You seem to be missing the point so let me put it in annoying red letters
THIS IS NOT A THREAD ABOUT OIL PRICES

No, it's a thread about why we needed to drill in ANWR.

Seeing as how the biggest reason was to bolster our economy, I find that point fairly valid.

Oops, I mistook ANWR for something else, I think
Forgive the ignorant Canadian

Why can SAJN call Bush an idiot, but if I call him an idiot (which he most certaintly is) then it is insulting a forum member. How do you know George Bush doesn't surf these forums too? I rest my case.

Bah, Bush should choke because his stupid *** war in Iraq killed 100,000 innocent civilians and over 1000 of our troops.

I'm sort of new to forums, but isn't this thread against proper etiquette?

SAJN, your anger is misdirected. Dont hate Bush.



And the quotes/links posted by Ric about the fact that the Alaskan reserve holds little more than a year's worth of oil.

Oh, and by the way, I doubt if the US will ever see that oil. US companies are going to pack it and ship it for foreign consumption, it's cheaper for us to buy it from the Middle East than to produce it ourselves.

So... the main point of this post is STOP DRIVING SUVs YOU SEAL KILLING ****ERS!

See below:

Haha Schming

I think your thread should be reopened or this one closed. It's either all or nothing for me.

...100,000 innocent people? Where do you get your information?

Theres actually some legal thing where if you are a celebrity it is expected that you will be slandered on occasion and you cannot take legal action if you are. I know that does not actually apply to the massassi forums but I think it makes sense.

Edit heres some sources for the iraq toll:

CNN

Washington Post

BBC

Those are just a few i found on google.

I believe we call Dem the facts. Meaning a general idea of something possibly horrible is either twisted into something horrible or blown largely out of porportion. The motive is to try to appeal to emotions and give something an appearance of fact without having to actually have any knowledge or background on the subject being discussed.

lol prolly farenheit 9/11

Seriously google it. You don't even have to mention Iraq or Bush to find plenty of articles. Just 100000 and civilian is enough to bring them up.

lol you prolly didn't see it lol

He can't figure out how to use the computer.

You can say that bush is a lying crooked b*****d and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but i'm not convinced that he is as stupid as people think he is. Sure, he fumbles words sometimes, but who doesn't?

When you try to manipulate people, you should always try to seem stupider than your mark. It throws people off guard.

Alright, how many of you have actually been to ANWR? Both of my parents were members of the the Alaska YCC (Youth Conservation Corp) for many years when they were in their late teens/early twenties. They worked throughout ANWR for a LONG time (much of their time was spent in the coastal plains regions). According to them, a large portion of the land was barren, having no use whatsoever (read: lack of wildlife), and they both completely support the drilling.

This is exactly the controversy that was raging over the Trans-Alaska pipeline. People were scared to death over the environmental impacts. What happened? NOTHING.

Wow, SAJN. It's pretty sad that you have to resort to making fun of Bush's past mistakes and his "intelligence deficiency" to insult him. OMG HE HAS DIFFICULTY IN PUBLIC SPEAKING!!!111one. Give him a break. So what? Does that make him stupid?

SAJN, if you did cocaine and/or booze, then completely recovered, would that make you a bad person? Would it?

My picture owns yours

I've been to Alaska, right beautiful place.

Aye. That it is.

Really though. My main problem with this is that... it isn't going to help... so why destroy something for a damn near fruitless gain?

I'm sorry I'm so late to this thread because it's a subject I've been talking about in some of my classes for a few years now.

Some of you really need to calm down and not be so freaking reactionary to what has happened. Some of you are screaming about how drilling for oil is going to kill the preserve when the truth is you know nothing about oil drilling methods that are going to be used in this situation. Granted, there is some potential for some problems, but the proposed drilling is likely to be very low impact meaning little disturbance out side of the well itself. I mean, when was the last time you heard about an oil well in the Middle East spewing out tons of oil?

Second, this is just an exploritory stage. Nothing major is going to happen for a few years yet.

Granted, I think we need to be looking for some way to replace oil as the energy source for our vehicles, but I don't imagine many of you are trying to avoid using gasoline or other petrolium based products in your daily lives.

Thing that really sucks about this is you know it's really the only way to get an alternative fuel source. It's more up to the American public now to give a hoot.

IMHO, I think it would be better for us to go to hydrogen. However going to hydrogen would mean for electricity needing to be used. This in turn would be going through another resource that is dwindling- unless we went to nuclear power. However people don't want to do this because they are afraid of a Chernobyl happening, and they're afraid of Nuclear waste. Why? Because they think technology hasn't changed to make things more safe.

When really it has and they're just paranoid and don't know all the facts. People are so used to gas that it's to a point where we see gas as fail-safe.

So what does this leave? More research into hybrids is one of the few things that would be efficient and prosperous. However people have to realize they would have to shell out money for these new cars, but most don't want to or can't. Theres people with things like SUVs and such that don't want to give those up. People have grown accustomed to the Government making them do something, rather than just do it.

I mean if people were to start buying Hybrids in hoards then companies would realize this is the way to go and they would get cheaper and more research would be put into them. But that can't start if people don't buy them, they figure the Government will just phase them in.

So when you really think about all that it seems that drilling for Alaska is possibly the best solution because it means that we can postpone needing to be logical about the situation for a few more decades or so.

But it also means that terrorists in the middle east can't use oil as a foot-in-the-door anymore. They can't hold oil "hostage" by threatening to burn it or anything. This could mean less terrorist attacks as it becomes more and more realized we're not going to depend on that side of the world anymore.

As for Alaska refuge? Yes, indeed it is pretty depressing to think of where they have to drill. But animals can be relocated, technology isn't like it was in the old days. And we have different ideals, we don't just go in and trash things anymore. I'm sure that some sort of limitation for how much area they can take up at a time will be put in place to protect the surrounding area.

Frankly, to really think that this is the end of the world is foolish and to lash out irrationally at Bush over this is ridiculous. Because in the end it's the public's fault, not Bush's. He MAY be in it for the money, he MAY be in it to help the economy. Who knows? Who cares really? Whining about Bush isn't going to help anything.


This is to SAJN personally- I understand you don't like Bush, but maybe if you wouldn't act like a spoiled kid throwing a tantrum everytime he does something you don't like, maybe you and your threads would be taken more seriously.

I think it is insane how many actavist groups are hiding behind the mask of environmentalism. If you are anti-corperation, or anti-big busness, then don't say that you are because of what is happening to the environment. It's bull****. Here's some thing that everyone should do:

Buy or rent this.

Penn & Teller are critical thinking, skeptical, debunkers. Are funded, and aided in research, by the James Randi Educational Foundation and only state fact that is properly supported with evidence. They may have some odd stances with religion, but because you can't prove that there is a "God," them being total skeptics, they don't believe in one, and won't until they get some hard proof. Other than that, it's worth watching. You'll learn about a lot of things most people believe are true, because of money loving ******** who just love to sucker people into giving up their hard earned cash. Don't knock it until you've watched it.

Everything in my house is Energystar compliant, aside from a few of the older television sets we don't have money to replace.

Everyone in my family does their best to conserve fuel, so I don't want to hear that I don't try and do my part to conserve.

If there were an alternative fuel source I could use that ISN'T tax evasion, I'd use it. I'd use a diesel engine with vegitable oil in it right now if it didn't involve SERIOUS reprocussions.

I watched alot of P&TBS and understand that alot of environmentalism is crap.

However, thats not the point. The point is you are drilling in an untouched preserve that has not abundant oil. They're masking this as a cure, when it's only going to feed the disease that is overconsumption and dependence of fossil fuels.

Instead of spending money to drill, we REALLY should be spending money on researching an alternative to fossil fuels.

It's a pointless endeavor that I just can't support.

It would be better, most assuredly, but we can't just "switch over" to hydrogen - we still have lots of technology to develop, and we would have to phase hydrogen in over a period of time...

The only problem with a hydrogen economy is that hydrogen is a carrier of energy, not a source. And, it currently costs more to produce a certain amount of hydrogen (energy-wise) than that amount of hydrogen will provide.

Hybrid vehicles are a good idea, but then the risk of Jevon's paradox happening increases.

Jevon's Paradox:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox

Plus, switching all of our existing vehicles to hybrids isn't going to be easy, or cheap. How many people can afford a $20,000-$30,000 hybrid? Especially those people that still drive older (mid 90s and earlier model) cars? They drive those cars because they can afford them.

Sorry Rob. I was just saying this in retrospect of what SAJN was saying, and was pointing out the fact that: If he thinks that drilling in Alaska is a bad thing, he shouldn't use the President of the United States of America as the lightning rod of all of his personal opinions. He should say, it will cost more to dill that oil, than it will to buy it from the Middle East, or something to that effect.

It's been proven that the area being prepared for drilling is mostly tundra, which according to Meriam-Webster is 'a level or rolling treeless plain that is characteristic of arctic and subarctic regions, consists of black mucky soil with a permanently frozen subsoil, and has a dominant vegetation of mosses, lichens, herbs, and dwarf shrubs; also : a similar region confined to mountainous areas above timberline.' This kind of climate will turn most cold loving creatures from -> in about 1 min.

My opinion, is if it costs less to drill in Alaska then it does to buy oil from the Middle East, then we should save it in case of an emergency, but we should also be working on a more effecient fule vehicle.

I'm an animal lover, but I've got to side with Penn & Teller on this one, animals arn't humans. And to quote P&T...er just P, because T doesn't talk:



If you for one second think that animals are better than humans, then all I have to ask you is this: How many cats have painted a "Mona Lisa"? How many seals have ever created fire without the assistance of man, or using something that was man made? How many dogs take a **** on the sidewalks of America? How many monkies, apes, primates, and crimps can legibly speak any language known to man? The answer is none.

Don't *****. You guys re-elected him.

I didn't. I turned 18 in May, but I didn't get registered to vote until it was too late.

I understand that, and I know it wouldn't be easy to just switch-over. It would require alot of work, some of which is blocked because of the public's stubbornness/fear. Still...if we never get a start, then there will never be a phasing in of it.

Props to the admin who fixed the thread title.

Much more civil than a baseball bat to the face.

Hydrogen powered cars may not all that's cracked up to be. First of all. As mentioned before, getting hydrogen costs more energy than it produces. Second: The byproduct of hydrogen combustion is water vapor. Well that water vapor has to go somewhere. This is something that people neglect. If we switch to hydrogen powered vehicles we'll have LOTS more water vapor in the air. High humidity can hold more heat. So given over time, all that water vapor is going to still bring climatological changes namely everything becoming tropical. This is of course assuming that every car becomes hydrogen powered.

I've been long saying that we need to move away from thermodynamic propulsion or at least bring efficiency standards high. According to the Laws of Thermodynamics, you are never ever going to get a 100% efficent engine. That is all heat/energy is made into work. Right now your car is on average 30% efficient. That means that of all the energy stored in gasoline, 70% of that is wasted to heat. That, even for me, is unacceptable. I was quite displeased when my physics professor told me that fact.

How the hell is using biodiesel tax evasion?

Beyaond what you're doing, there are tons of ways to conserve even more, but in most cases, that means spending a little money, which the American public seems to be against when it comes to conservation. I mean, the public doesn't like solar power plants because the solar farms are an eye sore. Instead, they'll throw up a gas or oil power plant. WTF is that?

It is Tax Evasion to pour vegitable oil in MY diesel engine because I'm not payin fuel tazes on the vegitable oil.

In the same way that it is illegal to pour Kerosene or Home Heating Oil in a deisel engine. Both of which work, BTW.

You pay taxes on your fuel, and when you don't... the government tends to get PRETTY pissed off.



I plan on purchasing Energy Star compliant appliances when I move later on this year (possibly) for my apartment.

I do as much as I can to conserve, however I am not rich and cannot afford a Prius... though I can afford another larger engine for my car... But even then, when I'm not beating the piss out of that car I'll most likely have it tuned for efficiency.

It gets 40 miles to the gallon as is. A bigger engine should be more efficient at pulling that tiny thing around, no?