I highly doubt that Willie Brown will face some sort of charge or consequence of his action. In fact, he's all ready being heralded.

I suppose we can't be the Republic of California.

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<scribbly handwriting barely resembling name>

There is a huge difference. Lets say that there is a few couples that can't have children out of the entire bunch. That is different then an entire nation not having children.

Get a wife and have kids, when you feel the need to be gay buy yourself a large mirror and some water balloons.

Gay couples adopting kids. "Hey dad!" "I'm not dad, I'm mom, remember we already went over this" It IS impossible to lead a totally normal life with gay parents. There is no way it can be normal. The kids at school, the teasing, just everything.

Show me two men that can make a baby, and show me two women that can make a baby, without artificial anything or help from anyone else, then I will say that gay marriage is perfectly normal.

Next thing you know people will be fighting for opposite-sex marriage.

"I want to marry my hamster, and my friend here want to marry his pet rock! WE WANT EQUALITY! This is our life style, accept it!"


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Home is behind, the world ahead, and there are many paths to tread. Through shadow, to the edge of night, until the stars are all alight. Mist and shadow, cloud and shade, all shall fade, all shall fade.

A...large mirror and some balloons? I've missed something here, and glad I have.

A lot of people here have protested gay couples adopting on the grounds that the adopted children will be harassed by other people. As I previously said before, I don't support gay marriage, but I also don't think the fact that some people are intolerant of children of gay couples should be grounds against gay couplings -- it's not the fault of the gay people or their adopted child/children. It's the fault of the people who think that it's okay to harass other people solely on a difference in beliefs.

I see no reason why gay couples shouldn't be allowed to adopt. If they can prove to be good parents, why not? It's better for the kid than to be raised in foster homes.

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"LC Tusken: the idiot is the person who follows the idiot and your not following me your insulting me your following the path of a idiot so that makes you the idiot"
NMGOH || Jack Chick preaches it || The Link of the Dead

This is just so idiotic that, were you in close proximity to me, I would kick you in the face.

Grow up, Rod-Nog, and hopefully leave your bigotry behind.


[This message has been edited by Floss (edited February 15, 2004).]

From the guy who started the thread:

I've been skimming over all these, and I just wanted to say, like I probably should have said before, that this subject is pretty much intertwined with some form of being biased or prejudice, whether we want it or not. Some people dislike this practice/form of relationship, and they have their reasons. THey believe it's morally wrong, while others think it's ok because it doens't affect them, or perhaps because it does affect them, or maybe they think people have the right to do what they want. I spent 3 hours last night debating this after I posted this thread and couldn't sleep because I saw no real solution to the problem. Face it guys, theres no way this thread can't touch an issue like this without having controversy, IMO, it's impossible. I don't know a thread about this issue that hasn't been declared "full of messed up opinions" or declared to have people who are whining or something. Maybe we shouldn't point the finger here, because this topic is simply bound to be full of mixed opinion. I simply started this thread it to know everyone's feelings about the fact that it looks like legal marriages are actually about to take place, what do you guys feel about that? It's something that's been discussed and debated for years and now it's finally happening.

Now to my opinion...
I believe this is wrong on soooo many levels. I visited San Fransisco once and now I'm sorry when I start to think "I want to visit there again" because I thought it was such a cool place. Now I'm not so sure I want to head up there in then near future.
What sucks even more is the fact that this is all happening in MY state, apparantly, before any of the other 49. /cry

I tell ya those two 10-year old kids with the "give us money to head to san fransisco" sign freaked me out last night, I passed it off as two kids trying to make a buck or something, but other people were like "oh my gosh did you see those two kids?" and I realized they actually could have been...less than heterosexual...which didn't help my indegestion.

Anyway...my 2 cents

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I'm going to go out and do stuff, like besides work. Call up ben, hang out. Maybe see the last samurai, go skydiving, whatever.
Get back into the gym...
I want to do stuff that prevents me from playin video games so I can only play them a few hours a day, basically.
(Formally Veger, who died when he lost his e-mail adress, and his password. Veeger still looks for his old pass...)

[This message has been edited by Veeger (edited February 15, 2004).]

...what the hell was the point of that ridiculous comment?

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Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian 1 & 2 | Gonkmeg
Corrupting the kiddies since '97

^^^ Will you marry me?

He wanted to make sure that no one take him for full

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Of war, we don't speak anymore

Yes!...wait....er...how about a three-way marriage? Nikki would understand.

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Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian 1 & 2 | Gonkmeg
Corrupting the kiddies since '97

Don't for get the lovely Yossarian! I want in on that!

Make it 5... wait... 4 guys and 1 woman... that's not cool.

I have never laughed so hard in my life

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Checksum: I thought about it, I guess I'm striving for my own personal ideals. I'll just project those ideals onto Jesus and say "I'm trying to be like Jesus" so that I won't have to listen to you banter endlessly about me worshipping a false god or some such.

The Last True Evil: Ironically, that's very Christian of you.

Don't forget everyone's favorite tranny-boy!

I'm sorry, but I draw the line at the fro. The rest of you will need to form you're own...er...fellowship.

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Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian 1 & 2 | Gonkmeg
Corrupting the kiddies since '97

Fine, no tranny action for you, aussie!

Of course it's impossible for everyone to get what they want. It's always impossible to find a happy medium when there are so many different viewpoints. However, there is a choice that will show the most equality, and won't be descriminatory to anyone.



Just because something you're against happened there you don't want to go there?



I highly doubt that would ever happen, but I'm glad you believe in stereotypes. [/sarcasm]



That's assuming that the purpose of marriage is to have kids. However, that clearly isn't the purpose these days. Unmarried people have kids all the time, and some married couples never have or desire children. I guess their relationships are wrong too.

As for having a completely natural birth, that's impossible. My sister currently has an infection that can pass to her baby during birth. If she doesn't get an 'unnatural' drug before she goes into labor, the baby will be born with mental, seeing, and hearing defects. But at least it will be natural.

Natural is a joke.

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All the prism in the world couldn't make hue.

Way to stereotype the entire city. If you have a problem with the whole gay lifestyle thing, just don't go to the Castro. The whole city is not filled with gay people walking down the street, flaming their homosexuality for all the world to see.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

"The Americans love me! Why, they even have a street named after me!"

*aide whispers in his ear*

"It's filled with what?"

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"LC Tusken: the idiot is the person who follows the idiot and your not following me your insulting me your following the path of a idiot so that makes you the idiot"
NMGOH || Jack Chick preaches it || The Link of the Dead

Just how much education do most of you have, anyway? This subject was well covered in a Philosophy class I took (in case you wonder about the name of class, it was called "moral problems")

I shall cite some of thw work of John Corvino, from his book "Same Sex: Debating the Ethics, Science, and Culture of
Homosexuality" (1997). While I already knew much of the things stated beforehand, he manages to defeat virtually any arguement against homosexuality, so I'm partially borrowing it.

For the sake of this arguement, I'm going to assume some things, such as that marriage is a good thing, and that all sex should take place inside the bonds of marriage.

Arguements against Homosexuality

It is "unnatural", therefore wrong

Obviously, there are many meanings, and each must be examined seperately:

It is unusuall/uncommon, thus unnatural, and wrong.
This notion is laughable. There are tons of things that are uncommon... Including becoming a pastor, or knowing many languages (more than two). If they are uncommon, are they then wrong?

Homosexuality isn't practiced by other animals, and is therefore unnatural, and wrong.
Either way you look at this, this doesn't work. First, non-human animals don't do many of the things that humans do, such as cooking food to make it sanitary, or even marry. Second, as has been stated before, there is substantial evidence that there are other animals that partake in homosexuality, thus making the actual claim factually wrong, not just morally irrelevant.

What doesn't come from innate desires is unnatural, and therefore wrong.
For this part, I'll ignore the evidence stating that many homosexual people are "born that way". Instead, I will note things from the opposite way; that innate desires are something to judge whether something is morally right. Many people have an innate desire to kill someone; such is the serial killer, or even many people who have unfairly become the victim of a crime. If innate desires are what to judge rightness by, then shouldn't we make murder legal? After all, when somebody actually "murders" someone (as opposed to accidentially killing them), the murder usually stems from a deep desire to want to kill the victim, be it justified or not.

Sex between two people of the same gender isn't what the purpose of those organs is, therefore it's unnatural, and thus wrong.
The person who says this usually mean that it can't result in procreation. However, this kinda falls through when you realize that virtually all organs can be used for many, many purposes. The best example is the mouth. The most obvious uses for it are eating and breathing, but those are the only two that actually are used for the continuation of the human race. Is it thus wrong to use it for talking, singing, playing an instrument, or inflating a baloon? The thought makes me laugh: somebody stranded on an island with an inflatable raft, who won't inflate it because it's not directly related to continuing the human race.
The same seems to hold true for genitals. People don't have sex solely to make more people; they also have sex for pleasure, expressing love, and celebrating and strengthening a relationship (such as marriage). Thus, if you wish to argue that homosexuality is wrong because it doesn't yield children, make sure you condemn the use of contraceptives, or sterile couples having sex regardless of whether they know of their sterility or not.

Homosexuality is disgusting, which means that it must be unnatural and wrong.
I assume that it disgusting to homosexual people, or else they probably wouldn't do it. But even ignoring that, something being disgusting doesn't mean it's wrong. First of all, different people have different opinions; what one finds disgusting, another doesn't. Second, there are many things that are disgusting, that obviously aren't morally wrong. Cleaning toilets, disposing of garbage, and performing autopsies are disgusting to virtually everyone, yet they aren't morally wrong.


Let's look at the statement again:
It is "unnatural", therefore wrong
It seems that the arguements that fit this category are either morally irrelevant, or simply based on false evidence. Claims like this seem to be more personal opinion than moral judgement. Obviously, we should base our lives more on moral judgements than on other's personal opinions.

I'll post responses to other arguments later...

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Nes digs around in the trash can.
Nes finds a hamburger!
Nes puts the hamburger in his backpack.

Is there any way we could get indentation on these boards? My previous post would be much more readable if it could have some formatting... It defeats roughly 70% of anti-homosexuality arguments.

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Nes digs around in the trash can.
Nes finds a hamburger!
Nes puts the hamburger in his backpack.

[This message has been edited by nottheking (edited February 15, 2004).]

I found it to be readable.

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"LC Tusken: the idiot is the person who follows the idiot and your not following me your insulting me your following the path of a idiot so that makes you the idiot"
NMGOH || Jack Chick preaches it || The Link of the Dead

[Cow Poop]. I'm 100% straight. always have been, always will be.

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Most people regard me as the dark and immoral side of Massassi. At least I'm getting what I want out of life.

[This message has been edited by Pagewizard_YKS (edited February 15, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Vincent Valentine (edited February 15, 2004).]

I'm a horrible misogynist, possibly even surpassing Pagewizard in this area, yet I also don't see any sexual appeal in another guy. I enjoy hanging out with them more, and they're a ton more interesting to talk to than the average woman, but that doesn't make me homosexual.

Also, I'm well traveled enough to know:

1.) All of the arguments for and against homosexuality as a whole,
2.) That the apathetic and the non-discriminatory people are absolutely correct,
3.) That homophobes really, really irritate me. I'm guessing a lot of the homophobes on Massassi are high school students who stand around back smoking pot and talking about how "gay" everything is. Man I hate people.

I don't see why or how people can ever possibly justify a stance like this. Economically speaking, allowing gay marriage benefits would be unsound. But by that right, so are straight marriage benefits, and unless you're 10 yards under the poverty line the benefits aren't anywhere near enough to encourage you to have children.

Again, it's discrimination from discriminatory people. Plain and simple. Dress it up however you like, you're still a jerk.

Wait, I get bashed on my opinions and jokes, then you start your own thing..and it's perfectly mature? Yes, that makes perfect sense. Just because you don't agree with my opinion doesn't mean you are right or I am wrong.

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Home is behind, the world ahead, and there are many paths to tread. Through shadow, to the edge of night, until the stars are all alight. Mist and shadow, cloud and shade, all shall fade, all shall fade.

Rod-Nog: Opinions can be wrong. If, for instance, your opinion was founded on the premise that... oh... the Aryan race is genetically pure and descended from the white god-beings of Atlantis, your opinion would be wrong.

I'm not sure what you found your opinion on, but I bet I'm close enough to the mark.

The point of that was to show how rediculous people are. One person sues a company then suddenly everyone in the world is sue happy. One person wants his "equal rights" then the rest of the world has something to complain about.



I was pointing out (In a very odd way, yes) that being homosexual isn't normal..I know I am going to say this all wrong, but it isn't. Like I said people are here to reproduce. So being hetrosexual is normal.

All the gay people want to be accepted? Having a ring on your finger isn't going to make people accept you more then if you don't have a ring on.

That's MY opinion, if you don't like it then you have that right, but you shouldn't be telling me "YOUR OPINION IS WRONG AND STUPID!"

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Home is behind, the world ahead, and there are many paths to tread. Through shadow, to the edge of night, until the stars are all alight. Mist and shadow, cloud and shade, all shall fade, all shall fade.

[This message has been edited by Rod-Nog (edited February 15, 2004).]

Amen to nottheking.



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All the prism in the world couldn't make hue.

If that was really your point: Mission accomplished.
Slippery slope fallacy. It's an old one and a good one, but - congrats! It means your knee-jerk alarmist argument is utterly incorrect. Fallacious, as it were.



By this logic, anything except actual intercourse is deviant and wrong. But naturally, of course, it isn't. It's also legal (unless you're in Singapore, but that's a different discussion for a different time).



They aren't being accepted because of people like you in the first place. So it seems like gay marriage isn't the real issue here.



Except your opinion is wrong. Once again, it's based entirely upon dubious reasoning and fallacious logic. That makes it wrong. Utterly and completely wrong. Any person in the world, even if they're a staunch anti-homosexual or extremely religious, could see how wrong your argument is after one effective debating class. One. Even if they agreed with you about gay marriage, they'd still call you wrong because anything else is a filthy lie.

I'm not sure how much more strongly I can emphasize how utterly and completely incorrect your opinion is without resorting to liberal use of the bold and italic tags.

No, they want to get married for love - like everyone else. Do you think denying them right is about to stop them being homosexual and encourage them to go and find someone of the opposite sex to breed with? I don't think so......so why deny them that simple right to be married to the consenting adult they love?

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Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian 1 & 2 | Gonkmeg
Corrupting the kiddies since '97

Did you read my other post?

So I presume that you condemn contraceptives (many people do), and you condemn sex in couples where one or both are sterile, and you condemn priests, as they have taken vows of celebacy? If reproduction is the main purpose of the human race, then we as well kill those who no longer have the potential/decided not to have children, as they are taking resources (such as food) from those who CAN reproduce.

I'm just asking... If you find yourself answering "No" to any of those questions, then you seem to have double standards, and no real reason against homosexuality.

I will state this again: please make sure you read that other post of mine.

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Nes digs around in the trash can.
Nes finds a hamburger!
Nes puts the hamburger in his backpack.

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Home is behind, the world ahead, and there are many paths to tread. Through shadow, to the edge of night, until the stars are all alight. Mist and shadow, cloud and shade, all shall fade, all shall fade.

You know who else had opinions? HITLER.

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GhostOfYoda - General doer of stuff.

Yes, that would be a correct definition of the word "Opinion". However, if there is substantial evidence either for or against it, it ceases to be opinion, and becomes either a true fact or a false fact.

In your case, I stated the evidence against your opinion... Thus, unless you provide more, you opinion is a flawed opinion...

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Nes digs around in the trash can.
Nes finds a hamburger!
Nes puts the hamburger in his backpack.

Jin, I gotta disagree with you here. There's absolutley nothing "wrong" with homosexual marriage or attraction. Granted, for the continued survival of the species a certain level of heterosexuals must be maintained, but just because some people (a relatively small chunk of the population) lead a homosexual lifestyle doesn't mean it's wrong. It's just different. White people are a minority on the global scale. Does that mean it's wrong to be white? I'll bet not many people would say that (in SERIOUSNESS, I mean, we all say we hate whitey, but that's just joking).

As for homosexuality being wrong on religious grounds, go back to the Third Reich, Hitler. There's a reason that the United States government is secular: so that people with strong religious beliefs can't (in theory) impose their will upon others when it has no direct bearing on the way they lead their lives. As it has been stated before, if your church is so dogmatic and close-minded that it can't allow gays to marry within its walls, then sadly that is its choice. I don't think it would be a church worth going to in that case, a church that preaches hate instead of love. The entire arguement is so hypocritical it makes me want to throw up. Get a life, and don't interfere with gays who have them.

I used to be a big ol' homophobe.

I had a nice long talk with my gay uncle and his gay partner, and hey - they're just normal people.

Ten times out of ten, they're just guys who like guys. As long as they stay out of my face about it and just treat it more normally, I don't give a good Goddamn.

Let them marry.

That's my biggest issue. They want equallity then they flaunt about.. "I AM GAY, AND PROUD OF IT!" Well, I don't run around saying "I AM STRAIGHT, AND PROUD OF IT!"

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Home is behind, the world ahead, and there are many paths to tread. Through shadow, to the edge of night, until the stars are all alight. Mist and shadow, cloud and shade, all shall fade, all shall fade.

oddly enough, this is my exact situation. I learned tollerance because of how happy I saw my uncle and Fred.

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-=I'm the wang of this here site, and it's HUGE! So just imagine how big I am.=-
1337Yectiwan
OSC Returns!!
10 of 14 -- 27 Lives On

You realize that the whole point of gay pride is to desensitize people to the idea of homosexuality, right? They aren't doing it just to be attention whores. At least not the politically-minded people behind the rallies and parades.

The thing is, if you march around shouting "I'm straight and proud!" you aren't going to have some crazy jackalopes who are too childish and immature to formulate their own opinions running up and beating their heads in with rocks. Because being straight is right and being gay is wrong, and apparently you're only allowed freedom of speech or religion if you agree with the majority dictatorship.

The path is gray.

[This message has been edited by Jon`C (edited February 15, 2004).]

But what you dont realize is thats exactly what you are doing right now.

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And everything under the sun is in tune, but the sun is eclipsed by the moon...

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