Ok, so impossible might not be the appropriate word. But I still think it will be damned hard to get a Constitutional amendment passed. The Framers designed it so that it would be hard to amend the Constitution.

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<scribbly handwriting barely resembling name>

Gay marriages should be allowed for the sake of legal benefits that marriage provides. I would understand the Christian point of view better if there were an alternative way to officialize a relationship with the exact same terms as with marriage.

Gay couples don't even (usually) get married in church, "the house of God", so there should be no problem whatsoever. Did Christianity come up with the concept behind marriage, and do you have proof to support that?

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Or then not. --FastGamerr/Nikumubeki

The only thing that bothers me about what is happening in San Francisco is that the man is deliberately and openly violating the law- which is supposed to be a reflection of the will of the people he is governing.

He has deliberately set himself at odds with those whose will he is compelled by his office to enforce. It is not his place to say "I won't do this" or "I will."

The President says he supports the Amendment. What place does he have in the Amendment process? None, as far as I'm aware. It's his right to have an opinion, and it's the right of San Francisco's mayor to have it too, but it is his duty to enforce the law of the land under his jurisdiction.

We may be compelled to disobey laws which we find unjust, but there is a process to change the law here. We follow the principle that the law is what society says it is, and instead of allowing the people to convey their will, the man has taken it upon himself, and that is a big step in the wrong direction.

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Steal my dreams and sell them back to me.....

[This message has been edited by Bounty Hunter 4 hire (edited February 24, 2004).]

I wasnt trying to say that the majority of people dont oppose gay marriages, I was just saying its not the presidents job to make that decision.



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And everything under the sun is in tune, but the sun is eclipsed by the moon...

DSettahr's Homepage

Impossible. The Constitution can't be challenged in court.

Then your constitution is a load of bull**** and needs to be re-written.

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When bread becomes toast, it can never go back to being bread again.

Without being too hostile, the Constitution has worked for 200 years, and still does. The government can't force us to accept it's religious values, and neither can our elected officials if they hope to keep their jobs.

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Steal my dreams and sell them back to me.....

Just because it works, doesn't mean it couldn't work better. America is supposed to be a 'free' country, and yet people are allowed to vote eachother's rights away.

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When bread becomes toast, it can never go back to being bread again.

[This message has been edited by Flexor (edited February 24, 2004).]

Why is it immidiately assumed that just because someone is against gay marriages, it's for religious reasons? Same sex marriages are immoral and unethical. Two people of the same sex can not possible produce offspring (without involving outside help). It defies the natural cycle of life! People whom have decided to "liken" a member of the same sex ARE breaking those natural insticts that ties are sense of morality and ethics into this thing we call life.

This is one of the rare issues I'll actually back Bush on.

NOTE: I am not saying that homosexuals are "bad" people. Many people take part in activities that break moral laws but are still genually good people.

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"At last, we have come to find the truth to our souls. Though, the truth is not what we expected. I now fear my own soul."

Since when has marriage anything to do with the ability to produce offspring? As it's been mentioned countless times before, if that were the case, then infertile couples wouldn't be allowed to get married.

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When bread becomes toast, it can never go back to being bread again.

Get with the 80's man.
Marriage is not about making babies (unless you're devout catholic).
I got married because I already had a baby. I got married in a provincial park by the river on a Friday evening at 7PM in July with 4 guests. It was beautiful and the only reason there was a religious person there was becase it was the cheapest way to have someone perform the service.
This is the 21st century. We need to accept people for who they are and what they want to be (unless they are criminals obviously).

and btw,

No. I don't think it does. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that 200,000 years ago if one cave man stole from, killed or raped some one in their group, it was either looked down upon or the purpetrator was probably killed.
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To artificial life, all reality is virtual.

[This message has been edited by Darth Evad (edited February 24, 2004).]

Marrige is between 1 man and 1 woman, regardless of if they can produce offspring, not 2 men, or 2 woman. It is just completely immoral, there is no love involved. Good for Bush, finnaly some action taken towards this.

It may not be his place to make laws, but it *is* the majority's place. That's called democracy. In order for an amendment to pass, the majority has to agree. Get over it.

If it passes, it's the will of the people, imposed on a minority. There's nothing wrong with the constitution; that's the way it's supposed to work.

For an example of the will of the people being forced on a select few, see graduated income tax.

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Ω of 14

If we amend the constitution, they will be criminals, and suddenly a ban on gay marraige will pass your rather flimsy ethical foundings.

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Ω of 14

How do you know? I'll also tell you with full confidence that you are 100% wrong.

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To artificial life, all reality is virtual.

It isn't entirely entrusted to the passions of the people, though. Much more than just a majority would have to support it, something it is unlikely could be done with something truly unjust. And beside that it is a lengthy process.

It has to pass through the House or Representatives, the Senate, and then be approved by 2/3 of the State Legislatures. It is the will of the people, and there are enough people to balance between the needs of society and the rights of the Individual. It hasn't been allowed thus far, and should it pass, obviously a great portion of the country want it to stay that way.

I doubt it will pass, but that doesn't mean they have no right to try.

There seems to be a notion in other countries that Americans think that anything goes so long as there was a vote on it...

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Steal my dreams and sell them back to me.....

I'll make an emendment to my statement then.

This is the 21st century. We need to accept people for who they are and what they want to be (unless they are criminals and not the targets of some peoples fears/religious beliefs/close mindedness/lack of understanding and/or political agenda).

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To artificial life, all reality is virtual.

Now your'e bounding into a field of relatives. With that amendment I could very well justify *anything*.

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Ω of 14

There is a difference between tolerance and acceptance, you see.

I, and everyone, should accept ones right to have a belief; and except in extreme circumstances, tolerate that belief.

I, however, should never be forced to accept a belief simply because the fact that I don't offends someone.

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Steal my dreams and sell them back to me.....

[This message has been edited by Bounty Hunter 4 hire (edited February 24, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Bounty Hunter 4 hire (edited February 24, 2004).]

How is it natural to love the same sex? Seriously, that is NOT the way humans were set up. Believe me, I can speak from knowing a gay person. My uncle is gay, I am not proud of that one bit. His reasons are obvious. As a child he was babied beyond belief by my grandmother. He ended up growing up pretty messed in the head, and caused some real issues within my family. Eventually, he decided to be gay. It was from a troubled child hood, and pretty much a horrible relationship with his family, that he turned to being gay, looking for comfort and love. Also, because he was shot down by a few woman years ago. His mindset after that was, if I cant get woman, why not go for men? Believe me, some of these people may be sick really figure out how to love the same sex, but in the case of my uncle, and many other gays, there is no love involved.



[This message has been edited by finity5 (edited February 24, 2004).]

It's the difference between tolerance and pluralism.

With tolerance, I accept that you're different from me and remain disagreeing with you, and I still believe that you are wrong. I accept your existance.

With pluralism, I say that my beliefs are no less wrong or right than yours, and therefore I cannot proclaim myself to be right, because you are also right. I accept that truth does not exist.

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Ω of 14

And that is the conflict between natural law thinkers and others that can't be compromised.

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Steal my dreams and sell them back to me.....

Hmmm... finity5.
I think you should research the topic further.
Go to visit with gay couples, male or female, and see how they live with each other.

As far as your uncle is concerned, I can't comment because I don't know him. But I do know gay guys that love each other.

And who said that humans were not 'set up' that way?
If you say god, then you are taking into a belief system that not everyone believes in so it is moot.
If you say evolution, then I suggest you do some more research again.

I'm also suprised how some people react to this topic.
Right this second there are gay people interacting with each other in all kinds of ways including getting married.
The sky is not falling, the economy is not failing, computers are not crashing, animals are not taking over the cities...
So why does anyone care if gay people are getting married? I don't get it I guess. :/

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To artificial life, all reality is virtual.

[This message has been edited by Darth Evad (edited February 24, 2004).]

Ok, either way, how are 2 people of the same sex supposed to reproduce? You know a way Evad? Because I sure as hell dont.

Reproduction is not the definition pf love or marriage. As a matter of fact, I try not to reproduce with the women I love or am married to.

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To artificial life, all reality is virtual.

Um.. I thought we were talking about an ammendment? Which can be challenged..

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MadQuack on Military school: Pro's: I get to shoot a gun. Con's: Everything else.
"I'm going to beat you until the laws of physics are violated!!" ! Maeve's Warcry

RIP -MaDaVentor-. You will be missed.

Is that your assumption, or did he tell you that? There are cases where that happens, but most gay people are born gay. There are also numerous counts of homosexual activity in the animal kingdom.

Also, where do morals and ethics come from? What is the basis for morality and ethics? Religion.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

Morality and religion are bound quite solidly. You can't just throw out all morals that are based on God's decree. Some people haven't given alot of thought to all that they believe, they just know what they believe to be "wrong" and "right". Perhaps these beliefs were influenced by the Church. And if they were? So? Christian morals work. Have you become so frightened of religion that you're willing to discard all of its legitimate teachings?

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Ω of 14

Amendments, once passed, are part of the constitution and cannot be changed except by another act of congress. It is essentially the only way to take away the power of the judicial branch in such a matter.

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Ω of 14

Born gay? Can you back this up? Can you back up the "numerous counts" in the animal kingdom either? Because personally, I'd never heard of either except as speculation.

And no, even people without religion tend to have morality.
Why? Because morality works. It leaves people happy. Rules of morality are often not ideas about how we can be better, they are often observations of how things *are*. These observations can be had by anyone.

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Ω of 14

So... you're saying that some people are born with that mindset, and are born to be attracted to men? Sorry, but that is complete bs. Tell me exactly then, why would one be born attracted to the same sex? Even without religion involved, nature works with 2 members of the opposite sex when it comes to reproduction. You are not BORN attracted to the same sex! I suppose you could become that way over time, but I still find it sickening, and do not see how love is involved.

If I believe that it is wrong to kill, steal and rape, that has nothing to with god or religion.
It's just wrong to do that.
I believe it's ok and good for some people to covet thy neighbours wife and belongings. I belive we should all be able to work on the sabath as well as go to the mall.
I also honour my mother and father and I know niether one of them belives in god. As a matter of fact my father curses the lord on a regular basis just in case he may be listening.

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To artificial life, all reality is virtual.

Yes.. but you (or someone) said it couldn't be changed. And it can.. Anyone remember the Prohibition?

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MadQuack on Military school: Pro's: I get to shoot a gun. Con's: Everything else.
"I'm going to beat you until the laws of physics are violated!!" ! Maeve's Warcry

RIP -MaDaVentor-. You will be missed.

I said that it couldn't be challenged in court, not that it can't be repealed by another amendment.

Yes, but courts like the Supreme court simply determine what is constitutional, not what the constitution can say.

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"LC Tusken: the idiot is the person who follows the idiot and your not following me your insulting me your following the path of a idiot so that makes you the idiot"
NMGOH || Jack Chick preaches it

I don't care if gay people want to "be together forever" and get the tax benefits. What I object to is using the term "marriage" to describe a union between two people of the same sex. The word "marriage" specifically means a union between 1 man and 1 woman. If you want a "civil union" - FINE. Don't call it a marriage, though, that's a pollution of the language.

We all know what's next after this: A union between 3 people. Or 4. And they'll try to call that a "marriage" too. I really don't care what people do, but the term "marriage" has a deep meaning that shouldn't be trampled upon.

[This message has been edited by Brian (edited February 24, 2004).]

finity5, nature works when people are born with all thier limbs and without downs syndrome and without debilitating genetic diseases and with a brain in thier skulls and...
If there are people born with 'genetic defects' for disease why is it so hard to belive that there is a 'genetic defect' for homosexuality?

As a matter of fact there are some very respected studies being done now with a possibel 'gay gene' having been located.

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To artificial life, all reality is virtual.

So you have morals, thats just great. I am not a religious person, and I have morals also. Being gay goes against my morals, apparently not yours though.

So true...

Right.. have you read any of the other 27 threads about this topic or are you bitter about not getting light-up sneakers in primary school and need to take out some angst about that.. honestly, considering the hundreds of replies such threads have gotten, and then comparing that to the number which say "omq liek no g3y marriagez0rz, tehy r to burn in hellz0rz", and then try to back up that it is of course obviously blatantly totally a religious thing..

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
"You'll have to face it, the endings are the same however you slice it. Don't be deluded by any other endings, they're all fake, with malicious intent to deceive, or just motivated by excessive optimism if not by downright sentimentality. The only authentic ending is the one provided here: John and Mary die. John and Mary die. John and Mary die." -Happy Endings [Margeret Atwood]
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