If there's any smiting to be done, I shall be the one to do it.

Heathens. :p

(No really, anyone claiming their diety will smite you for not believing should just keep politely quiet imo)

Return to your inquisiting chaps and chapettes.

I think that Christianity says that intent does matter though.

Regardless, I admit that yes, it is and and always has been a lot of politics, but I think you should judge a religion by its rules, ideas, and ideals alone, not by the people that practice it.

Case in point: So many Christians forget what one of the most important creeds of their religion means: "Forgive us our sins as we forgive those that sin against us." This is basically saying that you recieve the exact same amount of forgiveness from God as you deal out yourself.

This saying has been misinterpreted in two ways. First, the forgiveness of others. Many people are unwilling to forgive others, because they are confusing the word "Forgiveness" with "excusing." They think that by forgiving someone, they are saying "well what you did wasnt really all that bad after all." They say, "why should I forgive this person? he's been an absolute jerk to me." Thats the whole point... Forgiveness is acknowledging that what the other person did was, indeed, bad, but saying at the end of the day that you bear no ill will towards him. If that person continues to commit acts of sin against you, you should be continuing to forgive him, and at the same time, trying to help him to stop.

Seconly, the forgiveness of ourselves that we recieve from God. Many times, when Christians ask for forgiveness, what they are really asking for in their heads is acceptance of their excuses. Everyone would like to believe that when they have committed a sin, there were extenuating circumstances that make it ok. To quote CS Lewis, "We imagine that we have repented when all that has really happened is that we have satisfied ourselves with our own excuses." Again, forgiveness is not the same as excusing.

So what we have in Christianity is a bunch of hypocrites... people who refuse to accept other's "excuses" but expect our own "excuses" to be accepted by God. But really, they aren't even following the religion, as everyone is so caught up in "excuses" when they should be concerning themselves over "forgiveness," something that is completely different. This is why you should judge religion on the religion itself, not the people who follow it.

Why atheism over theism? You've got the numbers 0 through 1 million. Why is 3 better than 50? 67 better than 834? Because you feel that it is the better choice.



At a fork in the road, you have taken a left instead of a right. Simply because you have not chosen one path does not mean you have chosen no path at all.



You are bound by your own personal beliefs and restrictions. You have made a decision, and, as I said before, you are simply following a path that you have decided to follow. At any time, if I felt that my religion was not right for me, I could quite easily switch to another path. You have the same capability. So why don't we? Because we believe that our individual paths are the right choice for ourselves.

There's a book I think several people in this thread would like, it has some interesting perspecitves on the state and status of religion in the US. The title is "Killing the Buddha", though it only briefly talks about Buddhism. Although the subtitle is "A Heratics Bible", it isn't some kind of atheistic rant about religion. Atheism isn't even mentioned, if I remember correctly. Basically, it's a collection of stories about various american religions, between essays about various books of the bible.

Just so everyone has a reference point to how I'm judging this, I hover somewhere between deism and secular humanism in terms of my own beliefs. I was raised in liberal christian church, and although it has been misused I belive that all major religions and atheism are basicly morally good.

You know nothing about Christianity. What you are describing is ancient Judaism.


I'm surprised at how few people understand this. If God wanted puppets to mindlessly follow Him, that's what he would've made. With free will, those that follow him to so out of choice.

Aristocrats. That's gold.

Yeah, I'm not reading the rest of this thread.

Yes, all of the commandments are there for your own good, not His.

It's so very interesting how this thread is supposedly about religion, but easily 90% of the thread has directly addressed issues concerning Christianity or indirectly addressed them. What about the Seven Pillars? The Talmud? The Gitas? The Leader? (see if ya catch that one... )

I'm going to be the one to open up this thread to talking about religion and the human condition, not just Christianity. I think a good place to start is the origin of religion. Where did it come from? Why was it developed? Only in the past millennium has atheism gained a lot of notoriety, due to the Enlightenment and Renaissance, which saw the death of widespread superstitious beliefs. Except for the Western world, correct me if I'm wrong, all other cultures have developed a religious belief system of some sort. Cultures that were completely detached from the Known World believe in the supernatural. Is that because atheism is introduced along with modern science and it's all part of social development/evolution? When primitive African tribes finally grasp modern science, will atheism be too far behind or will they see beyond the microscope and the material, to recognize an unseen, spiritual side of life? Why is history riddled with belief in the divine? Can all of the supernatural be explained away or are the mysteries excused by those who don't wish to believe or explain?

DISCLAIMER: This is just armchair observation, not the result of many hours of deliberate study of the subject. I'm by no means an expert, but just an ignorant hick who's putting his two cents in on "how humans have a thing for religion."

Seven? I thought it was Five?

Okay, I couldn't resist. Since there has been a lot of talk about Christianity and I, being the opinionated Christian I am, feel a little interested in registering my thoughts on what's been said. Maybe I don't have much to say, b/c DSett hit the nail on the head pretty well with the "Don't judge a religion by its cover." But what would I like to add?

I'm starting to not blame non-Christians for not liking Christianity. A lot of people have done a lot of things that nobody should be or would be proud of, except themselves and the people who all agree with them. Case-in-point:

A lot of dark movies are made in Hollywood, because a lot of filmmakers see life as a tragedy. Christians, on the other hand, believe that life doesn't end in tragedy, even though it's rough at times. In that belief is hope (and usually a compassion to get others to see it too). So a few Christians who have unplugged butts go out to Hollywood, trying to make movies that don't necessarily preach to audiences, but have some redemptive value and happy endings. They see themselves as being effective ministers of the gospel. Not being one or witnessing the effects of this, I wouldn't know if they are effective or not. But the deal is that they're there trying to show what's good about Christianity, exposing the core values and beliefs that may have been missed by the fundies. However, it's the fundies that give the Christian filmmakers the most grief. The rest of Hollywood could care less what Christian filmmakers do as long as there's no preaching involved. But the Church constantly criticizes the people who are out there trying to give a good name to their religion. An actual example of this is the XXX Church. Mike and Craig--two pastors that run the XXX Church--actually set up at porn expos and try to be witnesses for Christ there. They even befriended a producer that was across the aisle from them and he helps them get into these expos and stuff. However, it's the Church that gives these people grief. The people who supposedly believe in the same God and the same Bible and the same Savior. Christ is quoted in the Bible as saying "a prophet is not accepted in his hometown." One time, he went to the synagogue in his hometown to preach and he no sooner opened his mouth than he was run out of there by an angry mob of parishioners that tried to toss him off a cliff. He went onto bigger and better things after that. So it's not like the people who are out there gaining the attention of the "sinners" are really wrong, because the religious "right" doesn't know better. In the Bible, both Jesus and Paul usually were pretty gentle and amiable when talking to people who were strangers to Judaism and the gospel. They were the harshest on the people who were already Jews and already knew what they had to say. By most people who come after them, they are considered the heroes of the faith. Of course, the people who criticized them looked like idiots all across the board. I think we're still seeing the exact same things today. There have been scores of examples since to illustrate the same point, too. John Huss, anyone? So in a really long, drawn out way, I'm basically echoing what DSett said. I guess I'm giving you the case studies for it now, though. Just my two cents. For that and a nickel, you can get a cup of coffee.

Read my disclaimer.

Oh, oops.

Gah, how about helping out those of us with old eyes with some paragraphs? :p

I'd just like to point out that many Christians believe that free will is an illusion. However, you're all probably correct in your generalization, as most Christians most likely believe that we do indeed have free will.



My so-called faith is based on simple logic. I find it more likely that there was always one or more creators than to believe in what I consider to be spontaneous creation (I realize that most scientists would laugh at that phrase). I have yet to see a creation theory, scientific or religious, that convinces me to lean either way. Personally, I feel that when scientists discover the true means of creation, they'll be staring at the face of the creator(s) and the methods in which were used.



I disagree. I think it's quite possible that a deity can exist and yet not know what the future holds. Personally, I think to assume that a creator must know everything is illogical.



I would argue that it's quite possible to believe in god(s) and to believe that they play no role in our lives whatsoever. Actually, that would be a deist by definition. So unless you're claiming that deists are spiritual, yet not religious, you're wrong. Personally, I believe in at least one creator, and I see no evidence that I'm being guided, and feel no need to be guided.



Many Christians believe that hell is simply symbolic for the grave, and that one simple ceases to exist. This is especially true amongst many Pentecostal sects. I'm not quite sure how I feel about afterlife theories.



^ Words of wisdom. ^

Old? I bet you can't even grow a full beard yet!

I never said I was a Christian. I'm genuinely interested in why you can't take religious people seriously, and how Religion implies that the human mind is "small and limited."

Edit: And like Sithlord said, no one is asking you to argue anything. We'd just like you the present your reasoning behind your opinions.

The XXX Church is a really, really cool ministry.

But anyways, I think it's sad that some people are so close-minded and prejudiced against people that don't share the same mindset.

Flexor said something like, "I don't bother arguing with Christians anymore" - that really bothers me. It's completely prejudiced.

Funny how many conclusions you can draw without actually knowing my explanation. DS, Sithlord, there's a good reason why I don't talk about this to christians anymore, and prejudice is often a good thing to have.

The thread title asks what I think of religion, and I answered. I don't have to explain myself if I don't want to, so I suggest you just let it go.

no i know there for my own good i just dont believe theres a god or in any religion, thats all im saying but i guess one day i may be mistaken and really start believing. who knows.

And we don't have to stop asking a reasoning behind your thinly-veiled insult.

There's a good reason why I don't talk about this to people like you anymore, and prejudice isn't even necessary since you've already made it clear what kind of person you are.

What everyone should realize is that "the creator" is probably some alien dude in a high-energy physics lab, who is now scratching his head over the anomalous results from the latest particle accelerator run.

The whole point of Atheism is that there is no evidence so there is no need to waste your time in church.

What evidence leads you not to believe in Zombie Bigfootism?

Using god to explain things you still face the same problem as using science, so why bother trying to add an extra step?

People define God as "the being which created everything".

Is that definition logically sound? No. It implies that everything needs a creator, which means god would need to be created by a higher god as would that god and that one...
We know that's not the case because were here today to discuss it (since there could be no starting point in that situation). The other alternative is that god created himself. However you face a catch 22 and hypothetically if god could create itself why would it create itself before creating the universe? Surely it would skip out the unneeded step and just create the universe. This whole scenario is obviously flawed logically since that situation could never exist.

The way I see it, using God as an explanation just adds another unnecessary step in the birth of the universe. Whether you include god in the equation or not you still end up with the same problem and the same result, thus we can logically remove god from the equation entirely.

That is why athiesm is the only real choice.

[Edit: My spelling sucks]

You've missed my point. There is no empirical evidence that you can say, for sure, "This is scientifically proven to be the correct way."



Because you're unable to comprehend something that exists outside of logic?

It wasn't intended as an attack. If you find my reasoning to be insulting, that's not my problem.

But since you all wanted an explanation, here's a partial one:

If I may ask, how do you know your religion is right for you? Let me guess: your parents/siblings/neighborhood/whatever is Christain, so you are too. You were indoctrinated with Christianity when you were young. Have you truly put a lot of thought into why you hold your beliefs? I did, and I came to the conclusion that I was forced into a religion because I was born into it. Why should Christianity be my religion simply because I was born into it. I'm taking a step back and reexamining my beliefs. I wouldn't really call myself a true atheist, but when you're in limbo between belief systems it's natural to embrace.

I guess the same reasoning is why I hate patriotism. All patriotism is is the conviction that your country is great because you were born in it. It involves no real objective examination. I decided for myself that it worked the same way with the religion I grew up in. I was misled into believing something that on objective analyzation I may not have ever believed had I been given the chance.

Can you be an athiest if you simply don't care? I don't deny the existance of God nor do I believe it--I just don't bloody care.

I tend to be more of the Deistic mindset. There's probably some sort of higher power, but I don't see that power really playing a role in the world. And as far as after we die, I really don't know. It's a possibility, but I don't believe there's a hell, at least.

I believe the correct term for that would be apathetic agnosticism, or apatheism. I think I'm in that category myself.

Good to know.

I've never heard those terms before, though. I should use them, just to be cool like that.

To be fair, apatheism was coined in 2003, but it's gaining recognition.

Well...yes. Familial influence is typically a strong factor in the majority of a person's decision early on in life.

But I have made the conscious decision to stay with my religion because it feels right to me. There exists no rationality in my choice - there is no logic, because God exists outside of logic. I made the conscious decision, with absolutely no pressure from my church, family, or real-life friends, to get baptised just this year.

I don't deny that the biggest reason I started as a Christian is because my parents are. But the biggest reason why I've continued to try and be a Christian is because of myself, and how I feel.

...and thats another problem I have with religion. Answers to questions which cannot be answered properly are always answered with synonyms of "faith" and "magic". Sometimes you can talk to a person about an aspect of religion and they will answer scientifically accurate answers until they get stuck then they will resort to "uh.. magic!".

As i always say, religion is the crutch of our society. It's a support system that leaves us weak. My philosophy is, once you realize that there is no God, nobody to control the world and make things better, no greater being with a plan for, the more you realize you have absolute control over the direction of your own life. And therefore, the stronger you can become.
Religion is a big cause for much of the problems of the world today, such as genocide, racism, sexism, etc... And to think, it started out so innocently.

[note: I've not read any of the thread yet, just thought I'd go right ahead and post my views on it]

No, religion is the excuse for much of the problems of the world today. If it's not Muslims versus Christians, it's one nationality versus another, or one race versus another.



Er...citations? I've yet to have someone explain the cause of gravity, or the theory behind wormholes, or what lies beyond our universe with "faith" and "magic."



I'm sorry if I'm the only one who finds being called small-minded and limited offensive.

It's ok, Wolfy. Posts like Flexor's serve to remind us all how much worse the human mind can be.

Disclaimer: The above "wasn't intended as an attack. If you find my reasoning to be insulting, that's not my problem."


PS. I'm not really sure how legal this post is. =/
It's meant to demonstrate the flaw in what's already been said.

Lets say that there are three men about to jump out of a plane thinking about gravity.

The first man says that he feels gravity, he knows its power. He has even studied books about gravity and looked at much evidence of gravity. The first man believes in gravity and what it does. He knows that he will need a parachute to survive the jump. He has taken classes and practiced endlessly and is prepaired for the jump The first man jumps out of the plane with the parachute and lands safely on the ground.


The second man knows a little less about gravity. He has heard a few things about the physics of gravity. He isn't quite sure if it exists or not. He also isn't quite sure of all of the facts about gravity.

He figures if he jumps, he might be fine, but he might also be in trouble, so he takes a parachute, just in case. He figures, "Hey, the parachute won't hurt anything, I might as well take it just to be on the safe side." He did take the parachute, but he didn't completely rely on it. He did not persue learning how to operate the parachute.

Even though he did take the parachute along for safety's sake, he didn't know how to use it very well. He wasn't as perpaired for the jump.

The second man then jumps out of the plane with the parachute, but doesn't know how to work it. He finally pulls the chord, but it's too late, he lands too hard and dies from the impact.


The third man, however, does not believe in gravity. He has heard the other guys talk about gravity, and he can't believe how silly it all sounds. He refuses to be slave to a higher power such as gravity. Why should he take a parachute, he figures doesn't need it and it is too much hassel, he can survive all on his own.

The third man jumps out of the plane without a parachute, falls to the ground and splats.






Moral: Stuff will happen whether you believe in it or not.

I love the post above mine about the parachutes. It's very true.

I do -completely- believe in Jesus Christ and that the Bible is the only true authority for what I believe.
Yeah, I think there is some corruption with things like the Catholic church. That's why I'm protestant (non-denominational).
The importance is not on the loyalty to a church, though. What's important is the loyalty to Christ.

After really obeying the things written in the Bible (written for my own good) there have been only positive effects. I -know- God's love in my life.

If I'm wrong. If there is no God. I've lost nothing. You will have gained whatever joy you gain from living by your own morals and beliefs. I will have gained whatever peace and happyness that I have from following after Christ (even for the sake of this example, he did not exist.)

Now lets say He did exist, and I was completely right in what I believed. I will have gained eternal life in heaven with my Lord. You will have gained hell.


Just because you say "I can breathe underwater" "I don't need a parachute" or "Standing in the middle of the highway is perfectly safe" does not mean you won't die. Whatever 'opinion' you have does not determine what is true.

If any of you want to harrass me or question me about religion/Christ I'd love to answer any questions you have.

combo_limit@hotmail.com

Heh. I'd be suprised if anyone gave me a question I couldn't answer....

Okay. That's my post. Chew it up however you wish.

I'm Christian. :p

Atheists bug me. If you don't fit into this description, then I respect you. I've always noticed this about Massassian debates. These people make up things about the christian religion that aren't right in any sense. They attack the people who believe, they always say that the bible is a fairy tale, and they always say that God is a dick. I cannot stand these people. These people know nothing about religion.
On the other hand, people who who simply say "whatever floats your boat" or that they respect religious people, even the people who just say "leave me alone", these people are alright. Bwaah!
I'm not going to read through all these replies, because I know that there will be a whole lot of both groups,plus a few christians, and a few people who think that they're catholic because their mommy took them to church. It's always the same.