Now, some verses that REALLY confuse me are Genesis 1:6-8:

6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.


Now, this is where the thought of huge amounts of water under the earth's crust and of a "water canopy" come from. But, it's obviously not talking about the land (or firmament) that we live on since God calls it Heaven. Here's where my confusion comes in. If that means the Heaven it seems to mean, what would that have to do with the creation of the earth, and didn't God create "the heavens" in the beginning? But, if this IS talking about the land we live on, why would God call it Heaven and what water is it talking about? I'm guessing the water vapors (including clouds) in the air and maybe underground springs and such?

Color me befuddled.

Link works fine for me. YOURE INTARNET DEID!!1

*cough* I mean, try it one more time.

I personally don't believe in religion for some of the reasons mentioned. God says thou must not kill, but he kills the son of every man in egypt or something. He contradicts himself too much. I personally think religion was "set up" by some people back then, playing sadistic games.

Well, I don't know, that's my opinion. I'm very realist. I don't believe in what I don't see evidence of. I see no solid proof any religion is real. I see no gods. I see no miracles anymore. I see co-incidence. I see people trying to fill in gaps in knowledge, with religion.

In no way am I saying you are wrong, I'm just saying that I don't believe in religion myself.

Ditto.

Of course I feel superior. The dude linked to a site that claims the earth is 6000 years old. And he fell for it. Of course I feel like an Ubermensch when reading through posts like his. But whoops, maybe I should have worded it as an OPINION.

I think the flood didn't happen. I think there is no evidence of this flood not because your invisible sky-friend covered it up to trick us; I think there is no evidence of this flood because it didn't happen.

Answers in genesis? HAH. Read a real ****ing book. I think.

I'll do as mh said and get off this topic. I'll maybe start a thread on the The Hymn of Huitzilopochtli and scare away anyone who thinks it's unscientific.

I think your confusing the two meanings of heaven. Heaven is where you go if your saved. The word heaven has also used up until recently to mean sky or skies. Now I've never quite known what firmament meant. It's like a divider or something I think. Do your self a favor. Stay away from Revelations.

I dunno why that was so funny. And everytime you make a post like that Tenshu, I am forced to say:

THEY HAVE FELT THE WRATH OF HEAVEN!!!

You know, because that one game. Anyway, I ain't touching this thread with a 50 ft poll.

Genesis 1:1 is, as far as I know, a summary statement describing the whole process, and then the following verses go into greater detail. It's like saying "I built a computer. On the first day I bought the case, on the second day I put in some components... etc."

As far as translations of the Bible go, I prefer the Amplified version. Gets the full meaning of the Hebrew and Greek. The NIV and/or the NASB are probably your best bet, though.

BibleGateway.com is the website I use for my online Bible needs.

Okay, there were some post about homosexuality in the bible. I'm going to point to my "look at social bias" when examining that. Other than that, I'm not going to get into it in this thread. For one, its not what the thread is really about. Secondly, I'm liable to become...passionate when arguing about such a subject.

Also, about the flood and the ark and stuff. It's a nice story. I think it's just that: A story. I only believe in one Ark, the Autobot Ark. Oneday, Optimus Prime will be awoken from his slumber within the ark, and he and his deciples will come forth to protect us. They will wage their battle to destroy the evil forces of the Decepticons.

Yes.

The ark.

Well, it depends on what you believe. The Bible clearly says that homosexuality is wrong. If you believe that the Bible is God's word, then you'll probably agree with that. If you don't believe in the Bible, then I guess you are free to make up your own mind about what is right and wrong. Personally, I believe in the Bible.



Well, they're free to believe what they want to believe. I suppose that none of us can prove one way or the other until The End. But that's not what the Bible says Hell will be.



Oh, I agree completely. There are many valuable lessons in the OT. I'm not saying it is not important at all, or has no value. What I'm saying is, Jesus's sacrifice freed believers from the old laws, as Paul says in Galatians 5:1-6.



Depends on your faith, doesn't it?



I can't speak for what people that I don't know do.

Again, one shouldn't ignore the OT. But one cannot attain salvation by following its laws. Salvation comes from faith in Jesus, and following his words.

My statement doesn't do anything. What matters is what Jesus said: "There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day." (John 12:48)

Wolfy also had good points on this.



Well, for example, the NIV was translated from the Dead Sea Scrolls, not from the KJV, and probably by people with better understanding of the language. So it's quite likely that the NIV, for one, is a more accurate translation than the KJV. At least, that's my understanding.



I know Spiral, and I don't think that's his intention at all. At least be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.



I'll paraphrase what the notes in my study Bible say about this: Jesus was not speaking against observing all of the requirements of the Law, but against hypocritical Pharisaical legalism, where one would outwardly keep the laws to obtain God's favor, but inwardly break them.

Another point is the phrase, "until everything is accomplished." That could refer to his death and resurrection, at which point he was able to "destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days." (Matthew 26:61) Compare this to when Jesus gave up his spirit, and he said, "It is finished." (John 19:30)

Finally, regarding "unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven," in Romans 3:9-10, Paul said "We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written: 'There is no one righteous, not even one.'" I think what Jesus is saying here is, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven by merely observing the laws. For one thing, no human is capable of perfectly observing them. But more importantly, one must believe in Jesus; as he said in John 14:6, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."



Indeed.

This is a pretty good thread. Not perfect, but pretty good.

I am. It's just that there is a hint of mocking sarcasm in his posts.

I really don't think that's how he meant it, but that's just my opinion.

Well if it says that, then it clearly states that hetrosexual rape is okay. I digress, please don't get me into this topic. I will ask that nobody reply or continue the discussion on homosexuality. For one, nothing you say, quote, or do will ever change my mind or who I am. Second, this is not the thread for this. Third, I'm already going further into this than I want...but I think it's understandable. As an openly gay guy, I will defend this in the proper place and time. I have to stop now, I'm ranting.

(See I can show some self control).

As stated, I do not believe the bible is "God's word", because I am relatively sure that God did not write the bible and God did not translate the bible. Humans did, humans are imperfect and as such everything we do is imperfect. So the bible is therefore not perfect. Claiming that it is perfect would be claiming that humans are perfect, and therefore equal to God. I'm pretty sure God doesn't like that. That's how I feel. Believe what you want, though. I'm all about freedom of thought and belief.

No. God is capable of doing anything, including having the Bible written the way He wants it to be. Just because humans physically put the words on paper doesn't mean those humans are perfect. Only Jesus was perfect.

No he's not.

Well I believe differently. That's my opinion though. I could be wrong, but I doubt it :p

Do you even believe in the existance of God, then? If you don't, please stop saying that he is not capable of things, because it's pointless to say that if you deny his very existance.

If you do believe in the existance of God, why do you believe he is incapable of things? If he created the universe, what could he not be capable of doing?

Could God microwave a burrito so hot that even he himself could not eat it?

That's a silly question, and you know it.

I do know it. I'm just trying to make a point. Not sure what. But I still want my silly question answered. How would God handle such a situation?

Unless anyone can prove or disprove anything in this thread, I think it is worth noting that these are all opinions. I try my best to reflect this in my posts. I don't really like it when I go to such length to make it known I am stating my opinion, and then someone else states there's as a simple fact.

blujay, if god got tired of being god and wanted to be a mortal man, he could do it by your logic. As in, ceasing to be god. So he would just make himself an average joe and the universe would cease to have a god. For all you know, he could have done that 500 years ago if you believe he's all-powerful. So many contradictions...

I know what hinch is getting at -- and the bible is not logical. It wouldn't work at all if it were logical. There are a ridiculous amount of things that rely either on circular logic or ad-hocing whatever it is being presented.

First off, I'm atheist.

Second off, if you read the bible historically and not necessarily for the truth of the matter written, it makes a lot of sense.

What WAR_Nuker said could very well have some truth in it.


And also (Spiral), it's suggested you read the entire bible - including the NT and the gospels, because they'll answer much of your questions. Although most've them have been explained already -- the whole deal with jesus's coming, the old laws, etc.

Historically, it makes sense -- in the OT, the customs and society of the time was that men > women, strict punishment, enforcement, wrath, etc.

Then, if you look at the time of caesar augustus and what was going on there very analytically, you can pretty much derive/make a solid basis on why views were remolded into that preached in the new testament -- though I'm not familiar with such an analysis in the least, so don't call me to expand on that.

If God took human form, he could heat it so much that no human could eat it. Yet, being God, he could, because he can do anything. Just look at what Jesus did. He did things no other human could.



He could, because he can do anything. But I know that he hasn't, because that would be abandoning his children, and he would not do that. As Jesus said in Matthew 28:20, "And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

So he CAN'T do it, then.

This is a little bit of a side-note, but if there's one book that we can be sure has been translated properly, it's the Bible. Even without God's help, there have been thousands of the world's best linguists translating the Bible for thousands of years, and into English for hundreds of years. You're free to believe what you will about its origins, but to say it has been translated innacurately would be stretching things a little too far.



Perhaps I'm a little too close to it to see, but what sorts of things are you talking about, here? It all seems pretty straightforward and logical to me, but maybe we're thinking about different things.

He can, but he won't. If you want to argue that that means that he can't, you're just playing a semantics game. I ask you to please stop, because the only purpose you're serving with such posts and attitudes is to stir up an argument and take the thread off-topic.

There's a difference between being unable to do something, and choosing not to do something.

I could burn down my own house right now, but I choose not to.

I can't shoot lasers out of my eyes, run faster than a speeding bullet, or leap tall buildings in a single bound.

Regardless, that's not what this thread is about. If you want to make a statement about religion, please start your own thread about it, but please don't derail this one any further.

Actually, yes, he could. He could microwave a burrito so hot that even he himself could not eat it and he could also eat it. He created the laws of logic and thus he can transcend them. If he created everything, then he created paradoxes as well and has the power to defy them. Of course, I am using logic to come to this conclusion and that simply complicates things even more. The human mind is too limited to fully comprehend God.

Good post, Wuss.

I have to disagree based on the fact that it has been rewritten so many times. I mean, monks used to copy it by hand, and I still do question the translation and the number of times it has been translated. And translations aren't ever exactly 100%, just because they are different languages. You have have the greatest lingust in the world, you'll never get exactly 100% translation.

you make a good pt. and I'm glad you are reading it. That's why I always say although I'm catholic I dont take the bible word for word or extremely literally because I feel since many of the stories are the word of God, but are passed down through centuries by men, things get miscontrewed (hence it's like playing the game "telephone")

Anywho, I agree with many things, love others , try not to sin too much, etc, basically try and live a good life. But I def. do not take it word for word. I feel it's a gen. good rule to live by, but I would be lying if I said I did everything word for word. We are all onlly human, and god knows that.

I was talking with this man who's a former Catholic priest. He is now former because he wanted to get married and Catholic Priests cannot be married. Anywho, he was talking about the story of adam and eve, and he jokes that with eve, the serpant (aka the devil) was trying to convince her to eat the apple and she discussed it with him for a while, whereas she walked over to adam and told him to eat it and he just did it. (he joked that priests often joke about how that shows some into the logic of men and women). But he also said God didnt want people to eat from that tree because it was the tree where people would begin judging one another. Rather then the tree, where you live life, and treat all fairly (basically just live a good life and none of this, I'm right, and you're wrong stuff).

Anyways that's not word for word, but I even told him, I think the Bible is generally something good to live by, but since there are things like (women are not equal to men, as you pointed out) obviously I dont take that to heart. That's cool you are reading the bible though, and that you are trying to understand it better. cool stuff chris

My point is, the universe might not have a god, but it's possible that it used to.

I haven't read the rest of the thread, but I think a good reason for the question about why they lived so long, is that it was simply a mistranslation, and in reality it was months, or fortnights, or some other measure of time that we don't know about.

I doubt that. It says that God limited man's days to about 120 years. (To avid overpopulation maybe?) I think there was some other reason, but I forget. And if you'll notice, I think the oldest person in recorded history was 121, although there are a good amount of people who have lived to 120. When the world was young, the gene pool would have been allot cleaner. Also, there are some theories about a protective barrier around the earth that block UV light better. On the other hand, God could have just gone in the the Universe's Registry and changed a few registry values. Now if only he would release the source code. I could have allot of fun with that.

roflmao. Um, the ozone layer? Yeah, that's still around, Obi.

I'm not confusing the meanings, I guess I've not posed my question right. What water is above and below heaven (either the sky or the spiritual place)? Of course there's water below the sky, but what water is above it? And how is there any water above OR below the other Heaven?

And why in the world should I stay away from Revelations?

And God could've made you a seal. Just because something CAN be done, doesn't mean it WAS.

Maybe Freelancer IS a seal. A super intellegent ultra-seal.

Yeah, way to assume, Crimson. :p