Well i was brought up as a catholic, and then i realized the hypocricy of it all. There is not just one religon, therefore not making one religon the right one. Religion is just a leap of faith, that there is an omniscient force over us. Supposedly we have free will but then we have this book known as the bible giving us all these rules, that if we dont abide by then we will go to hell. That is so hypocritical, yes i know free will is choice, but, however why would a God give us the choice to listen or not listen if there really was a God. I just don't believe in anything. There are no miracles like there were in the bible. I just think that a bunch of aristocrats were smoking and wrote a story that would later take the world by storm.

I'll let two letters and a dot explain:

AHAHAHAHAHA.

That is the comment from a genius, to believe in something so ridiculous I think is merely childish. Its sort of like Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. We are made to believe these things until we reach an age were we just see it for what it is.

You're free to believe that, but I think abstaining from insults would be nice.



Then what evidence is there that leads you to believe that atheism is the correct path?

Im sorry if i offended you, i did not mean to in anyway what so ever. Im not saying to not believe in anything, im just stating my opinion. Im not trying to make anyone believe something they really would not like to.

I don't need a religion, I'm perfectly capable of leading my own life.

And you're saying that religious people are not?

I hate to say it, but Catholicism is one big money making scheme.

BTW atheism should be considered a religion too.

I hate to say it, but Marx described religion the best.

"Beyond the Alps lies more Alps, and the Lord helps those that Alp themselves"?

I'm a Roman Catholic. I'm not even going to bother to respond to what's been said.

YES.

NO.

In that order.

As for what I think, religion is like mayonnaise - it's just not for me. I'm prefectly happy bumbling along in my own little world, where cause and effect dominates my life. My choices, my consequences. All forms of omnipotence imply a level of predestination I'm just not happy with.

Aside from my own beliefs/lack of them, I find religion fascinating and have nothing but respect for people who have faith (so long as it's never shoved down my throat).

I agree with the mayonnaise worshiper.

Whatever floats yer boat, but it just aint for me.

Obviously, they need some form of higher power to guide them.

Some do, but not all.

I agree. I think that religion is a pyramid scheme developed for the soul purpose of profits. The 1st commandment states though shall have no other Gods before me. If you really read the bible, you are not allowed to worship relics or statues and catholics have the rosary, figurines of the saints, church. and in the church they ask for donations, so what else is there to believe but its all just a marketing system based on societies flaw of greed.

Uh, you don't worship relics and statues, you worship what they represent. Catholics worship Jesus, the Saints, the Virgin Mary and others...they are important holy figures in the history of Catholocism, not gods.

And where do you get that donations = greed? The church needs to get money from SOME place. How else can you build churches, hire musicians or pay for Bibles and song books? Or any of the other expenses?

I'm not a big fan of the Catholic church, but you're just plain talking out of your ***. Do you have like, a random fact creator that just spews forth random data from your bodily orifices? At least try to do some research.

no i actually had some people come to my house, (jehova's) and state those things to me, so i was just relying the message. Yeah but i just find religion to broad. There are just to many to choose from. Its like choosing a new puppy though once you find the right one you stick with it. i know you dont have to critize on my metaphor Ill do that for you. Bad Gnostica dont ever use a metaphor like that again. Sorry but I guess i just havent found the one that suits my own beliefs, thats why I really don't believe much in it.

I'm an atheist, but I'm not a religion hater.

One thing I don't buy into, however, is what was mentioned about hell. There is supposed to be free will, but having a choice between hell and heaven is no choice at all. That leads me more to believe that the idea of hell was invented by the papacy to frighten peasants and sometimes the nobility and stabilize the hierarchy that existed, which was quite benificial to the clergy. That's my take on it.

Jehovah's Witnesses are not Catholic and well...the door to door ones...I think I'll stop there.

Jehova's witness != Jesus folk




Whatever flots your boat or bakes your beans kids.

But that isn't a reason to be a pretentious you know trying to force some crap down someone elses throat. Be it by insulting people who have faith, because in your own little jaded world being faithless somehow makes you smarter (you kid yourself, and suck at life if you feel because you don't have faith that you are better than those with faith). Same goes for those with faith, who can't shut the hell up about it and look down upon others.

Athiesm SHOULD NOT BE A RELIGION. Whoever said that... needs to go BUY A DICTIONARY.


Me? I prefer to remain agnostic. If you can show me an atom of truth, I'm willing to believe.


Apples to oranges, Religion creates a problem because people are too shallow to grasp the fact that... GASP, people might think differently than they do and GASP, that doesn't make them inferior to them.

Major religions are part of the cultural evolution of human societies. It's quite useless to try to analyse the big religions as if they were invented yesterday, forgetting that in truth they have been here hundreds and hundreds of years. The mankind has evolved since those days (or at least a part of the mankind). If you analyse religions, you must also analyse history. I think their role was very essential in the past, though it has been somewhat lessening during the last few centuries.

Aye, in the 16th Century (the period of European and English history I studied at A-level), and I'm sure for centuries before and since politics and religion were completely inseperable.

Take the Pope for instance. Back in those days the Papacy was one of the most powerful men on the planet - often they were also corrupt and greedy - contrast with today's pope, whom people are trying to shuffle out of office (another great debate there) - he's too old, frail to carry on effectively.

If anyone says the church is greedy or corrupt now, check out the Catholic Church at the time of the great Schism: those certainly were interesting times let me tell you

ive met a few really bad examples of christianity, and i still find the christian union rather scary, which i hide, cos I talk to some of them.

But i still cant forget the time Paul said he feels sorry for us non believers cos we're all going to hell. I should have gotten 100% pagan on his arse!!!

I can respect the faith of those who dont throw it in my face and use it to persecute me. A few people who are christians on massassi, i'm very fond of, such as Wolfy, he's cool.

I also respect the faith of Islam more than Judaism, which my friends taunt me for. Oh well.

I summarise by saying this:

Religions are a good thing, but its inevitable that lesser humans will manipulate it to their own desires (war, hate etc)

if(getThingFlags(source) & 0x8){
  do her}
elseif(getThingFlags(source) & 0x4){
  do other babe}
else{
  do a dude}

I can tolerate religious people. But I just can't take them seriousely. How do I feel about it? It's a reminder to us all of how small and limited the human mind really is.

...some people really make athiests look bad.

Wolfy, I've had this argument with you before, and this is my take on it:

There are hundreds, if not thousands, of religions. It would be silly to be religious because that would mean I would have to pick a religion. Why should I pick Christianity over Hinduism? Why be a Quaker instead of a Taoist? What about the religions that are cults in disguise?

You asked me why I was so sure atheism is the "correct choice." I didn't really have a definitive answer for you then, but now I do. Atheism isn't a path. At least in my experience, becoming an atheist was nothing like choosing a path or a religion. If you must think of atheism as a "path", then this so-called "path" is infinitely broader than any religion.

It's more suitable to call a specific religion a path, because its followers are bound by the beliefs and restrictions of their religion. Whereas with atheists, you get a far wider spectrum of beliefs and personal restrictions. To reiterate: I never "chose" the "path" of atheism as you suggest we atheists all do. In fact, look up the term "ignostic" on google and that's pretty much me. (It's fairly slang).

Gnostica, you're missing the point about Free Will. God is not forcing us to love him, to worship him. You are not commanded to follow the rules of the bible at all. God wants us to worship him becuase we want to... you make the choice to follow whats said in the bible. He has given us free will, because he knows that our love for him will be far greater if it comes about on its own accord, than if he forces us to do it.

Flexor, care to elaborate?

Now that would be a complete waste of my time. The only people who would understand already agree with me anyways.

Skål, Flexor!

ohh no I understand free will fine, its just their are so many hypocricy's of it. I just feel that we do make choices here but it doesnt seem to matter to God if we feel there the right ones. If there bad then were condemned for it even if we feel that the choice we made was the right one. I just don't understand why religon is such a great belief. I mean everyone does have to believe in something, thats what makes us human. I don't know I just find everything that religon amounts down to is politics, but thats just my opinion.

O_o

Perhaps you're just not capable of explaining it in a clear manner?

Pretty much like 'Cheers, Flexor!'

Oh it's not like it's particularly complicated. I just don't bother arguing with christians anymore.

Please guys, settle down. I don't want this thread going anywhere. I like it.

(At least the parts where people don't vaguely insult each other). Some of us are actually discussing things in a fairly objective and non-insulting manner.

No one asked you to argue anything.

Freelancer: Maybe you can convince Flexor too explain his view?

Exactly why I hate to call myself an atheist. I still think that people shouldn't attack *just* Christianity - or moreover just Catholics. I've had so many pagan friends do this. They also tell me that they're goddess will smite me for not believing or whatever. I grew up in a *very* Catholic town. The majority of them were very nice and I have to say the only time I was told I was going to hell was by a Baptist pastor. I dunno...I just get annoyed when everyone attacks Christanity and nothing else.

I'm an atheist, or as Stephen Colbert put it, "the belief in one's own smug sense of superiority."

I'd hope so too, but when you look at many of the ongoing conflicts in the world, and how differences in ideology have often been used as a driving force or catalyst behind them by both sides, I'm not so sure. :|

Just from the past 20 years:
Israel-Palestine + neighbours, India-Kashmir-Pakistan, Iran-Iraq, Ireland & Northern Ireland, Former Yugoslavia, Chechnya + the Caucasus, Ethiopia, et al.