Also, in an attempt to get things somewhat back on topic, the commandment "You shall not kill" as it appears in most bibles is a mis-translation. The Hebrew/Greek words for "murder" have been mistakenly translated as kill, and it has stuck in many modern versions of the Bible. If you look in the new testament, its translated correctly when Christ says "it has been said that you shall not murder."

It's an interesting thing to consider when you're discussing suicide.

Look, you can think whatever you want. I just don't and never will believe in a god who places higher stock in petty rituals than being a good person.

I never said I believe in this. I'm just trying to explain Christianity to you, because I feel the Chrisitianity you envision and disagree with is different from what Christianity really is.

Glad to be of service. Wow this turned into another misguided religious thread. Could you ride a penguin like a sled? I think that would be quite fun.

Fine, you can't fall down and get cuts and bruises. They're marks.

And you can't go outside either. The air isn't clean and will dirty your lungs.

Skim through some of the bible, and you'll understand why that is. (This isn't just me saying "ogm you'd udnertsand if u red teh bibal," but there are parts of the bible (specifically the new testament from what I remember) which go into detail about why good works will not get you into heaven. I'm no theological scholar, so I don't know enough to go into detail (been a while since I read the new testament), but maybe someone else here can elaborate for me)

But allow me to clear up a misconception many people seem to have about christianity. This is how most people seem to picture it:

Imagine every member of the human race lined up along the edge of a cliff, with some guy named Jesus slowly walking down the line, asking people to believe in him. Those that say they won't, he pushes off the cliff to their doom. those that do get to walk away.

People see it as God punishing everyone who doesn't believe in him. But that's not the case (as far as I understand).

Now picture it a little differently. Imagine every member of the human race dangling from the edge of the cliff, hanging on for their life. Some guy named Jesus is walking along the top of the cliff, trying to pull people back up to safety. Those that let him are saved, but those that don't eventually lose their grip and fall to their doom.

According to the christian beliefs, we are all sinners, and therefor we are all damned to go to Hell. God has offered us a gift in the form of Jesus, so that we may be saved. But not everyone accepts the gift. A lot of people see it as "IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE YOU ARE DAMNED FOR ETERNITY.", when really it's more of the opposite. We're all damned, but through Christ we are saved.

Yeah... I'm rambling now. I hope my post was understandable, though

A lot of religions have "petty rituals." In fact, rituals are what make up religions. Catholics take the Sacraments. Jews have Passover. Islams practice Ramadan.

Umm... okay... tfti

I guess at this point, its time for me to step in to clarify some things:


1) It is one of the biggest misconceptions of all time to believe christians are called to convert the masses. They are called to inform the masses. Beyond that, only God can convert a heart; a christian's call is only to make sure people aren't mistaken in their perceptions of christianity, and have their facts right. If they do, and still don't believe, then Jesus said it best when sending his apostles to preach for the first time (paraphrasing here): "Shake the dust from your feet, and move on."

2) Yes, in christianity, all non-believers end up in the Lake of Fire. Ironically, that also goes for some people who call themselves believers, but participate in christianity for alterior motives (power, influence, etc). There is a reason Jesus tells the parable of some people locked out of heaven, standing at the gate shouting "let us in! We know you and you taught in our streets!" and him replying "I tell you the truth, I do not know you - go away you wicked people!" To view it like "join or die" is indeed backwards from the christian perspective. Its more like everyone is on a burning catwalk, and there are ropes to the side everyone can jump to and reach safely. Some have jumped, and caught the rope, and others are too scared to try, be it personal fear, jaded cynicism that there aren't really enough ropes for everyone, or thinking the rope will break when they jump for it, or they will miss.

In other words, from the christian perspective, everyone starts off going to hell. Equal footing. From there, there are those who jump for that safety rope, and others who don't for their own reasons.

You might not like that perspective, but that is what the christian perspective is - everyone deserves to go to hell, christians and non alike, but only by grabbing that safety rope can you save yourself from that. There was even a nice man named Jesus who jumped onto the burning catwalk while still holding onto the rope, and offered for anyone who's scared to just climb across his back to get to the rope, to make things easier.

The thing is, while he's tied to the rope and going to be ok, that catwalk is only going to last so long before it falls and Jesus is forced to let go. But it's not because He didn't try.

You lost me right there. Why?

Yes, it is. Catholicism and (at least) the majority of Protestant religions believe in it. The reason that most don't say it is because 99% of non-believers find it offensive. I, myself, only brought it up because someone else brought it up. I've got a Wiccan friend, and a number of atheist friends. We hang out frequently, and greatly enjoy each other's company. They know that I am a Christian, and that I believe they are going to Hell. But we get along fine anyway because I don't bring it up, because there's no need to.



Catholicism is the only major faith of Christianity (that comes to mind) that relies upon rituals (if confession can be called such) for salvation. The majority of Protestant faiths (and I say majority because there's probably at least one faith that believes otherwise) believe that we are saved simply by accepting Jesus Christ as our savior and try to live in accordance to the commandments of the Bible. Some say that baptism is necessary for salvation, but it's my personal belief that it's simply a natural result of believing that Christ is the Son of God and Savior.

I must apologize if I've offended you. It was not my intent to do so - I simply felt that you had some misconceptions about Christianity.



You shouldn't intentionally cut yourself, but receiving such injuries from falling down wouldn't be in conflict with that rule. In addition, breathing is necessary to live. I reiterate: tattoos and smoking are not.

Ok, here it goes - theology time.

This is one of those "life isn't fair; make the most of it" things.

Now, I say all the following with the caveat that this is how chrisitans view God, and what God in the Bible reveals about himself.


God is holy - meaning he is perfect; without belmish or wrongdoing. Because of this, by His very nature, he cannot tolerate even the slightest of sin (read, wrongdoing). Little white lie, being mean to someone - everyone does it, and all are as equal to God as the most horrible thing in your own mind you feel someone can do to another human being (and probably worse to Him).

That's just the way he is built. As such, anyone who even has the slightest blemish who approaches him would be completely obliterated by God's innate nature.

Now, all that given, God still loves his creation (us), even though we have gone awry - therefore, He came up with the perfect loophole to get around his nature...Jesus. Through his death, we get sort of a "soul clensing", thus when the soul gets to God, its perfect, and can co-exist with God's nature.

The caveat there is the only way to have Jesus "clense your soul" upon death, is to accept him in the first place.


That's the main intricasies - I hope I wasn't too muddled in my explanation.

Wolfy -

Born and raised Catholic, and I still go to Catholic church, and I don't feel I need any rituals for salvation. Just faith in Jesus.

Believe me, the stuff there is complicated, and a lot of it unnecessary, and to be honest, minor quibbles among christians - the main point is to make sure people are informed correctly about chrisitanity overall - and I have met on more than one occasion people of each denomination not doing their job in that regard - and I include my own in that.

let's not confuse anyone with the intracisies of denominations (the split should have never happened anyway) - instead, focus on what unites.

Wolfy, "accepting Jesus as your savior" is a petty ritual. Why? Because if you don't take that arbitrary step, you aren't getting into heaven. Therefore it's a necessary ritual to undergo before entering heaven. I have a big problem with that, because as I said earlier:

Person A is Christian.
Person B is not.

Person B is more righteous than person A.

Person A goes to heaven.
Person B goes to hell.

This makes no sense. At all.

Yeah.. i mean who'd want to be in a heaven without someone like Ghandi?

Not according to the Catholic Youth Minister I talked to. Official Catholic rules say that you are not cleansed of your sins unless you confess them to a priest. Unless you die before you had a chance to go to confession, and then, as long as you wanted to be forgiven of your sins and felt genuinely sorry for them, and were planning on going to confession, then you're okay.



Accepting Jesus as your savior is equivalent to accepting God's extended right hand when He offers to help you. By accepting Christ as your Savior, you are stating that you believe in God, believe in what He has to say, and that you accept the fact that it is only through Him that you can avoid the fate that all deserve (Hell).

God doesn't want us to just do nice things and behave. He wants us to do nice things, behave, and believe in Him. Person A can sin seven times a day, but as long as he is truly sorry and asks God for forgiveness, God will forgive him. Person B has the exact same opportunity, but God will only forgive him if Person B asks Him, and for Person B to ask Him, he has to believe in God.

Smoking is not suicide. And for those people saying "well it is cause the people know that they'll die from it", that's a load of crap. People know they can die by doing the following: eating unhealthy foods, having anger problems, drinking excessivly, living in areas with air pollution, and taking dangerous risks. I'd say that it's suicide if your aim is to halt your ability to live in one swift action (by gun to the head, hanging, slitting of wrist, poison consumption, etc.).

it is the same argument.
people smoked free and carelessly until someone told them it was bad for them. study after study showed them it would kill them.
no one tells anyone that round-up, teflon, scotch guard (until recently and that was yanked off the shelf over night after spending 20 years of spraying it on everything fabris we could find), could kill us. when the government funds a study showing that the toxins in this pesticide (and other contaminants) can and do kill us everyday then people may take notice. and maybe the focus will fall from smoking to the greater ills of society. it just so happens that smoking is addictive as hell and the goverment knows it can say it will kill you and people will still smoke and the government will still make billions in tax dollars.
it's all a big ****ing scam to keep our heads up our asses and off what the real problems are. and the real problem ain't smoking. it's far from it.
diet, exercise, persistent toxins in everyday use... as well as smoking. they are all very well equal. yet everyone is focused on the smoking. it's bull****.

I liked the Cow's response on Jesus pulling people up from the cliff.

*claps*

Actually I thought that was pretty good too, considering it happens AFTER we die, that is.

You are missing the point completely...

If I lent my friend my car. I would expect that it will get some dust on it, or maybe a scratch or two... but what I wouldn't be happy with is if my friend spray painted "Spiral SUCKS!" on the side of it... or even if he painted "I LOVE SPIRAL" on the side.. granted, he would be praising me.. but he'd still be ruining my car.

No, I think you missed the point.

Your argument sucks.

ha

Oh, so you mean the "Official Rules" that seem to change all the time depending on which priest, minister, or chruch-goer you talk to? Those "Official Rules"?


Nothing official about them. They were made up by nuns from an older generation. Talk some some of the people brought up during Vatican II - most of them will tell you that while going to a priest is encouraged, it isn't necessary.

That is unless, its a greedy priest just trying to increase attendence - I have no regard for such people.


Of course, you will believe what you want about catholics in your little game of "telephone", and of course, your source must be correct, because it's yours, and I must be wrong, even though I am catholic to begin with.


*sigh*


It's such an uphill battle when people vomit their misconceptions as truth, and then when you correct them, have them tell you that you are wrong about what you participate in, that they merely heard about through the grapevine...





Freelancer - I guess my explanation did nothing for you? I want to know if you had any comprehension issues with it, as I am always trying to tidy up my explanations, and not make them too complicated.

I understand it perfectly well. I just don't agree with it. Again, why is everyone inherently evil again?

I'm sorry. I guess it was my mistake to take the word of a man who has received the sponsorship of the Catholic church as one capable of leading a group of twenty teens in what the church considers to be appropriate teaching over you.

Evil is a very relative term. A better term to use would be flawed.

Which, due to God's very nature, makes it impossible for a close coexistance, because he is flawless.

It's like holding a piece of paper to a fire - it gets burnt up.

But dip it in a fire-protective coating, and it can take the heat, Jesus being that coating.



Wolfy - love the sarcasm. I can tell from that you are not one who cares to really get to the bottom of things and look for the truth, but rather one who seems to hold catholocism in low regard; I am assuming from your thinly veiled denominationalist stance.

Sorry, but I just find it sad when christians have to pick on other christians, be it blatant or veiled, all in the name of what amounts to a pissing contest. We're all going in the same direction anyway, so why start fights? Why think less of another denomination? Certainly not what God would want.

There seems to be so much anger behind those last words you typed - meh, it could just be me, although your sarcasm wasn't lost on me.

Funny though, I never told you about my position in the Catholic church, nor have you asked, and neither have you considered the fact that there might be people in power in a church who don't deserve to be, and who lack understanding.

But please, you seem like the type who enjoys hatred more than acceptance, and prefers people to be in your church than just a church, so continue with your wonderful, covert bigotry. Just know its not the right message to be sending to someone who doesn't believe.

Yes, I do take offense to a church who calls me, to my face, a heretic. I realize that a good percentage of people in the Catholic church are "cool," for lack of a better wording - some of my closest friends are Catholic. But I still think that the Catholic church - officially, anyway - is too bogged down by rituals (praying to the Saints, confession, last rites, etc.) and bureaucracy.

*Coughcoughhackhacccckkkkkkcoughcough*