Instead of simply taking someone else's word for it, why don't you do a little research before you insult an entire religion?

It's not permanent

I like this paragraph from http://www.tbm.org/willsuicide.htm



But, this paragraph seems to fit this thread pretty good, but I don't like it: (http://www.livingwaters.com/witnessingtool/doessomeonegotohellforsuicide.shtml)



Like I mentioned before, my grandmother smoked for many years. She stopped and she certainly isn't suffering from it. I mean, people who don't smoke get the wrong impression about smoking. They just know that it's bad for you and can cause lung cancer and tar and whatever else non-smokers want to argue but it's not about that at all

Wolfy, the second two links you posted were a little more mellow and rational than the first, but I'm getting the idea that going to hell for suicide is a pretty mainstream Christian belief. A ridiculous quote from the first:



Then it goes on to say that if a believer commits suicide, they will not go to hell. Right.

I'm not a Christian, yet I believe that there is at least one creator, and in believing in a creator, I fail to see why such a belief would be ridiculous. It's one of the many logical conclusions that one could draw, if they believe in a god. Personally, I don't pretend to know whether suicide is frowned upon by the creator(s), yet I think that "ridiculous" is the wrong word.



What is it about? I smoked on and off for 15 years and have yet to figure out why people continue to purposely do harm to their bodies. I now attritbute my former need for cigarettes to idiocy with a side of apathy. I think most smokers fall into one or both of these categories, whether they realize it or are willing to admit it.

Logical reasons to discontinue your nasty habit:

• Saving money. Cigarettes cost the average smoker between $500-1000 per year. That is alot of money to many people. How about investing in your future or donating to people in need?
• Statistically, ex-smokers have better health, fewer days of illness, fewer health complaints, and fewer cases of pneumonia and bronchitis.
• Cuts the risk of lung cancer, other forms of cancer, heart disease, stroke, various lung diseases, and other respiratpry illnesses.
• Your food tastest better, your cough goes away, your breath smells better, and I even hear that it makes your wang bigger.

If that isn't enough to make you quit this instant, then you're obviously confident with your current wang size and don't care about your health, thus you're apathetic. I'd go into how your nasty habit harms others, but if you're apathetic about your own health, you probably don't care about anyone elses either, so I'll spare you.

My apologies if I've offended anyone, but I've never been much good at making friends.

...

if(getThingFlags(source) & 0x8){
  do her}
elseif(getThingFlags(source) & 0x4){
  do other babe}
else{
  do a dude}

Um I think like in all things concerning Catholicism sins are forgivable. God doesnt expect people to be perfect. Smoking i'm sure is forgiven, same as getting a tattoo.

Honestly I consider myself strong in my faith but i'm def. not a "by the book" catholic.
Pt. 1) I agree with the church but not on every pt. i.e. I think lesbians/gays should be allowed to be married and recognized by the church.
Pt 2.) If I were in an abusive marriage I would DEF. get a divorce regardless if it's frowned upon by the church and
Pt. 3) I have a tattoo, which u already know lol

I dont think that makes me any less of a person, and I dont think god would damn me to hell just for getting a tattoo lol Honestly everyone is able to get into heaven as long as they repent. I dont claim to be perfect I dont deny my sins. I lust, I have prob. done all 7 sins. I just ask for forgiveness, cuz I am only human ya know.

I dont know, at least that's my take on it.

If someone sprayed round-up on their lawn and ends up dieing from it, would they goto hell for "committing suicide"?!

These people spray round-up on their lawn of their own accord. And when they do, this MARKS their body... and if you are catholic, you are not allowed to mark your body (tatoos etc.) because your body belongs to god, and it is not yours. Putting dioxin perminately in your lungs, I would concider, ruining them.

Also, if you are not catholic, what would be the difference in drowning yourself in dioxin (a deadly toxin in round-up), or merely suffocating yourself to spraying round-up on your lawn?!

I really do care about the answer of these questions as smoking seems to be the scapegoat for the masses and those sheep that follow the media as they condemn just one of society's ills. especially since there are no studys done to see how many people and their pets die from round-up. and spraying round-up is more preventable than smoking.

So does this thread.


I wish everyone was as tolerant and mature as you are.

Just once, leave things in context. Please.
If you'd exercised a bit of reading comprehension, you might've realized that the act of suicide had nothing to do with going to hell or not.

Your analogy is in no way related to smoking. Smokers know that they're doing their bodies harm, as well as the bodies of their neighbors, yet they do it anyways. I'm not even sure what Round-Up is, but I'm guessing that the average individual doesn't realize that it's harmful to their body, as well as the body of their neighbor, if it even is (?).

As a former smoker, I'd appreciate it if some of you smokers would enlighten me as to why you started smoking, and why you continue to smoke, regardless of the fact that it's proven to harm yourself and those around you. An honest answer would be nice.

Smoke break time.

/me goes outside and lights up

Oh, MentatMM, if you were a former smoker than you shouldn't even have to ask that question.

You spelled dying wrong.

+1 Post!!!:p

I stated my reasons for smoking a bit above, and asked because I'm curious to see if everyone elses reasons are the same.

you've just proven my point.
round-up is illegal in quebec because it kills. it will be illegal in 2007 for commercial use in ontario and in 200(?) for residential use. for some reason it should be ok to kill people for the sake of a green lawn so they'll just phaze it out over the long term.

so my point is, 100's of tons of deadly toxins are sprayed all over our urban and suburban areas for the sole purpose of having a nice green lawn. as it turns out it is deadly poisonous. no one knows because they are all consumed with how bad smoking is for us. if for some reason the average person knew of all the highly preventable toxins that were poured into our living space we may give the government and those who run it a hard time. and the makers of round-up don't want that.

there are hundreds of things we breathe in everyday that we have no idea what they are. we just assume the manufacturers of these products think about our health first.
has anyone ever asked what's in febreeze, glade plug-ins, channel no. 6...? do they tell you on the bottle?

While that may be true, it's still no excuse for purposely doing something that is harmful to oneself and their neighbors. You make a good point though, about people getting wound up in certain things and ignoring things that may even be a greater risk.

I'm not sure where you're finding a problem. It's a pretty mainstream idea that non-believers go to Hell.

Darth Evad, the round up thing is the WORST argument I have ever heard.. that is no where close to anything that could be concidered the same situation.. that would only work if someone, knowing it was toxic, intentionally breathed in the vapors..... cause that's what smokers do.. they know it is toxic, yet they breathe it in on PURPOSE... not like the spray smoke on stuff and the only ones that die are the ones that breath it in accidently.... it is intentionally breathed, and it is deadly... as I said before.. worst argument ever.... I am not swaying one way or the other.. I have brought to light arguments on both sides.. that plus I don't believe any of it anyway.....

I hate to be a grammar nazi but slow down with the elipses there big guy.

Excuse me?!

What bothers me are those truth commercials.

"YOU MAKE PEOPLE SMOKE!!!!"

No... people smoke of their own free will.

People know cigarettes are bad.

People OBVIOUSLY don't give a crap.

I was thinking though... as far as marking one's body.

You get wrinkles when you get old.

They're a mark, right?


So there you have it. Christians are not allowed to get old.

There are many misconceptions and stereotypes of Christians and by Christians.

For example: The notion that Catholics can buy their way into heaven.

I've been to many churches that flat out say wrong things about other religions (stuff that they don't believe but the other church thinks they do)

The world is full of ignorance...

Are you just now finding out that this is a mainstream belief?



You could, at one point. Though this practice died out before the Renaissance.



You're missing the point. Wrinkles are a product of natural aging. Tar in your lungs and tattoos are not.

Yes, but if you ask how many people still believe Catholics can do that (buy way into heaven) - it's absurd.

a) Is that supposed to make it any less intolerant?
b) Are you really sure it's mainstream? I've never heard any Christians say this, really. Only the type that will hold up signs and tell homosexuals they're going to hell. I don't consider those people Christian anyway.

According to the Bible, you are forgiven for your sins exactly as much as you forgive others for their sins against you. There are no freebies. You can't just say "I'll sin just a little bit just this once, because afterall I'll be forgiven for it in the end."

How is it intolerant? Just because you believe someone is going to go to hell doesnt mean you're intolerant of those people. A true Christian would place himself right in the middle of such people, hanging out with them, working with them, having fun with them even, but all the time trying to help them. After all, where else is a Doctor needed the most but among the sick? Granted, some (many) Christians are intollerant of such people, and that is unfortunate.

This and also Confession. I'm not versed in other denominations but in Catholicism, you confess your sins before God and profess not to repeat again and you are forgiven.

Most of these products (except for perfume) will display the ingredient listing. I don't know if it's required by law in the United States (or just my state in particular).

I will admit intolerant is the wrong word. Let's try condescending. What you described is condescending. As long as Christians have such ulterior motives while being amongst the "heathens", I can never be comfortable around them. I can never feel like they just want to hang out with me. Deep down they don't approve of me and they want to convert me. To me, that's intolerance. I can't stand it.

I started a failry exclusive club last week of people, and if you don't belong, you're going to hell. How does that make you feel? Not very good, does it?

Also, a true Christian would go among these people and accept them. Actually accept them, as I'm sure Christ did. What you described above is not rue acceptance.

You're thinking about it the wrong way. It's more like "Hey, I've got this awesome club, would you like to join? All you have to do is believe in and worship God. If you do, you get to go to this awesome place called Heaven."

The whole point is not that if you dont believe you go to hell, but if you do, and live your life as a good christian, you get to go to heaven. Hell most certainly is not the place of torment we see in popular culture. Hell is simply a place without God, something that any Christian believes to be bad enough to not want to end up there.



Christ was out there trying to convert people left and right, dude.

No way. Not a Christ I could ever believe in. Conversion is invasive, condescending, and uncomfortable. No, I'm sure what drew people to him and his philosophy were his attitude and actions. Always disapproving of people and trying to change them only gets them miffed at you. What you have to do is show people you're authentic.

Read the New Testament, especially the gospel of Matthew. Christ pissed off a lot of people. And you know who was the most pissed off? The Jewish Religious Leaders, the ones who were supposed to be on his side. He undermined their authority, and contradicted him.

He gathered people to himself so that he could teach them the way to God, and to heaven. He formed a posse of 12 disciples, and told them to go out and spread the word of God.

And yet, he did show that he was authentic, at least in the eys of many Christians. All of the miracles he performed, and the resurrection.

Also, lets assume for a minute for the sake of argument that there is a Heaven. Wouldnt a little bit of uncomfortableness during life be worth everlasting happyness in the afterlife? You have to realize that Christians are only trying to help when they attempt to get others to convert. It's not their goal to go out and make other feel uncomfortable.

I'm not thinking about it the wrong way, because your description and my description are equivalent. x and x + 1 - 1 are still the same thing. Twisting it around to make it sound better doesn't affect peoples' perceptions of Christianity.



The whole point of what? I'm assuming you mean Christianity, or maybe this life. If so, then I'm not really sure how that refutes any of my concerns, but for what it's worth, I disagree that that is the "whole point" of Christianity.



If this is so, then why do so many of them feel the need to always throw it in our faces? "If you're not a Christian, you're going to HELL." Picture this statement with a somewhat condescending and elitist inflection and you get an idea of what we heathens percieve that you mean by that statement. If Christians truly did believe as you describe about hell, then why even speak of such doctrine? If hell isn't bad for non-believers, then why not quietly await the day you will be reunited with your Lord and leave the rest of us to live as we see fit?

Like I said, they are only trying to help.

It's not the best analogy, but say your friends were going to the movie theatre to see that abomination of a movie, Dungeons and Dragons. At the same time, Lord of the Rings is playing in a different theatre, but your friends aren't going to see it because they believe that Lord of the Rings isnt all its cracked up to be, even though they've heard great things about it. You, on the other hand, have seen a preview for Lord of the Rings, and believe all the great reviews you've heard for it. Would you not try to convince your friends to go see Lord of the Rings instead? And even if they kept insisting on seeing D&D instead, wouldnt you keep trying to convince them to see LotR?

This kind of thinking illustrates a big problem I have with Christianity. It's so utilitarian and non-spiritual. As long as they get their convert, they can rest at night. Forget the fact that person B, who is non-Christian, led a more righteous life than person A, who is Christian. Forget that crap. They need baptism and to believe in Christ and THEN they'll get into heaven.

Don't you understand what that says to the world? We don't care about your deeds. We don't care how compassionate, kind, and caring you are. All you need is to do arbitrary steps 1, 2, and 3 and you're saved. Don't you see? That's the underlying problem! Christianity isn't about being compassionate, kind, being a good person. If it was, good people would not be excluded from heaven. Period. God doesn't care about arbitrary steps 1, 2 and 3. He cares about you being a good person.

You try hanging out with a doctor that's constantly trying to convince you that you're sick.

There's a difference between a Doctor who's constantly trying to convince you that you're sick because he really believes that you are, and one who's constantly trying to convince you that your sick because he wants to go on another vacation sponsored by a pharmecutical company. I meant the first case.

Not to whoever's on the receiving end.

Freelancer, think of it this way... your parents conceived you and brought you into this world. Are you not thankful for this? Do you not respect them as a child should respect his parents (forget such cases as physical and emotional abuse and neglect). You could be a "good" person, but if you dont respect your parents, who have been through the exact same experiences as you and are wiser for it, it might not look all that good to an observer.

Now, assuming that a God brought us into this world, should we not respect and give him thanks for doing so? Judging from your comments, I am going to guess based on your comments that you are an agnostic- you think that there is some purpose/point to our existance, but you arent exactly sure what. Forgive me if I am wrong.

If you respect your parents, your elders, and your teachers, and do what they tell you, then it only follows that you should respect the God that created us and do what he tells us to do (assuming that you believe he exists).

If you dont respect your parents, regardless of whether or not you are a good person, you shouldnt be surprised to find out one day that they dont respect you and want nothing to do with you. For a Christian, the same is true of God, and whether or not you are accepted into Heaven in the afterlife.