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ForumsDiscussion Forum → Why in Gods name are you voting for Bush?!
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Why in Gods name are you voting for Bush?!
2004-10-21, 7:26 PM #241
No see we really don't.
>>untie shoes
2004-10-21, 8:18 PM #242
Quote:
Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet
Even if you believe that, is that a good enough reason to Vote Kerry? We need to stop abortion NOW.


I wouldn't say we need to totally stop abortion now. I understand why someone might say we should, though. At a minimum we absolutely must stop the barbaric practice of murdering unborn children on the way out (AKA partial birth abortion). That is simply evil and worse, I think, than even the cloning for parts the pro-embryonic stem cell crowd wants.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2004-10-21, 8:54 PM #243
Whoa. I agree with Wookie06.

o.o
2004-10-21, 9:03 PM #244
Look forward to my up-comeing Abortion thread.
2004-10-21, 9:15 PM #245
Oh, I'm sure it'll be a riot*.

*Note devastatingly clever double entendre.
2004-10-21, 9:36 PM #246
Quote:
Originally posted by Joseph T
To me, it looks like someone's religous belief is getting in the way of their government position.


If one really follows Christ, one cannot let any position get in the way of his beliefs. I say that, not expecting everyone else to agree, but to state the truth.

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I don't mind government officials having their decisions influenced by their religion, I think that it is great that their faith helps guide them.


Well, you just said that they shouldn't let their beliefs interfere with their position. Where do you draw the line between guidance and interference?

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However, when one groups beliefs infringes on the beliefs of another group, thats when its gone too far.


I don't think that statement makes sense. My beliefs as a Christian "infringe" on plenty of other people's beliefs. Does that mean they have to do what I think is right? No, they have free will.

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Homosexuals or not, they are still Americans, which means that they are granted rights under the constitution.


As it is now, the states govern marriage within their boundaries. Either that situation will stand, or a federal law or amendment will be passed. As it is now, as far as I know, marriage is not a defined right in the USA; perhaps it should be.

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blujay I may be completely wrong about you, but you seem to come off as strongly supporting the amendment to ban gay marriage and that you just oppose gay rights in general. If this is the case, how can you back it up constituionally, when the document that governs our country says that we have seperation of church and state and freedom of religion? If I'm wrong about you, I apologize.


I understand the argument that passing a marriage amendment would violate the separation of church and state. However, as a Christian, I don't think I can oppose an amendment that would protect God's definition of marriage.

Remember that such an amendment would not prevent them from being together. We're not talking about outlawing homosexuality.

What "gay rights" do you refer to? The right to associate? To be together? To do whatever they want in the privacy of their own home, however morally wrong it may be? Or are you saying that homosexuals have a right to be married?

Even I would not be in favor of making a law prohibiting homosexuality. While I strongly believe that it's wrong, a law against it would not work; it would turn out nation into a police state, and that would not be right either. I believe that, for the most part, as far as laws in this country go, people should have free will, as long as their actions don't harm others. But that doesn't mean that homosexual "marriage" should be protected by law. Marriage is, by definition, between a man and a woman. Legal rights of married couples are things like tax brackets, inheritance, visitation rights, etc. A while back someone on these forums made the argument that, since they cannot have children together, they shouldn't receive marriage benefits. I am inclined to agree with that as a reason for not being allowed to "marry." However, they are free to write wills to bequeath whatever they want to whoever they want. For visitation rights, I think any person should be able to list any people he or she wants to have the right to visit them in a hospital. As for taxes, I really don't care that much; the IRS can take care of that. But I do believe that marriage should be defined as being between a man and a woman. Yes, I believe that because of my religious beliefs. No, I don't expect everyone to agree with me.

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One last note, I believe you said in several spots that homosexuality was morally wrong, and used Bible qoutes to back yourself up. While you make a very good point, I'm afraid that I disagree with you here as well. To be honest I don't remember exactly where in the Bible it says this, but I'm fairly sure that the Bible says that we are not to judge other people, and to leave the judging to him. This is why I try not to say that homosexuality is "wrong", I just try to say that I don't agree with it.


You said earlier that, "I personally believe that homosexuality isn't right and is a sin." Now you say that you won't say that it is wrong?

"Judge not, lest ye be judged."

That is written. However, those words do not mean that we should ignore sin, or condone it in the name of mercy. It is a Christian's duty to point out sin, so that the sinner can repent. But it is also a Christian's duty to encourage the sinner to repent, to forgive, and to welcome the sinner back when he repents. There is more to it than simple rebuking, and there is more to it than simple forgiveness.

When it comes to judging if another person deserves to spend eternity in Heaven, that is entirely up to the Lord. But if we suspend all judgment here on Earth, how will any of us avoid sin? How will any of us lead sinners to salvation through Christ? There must be a balance.

Do not be afraid to speak the truth about right and wrong. Do not be weak and conform to the ways of the world. Instead, set an example so that others may see Christ living in you, and be influenced to follow Him as well.

All this is my understanding of God's word, and what the Spirit has influenced me to say. I hope and pray that it is an accurate and true interpretation of God's word. But I don't claim to be perfect, or completely correct in all that I say. So I encourage you to study God's word for yourself, and do your best to understand it, and follow it in your life, and to encourage others to do the same.
KOP_blujay
Just dancin'...and singin'...in the Force.
2004-10-22, 11:31 PM #247
My mind isn't at it's sharpest right now, but I figured I'd better come back here now rather than wait. My arguments might not be up to my normal standard right now. Not that that should be an excuse, just a disclaimer.

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You claimed he removed all of the special forces in Afghanistan. That New Yorker article does not support your statement. Some SF were removed. Is adjustment of troop deployment not a normal part of military operations?

I meant most. I think it was too soon to withdraw them.

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The Guardian article you linked is an opinion piece; it is even labeled "Comment." Why are you citing it as fact?

I figured it would corroborate the others.

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I am beginning to tire of people who have no training in military operations or strategy criticizing people with decades of military experience. It is easy to look back and see mistakes that were made; would you have done better? Can you prove that someone else would have done better? Can you even make a convincing argument to that effect? In my opinion, you can't.

Maybe not, but the people who made the decision could have done better. There was no need at that point to divert those important people.

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You're really arguing that the war in Iraq shouldn't have happened. Unless you argue that point, you cannot complain about troop redeployments, which are a necessary part of military operations. Unless you suggest that we should have had zero SF in Iraq, and 100% of the deployed SF in Afghanistan.

All right then. We shouldn't have had the war in Iraq. And if we did, we should have been more patient about it.

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I don't, for certain. However, it was obvious that Bush was preparing for war with Iraq. Only a fool would think otherwise.

It's possible that your memory is faulty.

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You mean to say that one cannot know that something is very likely? That's an admission that...what? Huh?

Well, doing so means nothing. Saying "I know it will probably happen" means as much as saying "I'm not sure it will happen".

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That's the only link you posted that supports the argument. And it was an interesting read; thanks for posting it. I think the claim that there was "no plan" for the peace is somewhat of an exaggeration, but it may be true that there was not enough time and effort put into planning for postwar ops. As for why, I don't know. Perhaps it was thought that a delay would give Saddam more time to prepare for the invasion. That's speculation, of course, so who knows.

I won't argue against your speculation since you're being fair here.

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However, we know that Saddam had weapons scientists who were intentionally misleading the UN inspectors.

I don't understand why we couldn't have been just a little more forceful with the inspectors without going to war.

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Read your own arguments.

I think you misunderstood me.
Bush is blocking importation of prescription drugs from Canada.
Despite this, he is importing flu shots from there.

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And cite evidence that shows they aren't working as well as he promised. (I wouldn't bother, but since you are so fond of demanding citations....) If you are able to do that, you'll have to convince me that I should hold Bush guilty for not being able to perfecly predict the effects of a tax cut, and convince me that Kerry has not made similar mistakes in the past.

This site talks about the number of jobs, how they're falling short of expectations, and tax cuts.

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Thank you for conceding that point. As for yours, that is also a valid point. In response to that, I would point out Sine's excellent post, which details reasons for removing Saddam from power in Iraq at this time.

His post is interesting, but I can't say I agree with it. Certainly our methods have fallen short of his ideal. While taking out Saddam itself truly is good for the Iraqis, we've kind of left the country in ruins in the process.
Although the situation is different, the way Germany was so messed up after the first world war is what allowed Hitler to take power.
To be honest, I don't blame a lot of the insurgents for what they're doing.

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Well then, do you criticize the Bush administration for making the same mistake that Kerry made?

Believing that Saddam was a threat? No, I don't.

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I think that if you want to claim a specific reason that Kerry voted against it, and if you want to demand citations from others, that you should be willing to cite this example.

That's not the way it works though. He gave the reasoning right before he said the "I actually voted for it before voting against it". If person A quotes someone, it's up the him or her to make the cite. If person B says to look at the quote in context, it doesn't become his duty to cite the speech that should have been quoted in the first place.

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I know that it is immoral and wrong. I also know that there is no sin that God does not provide a way to avoid committing. We don't always take advantage of that way to avoid committing it, though.

I'll take that as a no then. It is not immoral or wrong to be gay. It's not like gay people say "Hmm... I think I'll be gay."
You know far less about the situation than you think you do, and you can't expect them to be different if you haven't experienced what they're going through.

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No, that is not true. Shame does not equal bigotry.

Being ashamed of a gay person is bigotry.

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That argument doesn't really make any sense to me.

That was my point. What I was responding to didn't make much sense to me because it was making elaborate assumptions about what he was saying.

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While the post you refer to wasn't the most polite, I will warn you here: Your posts were worse. If you don't conduct yourself in a decent manner, you won't be allowed to participate. Your condescending attitude is not welcome.

They were two different posts by two different people. We really a need working "quote=" tag.
No matter what, dismissing other people's well thought out posts (including yours) as worthless is incredibly rude and something that's done way too much around here, and those kinds of posts really are worthless.
In the latter post, I was deflecting an ad-hominem that was trying to discredit me.
My posts are hardly condescending.

I may have gone a bit over the line, but I do not regret it at all. If you're going to start cracking down on me, fine, but Massassi really has widespread problems with people respecting each other, and it's not limited to the people in political threads. You would have to start spelling things out to everybody.

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Of course Jesus knew that to completely stop sinning is not possible for us. That is not the point. The point was to stop committing adultery, and to focus on living a holy life of self-sacrifice and service to the Lord. I encourage you to look up those quotes.

A lot of translations use "Go and sin no more". He also tells her he does not condemn her.
The teaching techniques that Jesus used fascinate me to no end.

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I do know that God works in many ways; some strange, some subtle. And I know that if one seeks His kingdom first, that He will provide. If you dedicate your life to the Lord, He will help you through whatever you are going through.

God does indeed work in many ways.
There are many gay chrisitians. True christians too, with a lot of faith and who truly rely on God.
Many of them say that God blesses their gay relationships or are at peace with God.
You could say that they are wrong, but you couldn't really do that fairly unless you talked to these people in person. I'm not going to claim that they're right or they're wrong.
All I know is that there is a whole lot more going on than it seems at first.

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You're a piece of work. Your "respectable" cites are more credible than an op-ed by the former commander of the region in question specifically addressing the issues raised? Amazing.

Yep, his claims contradict several independent reports from the time. I'm going with the independent reports.

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Look who's talking. Campaign ads on TV are not exactly what we like to call "proof".

I don't know where you're getting the campaign ads thing from. You must not have read my post. See what I said to Lonelydagger, it applies to you too.
Your sniping is pathetic.

Quote:
Acting on homosexual tendencies is a sin... hmmm.. can I get a *coughbull****coughcough* ?
And what, the solution is to be celibate? Yeah, that's a really good one there, buddy. We all know how well that works.

This seems like a good opportunity to quote the Morrissey song I Have Forgiven Jesus
I think at least you would appreciate it, Freelancer. It's very powerful.

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And yes a homosexual person can be celibate and abstain from homosexual sex. Just because you think thats "too hard" doesn't change the fact that it's entirely possible.

Nice to see you judging others. Pretty ironic from massassi's #1 drug advocate.

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In what situations has it failed?

The Catholic Church.

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Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

I've seen a pretty good explanation for this one. I don't remember it right now though.

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Not committing the physical act is a good step, but wanting to is also a sin.

No it's not. Jesus's point was that those who don't commit adultery aren't really better than anyone who does, because everybody "wants to".

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Not everyone who claims to follow Christ actually does. One must judge that not only by words, but by actions also.

Indeed, but not in cases where people swear. I think Bush is a good example of someone whose actions don't match his words.

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I don't think it's appropriate to assign different degrees of shame for different sins. While we certainly feel on this earth that a sin like murder is worse than a sin like swearing, sin is sin. All sin should be avoided and repented of; all sin can be forgiven through Christ.

Who says that swearing is a sin?
Sin cannot be avoided. All that sin means is falling short of perfection. We are human and are not perfect. Sin was the word the archers used for missing the bullseye. Just look at the first word in Sine Nomen's name for a better understanding of what sin is.

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I'm pro-life. Kerry is not -- not enough, anyways -- last I heard, he's being excommunicated from the Catholic Church for heresy.

You heard wrong.

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Well they are at least calling for it...

Some people are. It means nothing. Those who are trying to excommunicate him are much more heretical than Kerry.

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Psychotic. Regardless whether or not the "lies" were true or not? And phantom allegations of "less acceptable motivations"? Where do you get these crazy notions?

Psychotic?!?!?! You are scaring me.

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blujay, it's obvious that you are against homosexuals 110%. I'm with you on this, I personally believe that homosexuality isn't right and is a sin. I also happen to be a pretty big homophobe to be honest, they freak me out.

I think the rest of your post is excellent, but what you say hear really isn't Godly at all.

Quote:
Even if you believe that, is that a good enough reason to Vote Kerry? We need to stop abortion NOW.

Bush wouldn't be stopping it if he made it illegal. It would just mean that women would get dangerous non-professional abortions and you'd see more babies in dumpsters.

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I am inclined to agree with that as a reason for not being allowed to "marry."

That still makes no sense. Should couples where one person is infertile not be allowed to marry?
It's not the side effects of cocaine, so then I'm thinking that it must be love
2004-10-22, 11:58 PM #248
Quote:
When it comes to judging if another person deserves to spend eternity in Heaven, that is entirely up to the Lord. But if we suspend all judgment here on Earth, how will any of us avoid sin? How will any of us lead sinners to salvation through Christ? There must be a balance.


And how exactly does one "lead sinners to salvation through Christ?" By spouting nauseating rhetoric? You need to butt out of peoples' own affairs (especially on the homosexuality issue).

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Do not be afraid to speak the truth about right and wrong. Do not be weak and conform to the ways of the world. Instead, set an example so that others may see Christ living in you, and be influenced to follow Him as well.


Christ is living inside me? Quick, someone call a doctor! I may need surgery! Oh yeah, and all of the collective thinking of society is completely wrong, yet one solitary religious whacko is right. I'm sure.

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All this is my understanding of God's word, and what the Spirit has influenced me to say. I hope and pray that it is an accurate and true interpretation of God's word. But I don't claim to be perfect, or completely correct in all that I say. So I encourage you to study God's word for yourself, and do your best to understand it, and follow it in your life, and to encourage others to do the same.


The "Spirit" influenced me to kill Joe Shmoe down the street, so it must be right. Besides, I get a warm fuzzy feeling and that's how I know the Spirit is guiding me. Oh wait.. that's the same feeling I get when I'm just.. happy.
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2004-10-23, 12:48 AM #249
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The "Spirit" influenced me to kill Joe Shmoe down the street, so it must be right. Besides, I get a warm fuzzy feeling and that's how I know the Spirit is guiding me. Oh wait.. that's the same feeling I get when I'm just.. happy.

He doesn't claim that what he's saying is representative of God, so I think you should give him a break there.
It's not the side effects of cocaine, so then I'm thinking that it must be love
2004-10-23, 2:11 AM #250
Quote:
Originally posted by Freelancer
And how exactly does one "lead sinners to salvation through Christ?" By spouting nauseating rhetoric? You need to butt out of peoples' own affairs (especially on the homosexuality issue).


I'm quoting the Bible, the word of God. I'm truly sorry if that nauseates you--and I'm not being sarcastic. I'm not butting into other people's affairs; I'm simply stating my opinions. I think yellow cars are generally bad-looking and should be repainted. Is saying that here butting into other people's affairs? Am I not allowed to say that here? I'm not trying to force other people to agree with me.

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Christ is living inside me? Quick, someone call a doctor! I may need surgery! Oh yeah, and all of the collective thinking of society is completely wrong, yet one solitary religious whacko is right. I'm sure.


*sigh* The last part of that made me laugh, but the first part didn't. I don't think the Lord is in you right now, because you sound like you're rejecting Him.

Romans 12:2
Quote:
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is–his good, pleasing and perfect will.


The collective thinking of society can certainly be wrong sometimes. And I'm not "one solitary religious whacko," as you so eloquently put it. ;)

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The "Spirit" influenced me to kill Joe Shmoe down the street, so it must be right. Besides, I get a warm fuzzy feeling and that's how I know the Spirit is guiding me. Oh wait.. that's the same feeling I get when I'm just.. happy.


I'm not saying I'm 100% right about everything. But I try to follow the example Jesus set, and I've been trying to explain His way. You probably don't care, but the Bible says that to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin. One interpretation of that is that it is a sin that simply will not be forgiven. But another interpretation is that one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit is set against the Lord in his heart, and so cannot come to forgiveness and salvation.

I can't quite tell: are you an atheist, or what? Do you believe in God? Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God? What do you believe? Going on the comments you've made, I'm guessing you aren't very religious. If you would like to study the Bible sometime, I'll be glad to help in any way that I can.

frog, I might reply to your post tomorrow; I'm going to bed now. Hasta la queso.
KOP_blujay
Just dancin'...and singin'...in the Force.
2004-10-23, 9:24 AM #251
Could you do me a favor, and site specific passages in the bible condemning homosexuality? I looked, and I could only find one:

Quote:
1 Corinthians 6

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders


It really doesn't seem that the bible makes out homosexuality to be as big of a deal as you do. I mean, there's not even a commandment about it..
2004-10-23, 9:28 AM #252
Yeah it only says men who lie with men will not inherit God's kingdom. :rolleyes:
2004-10-23, 9:32 AM #253
lol I was gonna say that too Blood Wolf. Preacher here didnt even quote the right line :rolleyes:
In Tribute to Adam Sliger. Rest in Peace

10/7/85 - 12/9/03
2004-10-23, 9:50 AM #254
Quote:
Originally posted by Freelancer
yet one solitary religious whacko is right. I'm sure.


Ahahahahahhaahhahahahaa

/me breathes

Ahahahahahahahahaha

Stupidest. Comment. Ever.
2004-10-23, 9:52 AM #255
Err, I wasn't trying to make a point, I was just asking for more passages than just that, as that's the only one I found..
2004-10-23, 10:13 AM #256
Quote:
Originally posted by Mikus
Ahahahahahhaahhahahahaa

/me breathes

Ahahahahahahahahaha

Stupidest. Comment. Ever.


Care to explain?
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2004-10-23, 10:19 AM #257
Well those beliefs aren't followed by one solitary whacko, it's actually more like 2 billion Christians world wide so... yarr.
2004-10-23, 11:00 AM #258
Goodness Mikus. Just when we manage to send this thread to the boneyard, you resurrect it.
"I'm interested in the fact that the less secure a person is, the more likely it is for that person to have extreme prejudices." -Clint Eastwood
2004-10-23, 1:47 PM #259
blujay's beliefs are extremely fundamental. Christian fundamentalists compose maybe 20% of that 2 billion, on a good day.

My god, if the majority of the people in the US thought the way blujay did, I'd kill myself.
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2004-10-23, 1:51 PM #260
Quote:
Originally posted by Freelancer
blujay's beliefs are extremely fundamental. Christian fundamentalists compose maybe 20% of that 2 billion, on a good day.

My god, if the majority of the people in the US thought the way blujay did, I'd kill myself.

Ever heard of a little place called "the bible belt"?
2004-10-23, 1:52 PM #261
Jude 1
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Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings.
But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals--these are the very things that destroy them.


II Peter 2
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But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)-- if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority.


I Corinthians 6:9-10
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Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.


12-20
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"Everything is permissible for me"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"--but I will not be mastered by anything. "Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"--but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.


Romans 1:25-27
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They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.


Those are just the New Testament references.
KOP_blujay
Just dancin'...and singin'...in the Force.
2004-10-23, 1:55 PM #262
Quote:
Originally posted by Freelancer

My god, if the majority of the people in the US thought the way blujay did, I'd kill myself.


....is that statement supposed to carry some sort of negative weight with it?
2004-10-23, 2:27 PM #263
It's up to you.
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
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