Woah...people respecting other's opinions...in Massassi? Wow, everyone now knows that being cultured is goood.

------------------
In Tribute to Adam Sliger. Rest in Peace

10/7/85 - 12/9/03

I asked that to a priest once, actually, and he told me that dinosaur fossils were placed there by the devil to test your faith in God.

...

I'm not sure if he was joking or anything.


I'd like to add that Islam doesn't have this problem! Although Allah Almighty didn't really talk about dinosaurs in great detail, he does refer to "dabbah" ('beasts') existing long before mankind.


As for evolution, the Qur'an is sort of a half-way house between Christian creationism and Darwinian theory:

Concerning animals, the Quran says this


which clearly agrees with Darwin in how all lifeforms began in the sea.

As for humans, it's a little bit more wooly

So a human being can live fully functionally without a soul. The Islamic concept of a 'soul' appears to be more like the idea of 'consciousness' than anything else.

So it looks like we need more info regarding souls and spirits. Unfortunately, Allah Almighty says this:



So basically, Allah Almighty is saying 'no comment' to any evolution in humans.


http://www.askislam.com/Concepts/Evolution/Answer_229.html

is quite interesting, but I'm not sure from what in the Quran he is quoting.
He tends to waffle on a bit, and it's a bit confusing, but he refers to scientific phenomena in relation to religion, which is quite unusual.

[This message has been edited by Mort-Hog (edited May 05, 2004).]

Yes.



No, absolutely not. Only man has the concept of measuring periods which we call time.



You see, this is why it's so hard to explain the non-existance of time. The English language doesn't have words to describe what's going on without it having reference to time. But anyhow, what if I told you that as far as the ball is concerned, it started in it's natural state, was either stretched or compreshed (slightly due to accelleration and from which direction. If it was thrown downward it'll be compressed if it was, say, rolled off a table, then it will be stretched), then it's compressed whenever it hits the ground. The elasticity of the ball then determines either how much it bounces back or if it cracks open (if the froce passes the breaking point).



More like, Physical evidence of time = nothing
Physical evidence of [a] God = everything around you.



Indeed, thus why I didn't want to go in to great detail in this thread. But the need to ascknowledge the non-existance of actual time makes it a hell of a lot easier to understand what [a] God always was and always will be.



...according to Modern Physics Theology.

And this is where I'm leaving the topic of Time. If you'd like to discuss it further, I'd be more then happy to do so over e-mail.

------------------
Try not, do; or do not.

Different people's points of view do not determine truth, plain and simple. It simply shows a person's ability to interpret truth.
Then why do so many Muslims follow the actions of Muhammad down to a tee? That's a form of worship.

The Bible was written by people who were there. They know far more about what was going on. I've heard this before, and it does not go into such great detail. Christianity is monotheistic. So instead, we should understand a God that far more supreme to us? FIRSTHAND accounts (the 4 Gospels) show that he said he was the son of God, that a voice from Heaven proclaimed He was the Son of God, and that he performed vast amounts of miracles.
He was sent to live a holy life that he may pay the punishment for sin. Where does such a reconcilation exist in Islam? It doesn't. No sacrifice was made, unless you think God just decided one day to change His mind on the whole subject of sin, thus making any and all of His decisions questionable. It would also indicate that God is imperfect, since He would have need to change His mind. Are these allegations you wish to make against God?
I also await for "the Bible was altered" argument.
What are you talking about?
Dude, it was written in the Bible.
Are you saying that it's impossible to make something different from yourself? ...
What? The "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil." Adam & Eve already knew of God. He told them not to eat from the tree, right? Would you also say that evil does not exist? Simply being unable to show something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Now stand in someone elses shoes: If God performs a miracle, we quickly attribute it to luck, chance, science, etc. So you're saying that people thousands and thousands of years ago invented a being that people to this day still cannot fully comprehend and understand? That's what's called being closed-minded. So in other words, you feel that you're so special that God would favor you over the rest of mankind and show you an undeniable sign of His existance? Even if He did, you would debunk it. Yeah, a big bang occured from some phantom atomic particle that already existed?
No.
And I'm not sure what you mean by the "sun-stand-still thing." "A day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day."
And anyone even relatively familliar with the Bible knows that almost all large numbers are guesses and estimates at best. Since when did Satan develop the ability to create? Well, let's see: Genesis 1:20 - "And God said, 'Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that has life, and the fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven."
Sorry, but you don't have an advantage there. Without even looking, I can tell you that he stretches both religious text and scientific fact. Christian scientists do it, too. I'll go so far as to say that science in religious text is irrelevant. It's simply not the point of religion, whether science is really the meaning of some verses or not.


Now, in regards to time, Friend14, tell me this: How can applying 5 Newtons of force on an object give you different results in regard to distance, if time does not exist? If time does not exist, physics as we know it fails.
Time is a measurement[/i] of distance between events. The distance a clock's hand moves is an EVENT that we have labelled "one second" or "one minute" or "one hour" and so on. A distance between events cannot be physically measured, so we create events (such as moving hands of a clock (or electrical pulses if it's digital)). These events are based on units of time that we have invented.
Time = real.
Measuring time = math.

------------------
Genesis 22:2-5 - And God said unto Abraham "You must kill your son, Isaac." And Abraham said "What? I can't hear you! You'll have to speak into the microphone." And God said "Check, check, check, check. Jerry, can you pull the high end out. I'm getting some hiss up here."
Valuable Life Lesson: Frog + Potato Gun = Blindness

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[This message has been edited by DogSRoOL (edited May 05, 2004).]

One could say the same thing for you. You worship a man as if he was the Most Holy and Blessed one, you do not follow the Noachide laws, yet you consider yourself pious!



It was. But the Talmud dictates rules about what names to use and when.

Oh, wait... you haven't read the Talmud? It all makes sense now. Meshuggeneh goyim!




------------------
Superstition brings bad luck.
-Raymond Smullyan, 5000B.C.

Millions of years ago, there was a dinosaur made of cheese, called the fromagosaurus.

I don't have to prove ****. YOU prove ME wrong dudes. Tenshu wrote it.

I was going to leave it at that flamebait, but here's another thought ('another' meaning I literally have HUNDREDS more).

I think your God sucks. Jesus said (it's in the BIBLE aka the book of science!!): 'only through me you can reach heaven'.

Holy **** dude. Did you just sentence the absolute majority of the world to hell? You do realize most of the world doesn't believe in God just because of chance right? For the same reason you DO believe in God just because of chance...

What? Is God Stalin? Is the world Ukrain in peacetime?? Are you christians little commie elves who hold races to drag the most coals out of the mines????

This leaves me with one last tough task to complete. I hate to do it, but what a man's gotta do...

There is no afterlife. You are going to die. In less than 100 years someone is going to fertilize his lawn with you. In all probability, the flowers that will grow out of you will suck. Even those flowers will die.

Stop looking at the bible, which equals looking around left and right. Look straight ahead and keep focus.

It's DEATH, and it's approaching faster than you can say 'god is not reality'.

And now even YOU are missing the point. I never made the claim that defferent POV determine the truth. I said that because of POV we will never know the absolute truth. There's a HUGE difference.

I'm reminded of a quote from Obi-Wan to Luke about POV...



Yes, I would say that both Good and Evil do not exist. This goes back to POV. There have been MANY debates around moral issues on these very forums to suggest this. What one man sees as Good, another man might see as Evil. Good and Evil are TOTALLY conceptual. However, I beleive your referring to what I'd call Absolute Good and Evil, as deemed by [a] God. Still, without rational thought, Good and Evil would not exist. It ONLY exists in our minds [much (if not all) of which is actually learned from others].

Again, I draw my line in the sand between what is Physical and what is Conceptual.

------------------
Try not, do; or do not.

Oooh. I haven't seen that quote before.
I am often told, though, that God created all creatures as they are today.
Is this just nonsense that the less knowledgeable Christians preach?

"Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that has life, and the fowl that may fly above the earth"

This sort of does suggest two different creatures, fish in the sea and birds in the air... not that the birds actually came from the sea.. Or am I reading it wrong?




Yes, I know what you're talking about. A lot of religious scholars, mostly the violently anti-science ones, tend to have a very limited scope of scientific understanding.

This guy is quite interesting, though, I think he says that he has a degree in biology or something once. He follows the thought that Islam is the study of the word of God, and science is the study of the action of God. He is confusing because his English isn't very good, and he often stards rambling in Arabic and asks the audience for words.
(If you have time, I do ask that you give him a listen. That site covers a lot of interesting topics. He even rambles on about black holes!)

This is also a problem with the Quran in general, in that Arabic is so very different from English; single words have many different and quite elaborate meanings.

Which brings me on to:


I wasn't sure if I should elaborate or not, but now I shall! Note that I use several pictures, and a pretty huge reply.


Unsurprisingly, the word of God is quite metaphorical; I guess if he tried to explain it all literally he would have confused the bejeesus out of Muhammed (saws) and he wouldn't have written it down correctly. But note the Arabic word 'alaqah'. This word can't really be translated properly. I do believe it refers to a particular stage in embryonic development (I think about 15 days old?).

Literally Alaqah has three meanings (all three meanings are still refering to the same stage of development) :
1. Leech


As you can see, a human embryo looks quite like a leech.

2. Suspended thing

This is a diagram of the suspension of the embryo.

This is a photomicrograph of the same thing. The thing marked B is the embryo.

3. Blood clot

Diagram of the cardiovascular system of the embryo during this stage. The exernal apperance of the embryo and its sacs is similar to that of the a blood clot due to the large amount of blood.


The next stage after 'alaqah' is 'mudgah' (28 days old, I think).
The Arabic word 'mudgah' means 'chewed-like substance'. This metaphor is considerably more wooly. I believe that by 'chewed-like substance' it means a substance that has been bitten into, and so has a tooth print in it.

You can see that the chewing gum with the tooth imprint looks quite similar to the embryo.


Now I know that you will refute this, and say that you can come up with plenty of examples of how the development of the embryo is not quite like this, but do remember that Muhammed (saws) was spoken to 1400 years ago.

Even though the metaphors are certainly not quite spot on and somewhat subjective (least not the 'mudgah' interpretation. Please don't show me pictures of your chewed gum that don't look like that ), it is more than a little interesting that he could have been even this close. How could he even guess at it? Why would he even guess at it? It wasn't until 1677 that sperm cells were observed, and they thought that the sperm contained minature human beings that grew larger.

How can the word of Muhammed (saws) be anything but the word of God?

[Edit: blah, another downside of the Quran is that it sure doesn't tell me how UBB img tags work]

[This message has been edited by Mort-Hog (edited May 05, 2004).]

Right. That's so much worse than the old Mosaic law - "keep my commandments to be with me." Nobody could. I fail to see how believing and being a good person is so difficult to do. Do you not believe in God just because you don't like him?
Seriously, think about it - those who believe and follow God are people who WANT to be with him. So why should God force the rest of mankind to be with Him when they express no interest in Him? It's really not hard to understand. Yet people insist on making it more complicated.
Also, your sarcasm is not a good way to get your point across. If you're just trying to make someone mad, you didn't try hard enough. No - all mankind was destined for hell before the sacrifice of Christ. See? Something better comes along, and it's not good enough. It's almost like you'd want God to make your decisions for you. God isn't reality? It's nice to know that matter just suddenly appeared in the universe one day. Show me just one man who was able to keep the law... ALL of it.
I don't know. I'm still waiting for reliable evidence of evolution between species. It doesn't really affect my beliefs one way or the other. If I remember correctly, reptiles evolved from fish, and birds from reptiles.

There's also some possible support for the Big Bang theory in the first few verses of Genesis 1. OK, I'll take a look at it if I can find the time. English seems to lack a *lot* of descriptive words in comparison to other languages. Actually, I'm not going to refute it. (I think I've been to the website where those pictures came from. Someone at the religious debate forum showed it to me.) Anyway, I don't feel that I know enough about prenatal development to argue it. I also don't feel like finding science in religious text is all that important. It seems to miss the point of religion. (Not that I don't find it interesting.) I like all the atronomy things in the book of Job. There's some specific references to star clusters, actually, and the book is several thousand years old. I could show you some of that stuff if you want.[/quote]How can the word of Muhammed (saws) be anything but the word of God?[/quote]I could venture into inquiring about how the works of Jules Verne portrays things that didn't yet exist, as does Leonardo DeVinci. They weren't even writing religious text.

(Also, I'm sorry if I sounded offensive earlier.)

------------------
Genesis 22:2-5 - And God said unto Abraham "You must kill your son, Isaac." And Abraham said "What? I can't hear you! You'll have to speak into the microphone." And God said "Check, check, check, check. Jerry, can you pull the high end out. I'm getting some hiss up here."
Valuable Life Lesson: Frog + Potato Gun = Blindness

Catalog of Electronic Components - Complete IC data sheets
National Electrical Code® (NEC®) Online - Legal requirements for wiring projects.

[This message has been edited by DogSRoOL (edited May 05, 2004).]

...Or perhaps it's a round about (and compressed) way of saying that yes, the 'fowls' too came from the creatures who came from the waters as well. In an attempt to inform people that all life came from those waters...even the birds.

Does that make more sense?

------------------
Try not, do; or do not.

[This message has been edited by Friend14 (edited May 05, 2004).]

What does keeping all of the Law have to do with anything? My Law is not your Law.

Here are the Noachide Laws.

------------------
Superstition brings bad luck.
-Raymond Smullyan, 5000B.C.

Is it not required to keep the law to make it into heaven?
(Aren't there also other laws?)
So is your God also not my God? God created us all.

------------------
Genesis 22:2-5 - And God said unto Abraham "You must kill your son, Isaac." And Abraham said "What? I can't hear you! You'll have to speak into the microphone." And God said "Check, check, check, check. Jerry, can you pull the high end out. I'm getting some hiss up here."
Valuable Life Lesson: Frog + Potato Gun = Blindness

Catalog of Electronic Components - Complete IC data sheets
National Electrical Code® (NEC®) Online - Legal requirements for wiring projects.

[This message has been edited by DogSRoOL (edited May 05, 2004).]

Not for Gentiles.



Of course we all spring from the same source, and we are all equal. I never said otherwise. However, what is expected of the Children of Israel is not expected of the Children of Noah. Gentiles are not any less because they have 7 laws, instead of 613. As Hillel said, "That which is hateful to you, do not to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah, the rest is just commentary."

We're both expected to follow the same tenets (the purpose of the Jews is to deliver ethical monotheism to the nations of the world), it's just that we have a lot more commentary.

------------------
Superstition brings bad luck.
-Raymond Smullyan, 5000B.C.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/quentin_smith/uncaused.html

LOL!

I once read another PHYSICS (as in scientifically rationally verifiable) article about how matter can spawn from nothing.

Now, PLEASE give me the creationist argument, so I can amaze you with my scientist tricks.



What about the guys, as mentioned above, who'll never know wtf God is(+90%) of human population. Hell by default?

What about the guys who lack the cognitive processes (fantasy, etc...) to believe in such a god? Including the guys missing frontal lobes, with genetical disorders, .... Hell by default?

What if someone is genetically predisposed to be a BADBOY? Hell by default?

What about the guys who died up to one minute before Christ died?? They died in SIN... Hell by default? (I probably didn't get your argument about this right though...)

Is god a fascist?

****, I hate this post... it's weak and it's just not Tenshu.... I'll hit submit anyway, and see what happens.

Have fun with it bros.

[This message has been edited by Tenshu (edited May 05, 2004).]

The problem is that the link you provided, is mostly philosophical physics. It's just a bunch of ideas being thrown around. None of it's distinctly varifiable (especially as it's based off other theories that arn't as easily varifiable). Intresting read, none the less.



Take note that I've been using [a] God. That in itself greatly reduces your given percentage (ie, guesstimate).



Their not held accountable...

In fact, a lot of religions have what's called "the age of acounntablitly". This isn't an absolute number and varies from person to person, but it's a general average age that a person becomes accountable.

Quote:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
What if someone is genetically predisposed to be a BADBOY? Hell by default?

</font>[/quote]

Sociological experiments have proven that man is Inhariently Good. Mallace (for example) is a learned behavior.



No one goes to heaven before Christ Returns before Armegaddon. When Christ died, he died for the sins of all of the past, present, and future men and women.



I don't see how, but I'll check out your argument to try and prove it.



Meh, it's late...I should be in bed myself.



I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not having "fun" with this thread. In fact, I think this might be my last replay to it...

------------------
Try not, do; or do not.

[This message has been edited by Friend14 (edited May 05, 2004).]

Hmm!
So
"Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that has life, and the fowl that may fly above the earth"

could read as

"Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that has life, and let the waters bring forth abundantly the fowl that may fly above the earth"

Yeah, that could make sense! I didn't read it that way, but yeah, that'd work.




This is actually an interesting point (more interesting than you thought it'd be, probably!).

Old guy waffles on a bit about it here:
http://www.askislam.com/Concepts/Answer_173.html

Basically, Allah Almighty does accept that some people may come from an evil household or be genetically inclined (somehow) to do evil; if these people do good then it counts as doubly good.

Similarly, some people may come from a loving, caring background or be genetically inclined to do good; if these people do evil, then it counts as doubly evil.

I guess you could say that this suggests that those from an evil household will get away with more evil than those from a good household, but those from an evil household will be expected to do evil and so if they do good it is more of an achievement than if the person from the good household does as they should be doing good without even thinking about it.

Basically, Allah Almighty judges individuals based on their individual case. He accepts that there are many factors in your life that are out of your control (such as your ethnicity, family, class, nationality, genetic makeup, etc) but you do have a certain amount of free will in regards to the day to day decisions you make, when you choose between good and evil.

(Note that I use 'evil' here to mean the Islamic concept of 'evil')

[This message has been edited by Mort-Hog (edited May 06, 2004).]

Then why were you making a big deal about me mentioning God's name? If your law does not apply to me, it shouldn't matter.
Gee, I live in a cave and never heard of the uncaused cause theory. Let me tell you about Christianity. We believe science is the work of the devil, and is evil, along with all technology. None of us dare to enter a science classroom, for we know that we will become followers of the dark one. We believe science is contrary to religion, even though they have so much in common.
[/sarcasm] So sin should just disappear from people because they don't know about God? Christian missionaries go all around the world. The money to pay for these missionaries comes mostly out of our own pockets via offerings. Rarely, there are donations given.
You percentage is way off, too. If 90% of the human population has never heard of God, how can 33% be followers of Christianity?
I doubt it. People with such problems don't have the capacity to willfully sin, either. Unless there are medical problems, thinking patterns develop based on environment, not genetics. Unless I'm mistaken, salvation was retro-active. There was a place called "paradise" that existed within hell where the OT believers were kept. Here's the incident where the theif on the cross next to Jesus believed: "And he said unto Jesus, 'Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.' And Jesus said unto him, 'Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.'" (Luke 23:43) Jesus went to hell for three days to retrieve those believers (and battle with Satan, I think. Maybe I'm wrong.) He then led them to heaven: "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)" (Ephesians 4:8-10). Do you let people into your home when you don't like the things they do? I think not.

On a somewhat related note, hell was not prepared for humans, but for Satan and the fallen angels. "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" (Matthew 25:41). I'm not sure where you get that from. The verse I showed above proves otherwise. It's the dead (presumeably the spiritually dead) who will be delivered up for judgement in those times.

------------------
Genesis 22:2-5 - And God said unto Abraham "You must kill your son, Isaac." And Abraham said "What? I can't hear you! You'll have to speak into the microphone." And God said "Check, check, check, check. Jerry, can you pull the high end out. I'm getting some hiss up here."
Valuable Life Lesson: Frog + Potato Gun = Blindness

Catalog of Electronic Components - Complete IC data sheets
National Electrical Code® (NEC®) Online - Legal requirements for wiring projects.

[This message has been edited by DogSRoOL (edited May 06, 2004).]

I should be shot for participating, but I get a high out of this, so see me dance, biatches...



Ermmm... dude... didn't you say earlier no matter can spawn out of nothing?



Aye man. This sarcasm thingy would've been funny, but in several previous threads, guys on YOUR TEAM denied evolution because it was 'too perfect'.

Silly rabbits.

And actually, I do believe you're not scientifically inclined (which is FINE btw - Bach kicks sciences *** any day) because you accept the most ****ing IMMENSE improbability as fact. This is actually objectively verifiable, as seen in your previous posts.



Not saying that. If you accept the statement that heaven can only be reached through your God(whoops - almost said OUR God), then a big ****ing part of the world is doomed. DOOMED I TELL YAH.



...?



OK, man, nice one and point taken.

But still, about that 33%: technically, I'm a follower of Christianity. Nuff said.

And a huge part of the world will NEVER know who your god and Jesus is. Most guys will even think he's white...



So, heaven by default then?

DAMNIT, I want to be MENTALLY HANDICAPPED!!



Actually, every thinking structure is a result of both nature and nurture. But this doesn't help me bash your Jehovah, so ignore this.

But then again, what if a child grows up in an entirely ****ed up family, kicking his mind into HATE and AGRESSION?



What if they do the things they do because they have no choice? + that's not a very christian thing to say...

I feel like you guys TOTALLY ****ed me over.

Usually, I'm stuck into a pattern of me trying to prove something exists through logic and formula. You helped me break out of that sick, sick pattern, and helped me see the joy in finding arguments against stuff that noone tries to base on empirical, rational, historical evidence...

Thanks guys!

[This message has been edited by Tenshu (edited May 06, 2004).]

http://www.topical-bible-studies.org/29-0002.htm

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

There's actually a more descriptive passage, even saying that the dead shall shed their clothes (part of the changing bit found in this verse).

At any rate, what you mentioned above doesn't change this. Have you ever had sugery where they put you to sleep? It's like blinking your eyes and the next thing you know your in recovery (even though you may of been in surgery for hours). Same type of situation. Again, once you come to the realization that Time is only a concept, it makes perfect sense.

------------------
Try not, do; or do not.

A mere theory isn't going to refute that point either (especially a philosophical theory).



Thus why I have been saying that any God is equally as acceptable. Notice in that chart, only 14% had no religion. This 14% is also made up of Agnostics, Secular Humanists, and Athiests, ect. Most if not all of which have heard of at least one God. So the percentage that hasn't heard of any variation of God is far less. Probably closer to 3-4%.



See above.



See my above post reguarding my reply to you involving the "age of accountablity."



First of all, how do you figure that they have no choice? There's always choices, you may not like them, but their there none the less.

Secondly, DogSRoOL wrote that poorly. He should of said this:

"Do you let people into your home if you know they don't love your...or even down right HATE you, let alone doubt your very existance?"

------------------
Try not, do; or do not.

[This message has been edited by Friend14 (edited May 06, 2004).]

You have to understand, one of the main things that expedited Christianity's separation from Judaism -it was previously a sect called "the Way," and was known as such for a while after- was the council of Jerusalem. One of the things this council determined was that a Gentile could become a Christian without first becoming a Jew. This meant that the laws specifically for the Jews -circumcision, not eating shell fish, etc.- did not apply to the gentiles, as they never entered that covenant. (The apostles and Jewish converts to Christianity already were Jews, and as such still had to follow the laws they submitted to.)

There is the Ten Commandments, and the laws of Jesus. He did not erase one letter of the old Law, but brought it to a higher level.

I won't spell it out of respect, but I just thought I'd clarify.

------------------
Steal my dreams and sell them back to me.....

Going back to this, it would be impossible. To keep all of the Law, you'd have to be priest, Levite, king, man, woman, farmer, and countless other things at once.


------------------
Superstition brings bad luck.
-Raymond Smullyan, 5000B.C.

Would be funny if God had a black sense of humour and when you died, sent the christians to hell and the atheists/heretics to heaven.

I never said I believed the theory. It contradicts law of conservation of matter and energy. Oh, right. My mistake. We're all brainwashed, so we think alike. All right. Let's say that God is actually not a god, but a being from another dimension. Each dimension has one extra trait from the last. 1st dimension has only points, 2nd dimension has flat, one-sided shapes, 3rd dimension has 2-sided shapes with depth, and after that point one can only guess. Note how the each dimension overcomes a property of the last. The 3rd dimension overcomes the one-sided property of the 2nd dimension. Supposedly, the 4th dimension is time. So if a being exists in a higher dimension, perhaps time does not apply to it. Or perhaps there is a property similar to time that behaves in a different manner. To us, in the 3rd dimension, the actions of a being in a higher dimension would seem miraculous. Yet to the being performing them, the actions are simply the way that being exists. They are nothing special to him.
Now what if the term "god" is just a label we've applied to a being who exists in this higher dimension?
(Mathmatically, there've been proven to exist up to 9 dimensions (or maybe higher). But this is only mathmatically. We could probably never know for certain.) God's not going to let sin into the place he lives. Period. If you don't accept salvation, you can't be cleansed. It's like trying to take a bath without soap or water. 33% is roughly 2 billion people. There's probably a small percentage that lied, not likely enough to upset the results. That, and when people lie about what they believe, they're actually taking numbers away from their own beliefs. It wouldn't serve much purpose, unless they were apathetic. Again, the missionary thing. In my small town, with my particular church, we've sent missionaries (actually, the missionaries choose to go) to several different countries. That's only one of thousands of churches. And most churches have several missionaries. I don't know. I'm not God. That's not an excuse for anyone to get away with crime, now is it? When was the last time a court excused a crime because of a person's upbringing?
Why should God. We're responsible for our own actions. We do have a choice. *ahem*
"Oh look, prostitution on my street corner. A dude just picked up a hooker, and they want to do it in my house. I guess I'll just let them bang on my living-room floor."
...
"Some guy just murdered someone, and he wants to hide the body in basement."
No. Incorruptible = unable to be corrupted. Note the present tense "to be". The verse then says they cannot be corrupted further. It doesn't say they won't be judged. It doesn't say their past sins are removed. If time is only a concept, how is time different for God? 2 Peter 3:8 - "But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."
And further, how can you measure a concept?
If time were only conceptual, all events must happen in the same instant. Thus, I could easily keep myself from harm, because I'd already know what was to happen.

So again I ask: How can applying a force of 5N to a small box give different results, if time does not truly exist? ...or a god.

------------------
Genesis 22:2-5 - And God said unto Abraham "You must kill your son, Isaac." And Abraham said "What? I can't hear you! You'll have to speak into the microphone." And God said "Check, check, check, check. Jerry, can you pull the high end out. I'm getting some hiss up here."
Valuable Life Lesson: Frog + Potato Gun = Blindness

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[This message has been edited by DogSRoOL (edited May 06, 2004).]

So what? I don't exactly rule at physics, but at a quantumphysical level, physics don't mean crap. Screw Newton. Screw 'law of conservation of matter and energy'. Your frame is too small.




DEFINITELY using this quote in further debates on evolution.



What if the fromagosaurus® lives in the 7th dimension?




This is not about lying, this is about guys (like ME!!) being baptized and being signed up as christian.

Sticking feathers up your *** doesn't make you a chicken, right?

Again, the missionary thing. In my small town, with my particular church, we've sent missionaries (actually, the missionaries choose to go) to several different countries. That's only one of thousands of churches. And most churches have several missionaries.[/quote]

So, the fact if someone goes to hell is based on some foreign guy's charisma?

Sounds harsh man...



No, dude, you exist (I think - there's no being sure)

That's not an excuse for anyone to get away with crime, now is it? When was the last time a court excused a crime because of a person's upbringing?
Why should God. We're responsible for our own actions.[/quote]

No we're not. We're animals. In real life, mothers steal bread from their 5-year old children to increase their still very unlikely chances of survival (~holocaust). In real life, you as well as I would've sacrificed humans. In real life, we would've given high voltage shocks to guys we don't know.

We do NOT have freedom of actions, and that's exactly why human species have survived that long, so in a way, I'm kinda thankful for it.

Off to class for me. Have a big test on history coming up, and I'll need the support. Even from the guys who despise me right now on this thread.

No harsh feelings guys? Just good grades.....

Um, the discussion wasn't about past sins, it was about the fact that the dead do not rise to heaven until Armeggedon.



Um, notice that that line is actually a paradox. The idea of which, is that Time doesn't apply to [a] God.



How do you measure any quantity? Or are you are going to next try to say that numbers arn't conceptual either?



How did you come to this conclusion? Everything happends in a series of events. We have conditioned ourselves to learn "conceptually" to keep track (and therefor measure it) with a quantitative measurement we call Time. The point of all of this is that there is no "Universal Clock" that we and everything else are somehow magically connected to (and thus cannot be manipulated).



First of all, what you don't seem to be getting, is that Time has nothing to do with the "Force" or the Box.

Secondly, I'm a bit confussed of how applying a force of 5N to a small box can give different results. Would you mind clarifying? If the conditions are exactly the same, then the same results will occur.

Here's a question for you, and I want you to think very carefully about it before you answer:
All people "appear" (are "observed") to age at different rates. Therefore, following your line of reasoning, does this mean that Time moves at different rates for each person?

OR

Is it more sensible that people simply grow, mature, and begin deteriating at different rates because of either genetics or biological history (accidents, ect.) or a combination of both?

The females on both sides of my family, for example, "appear" to age much slower the the males side. In fact, on my mothers side, they typically don't get their first grey hair until their in their 80's! What better explination for this then simple biology? [sarcasim]Oh, I know, let's just chalk it up to Time. That seems to be the trend since the beginning of the 20th century. What we can't explain, we'll simply state that Time is the cause.[/sarcasim]

Now seriously, DogSRoOL. If we're all somehow connected to a "Universal Clock", why or how could it possibly very for no apparent reason from person to person? Doesn't a natural process of A leads to B leads to C make a lot more sense?

I'll try another way to explain "conceptual time." Whenever you have an object changing it's universal xyz position, you have an event. As the object moves from point A to point B, it is constantly changing it's universal xyz coordinate position (on an infentisimal level). Thus, as it moves from Point A to Point B, you have a 'Series' of a Events occuring at Intervals. WE measure these intervals as Time. All it is, is a missing varible that allows us to skip having to analyze every single series of events so that we can simply take what happend at Point A and Point B and use are missing varible called Time to include all of those little intervals that would take forever to anaylize.

To try and relate this for you, have you ever tried to Calculate conservation of Energy in a system using Newtons Laws? Ugh, they take FOREVER! Then you learn that by simply observing that the amount of Energy at the beginning of the system is the same as the amount of Energy at the end of the system (E=E), you can simply take (*) E(sub Final) = E(sup initial). You see, with this, we don't have to worry about all the stuff that happends in between the time that our system started into motion and the time it reached it's peak. Same goes for using Time to measure 'series' of events. It keeps us from having to look at all the little bitty stuff that goes on between Point A and Point B.

Hope that helped clarify. Again, it's difficult to explain the non-existance of time without a time referrence....damn English Language.

(**)

[(*) NOTE: That was in the absence of friction. If friction is involved then you have E(sub final) = E(sub initial) - the work of the conservitive (frictional) force.]

[(**) It's late, probably a lot of grammarical errors, please go easy on me. ]

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Try not, do; or do not.

Well Tenshu, I think “despise” is too strong a term, but here are a few tips that would likely make me take you a lot more seriously:

Just drop the attitude, man. I completely respect your beliefs; it is your business whether or not you choose to believe in a higher power. I think it’s fine to agree to disagree and it’s fine to debate points about theology. But stop swaggering around acting like your superiorly enlightened or something. You have a worse “holier-than-thou” attitude about your beliefs than a lot of crazed Christian fundamentalists that I’ve met. Be civil and I think you’d make your points more poignant.

*shrugs* I’m not trying to play mini-mod or anything, it’s just something I noticed while reading over the thread.

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"I am downright amazed at what I can destroy with just a hammer."
-Atom and His Package

Yes, I feel most left out as everyone's responding to Tenshu's and Friend14's posts, but not mine. :-(

So when time doesn't exist, physics are different.
Isn't that exactly what I've been saying about the existance of God?! Then good for him. Signed up? Was there some form I was supposed to fill out when I became a christian?
Oh crap! I'm going to hell if I don't get my hands on that form!!

But seriously - the purpose of missionaries is to inform other cultures of God and/or Jesus, not to shove religion down their throat. Do you always try to look at things in the most negative way possible? How about "the fact that someone is informed about how to keep himself from hell and find a loving God is based on people's compassion for ensuring that the message gets to them." No, I don't exist. There's no proof that I exist. Prove that I exist. You can't. We don't? Is it some kind of instinctual reflex that you post here? First, good luck. Second, just because people disagree with you doesn't mean that they hate you. Right... does this mean the physically dead, or the spiritually dead (a.k.a. those in hell)? Don't forget, there's a second death after this time.
My point was that if these are the spiritually dead, they are raised in a way that they cannot further sin. Depends what you mean. Numbers represent quantities. A number by itself does not exist. Because of that, numbers are conceptual. You can't show me "one". You can show the word or number that represents such a quantity, though. Exactly. A series' of events are exactly what time is a measurement of. Just like I said earlier, one "tick" of a clock hand (an event) is labeled as "one second." That event is what time is based on, and has been regulated with more modern electronics, like quartz crystal oscillators.
Try working with large 3-phase generators, and ignore the factor of timing. At least one of the generators will explode. No question about it. Time isn't real? Really? Apply 5N to the box for 1 second, then for 5. Different distances are achieved based on time[/b]. But wait... time is only conceptual: Now if this is true, derive for me a formula that can explain the phenomenon above without depending on a time variable. No. It merely indicates that people are exposed to different environments and/or have different genetic makeup. Think about this: Distances exist, right? Yet we have different types of units to measure those distances. Is there a universal unit? No. Is there some reason that I should expect to find a universal unit for the measurement of time? Of course not. So what's the formula for this variable? You indicate that it's derived. I want to see some mathematical proof.
In fact, I think it would be interesting to see lots of basic physics formulas rewritten to exclude time. If it's only conceptual, it should be easy.

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Genesis 22:2-5 - And God said unto Abraham "You must kill your son, Isaac." And Abraham said "What? I can't hear you! You'll have to speak into the microphone." And God said "Check, check, check, check. Jerry, can you pull the high end out. I'm getting some hiss up here."
Valuable Life Lesson: Frog + Potato Gun = Blindness

Catalog of Electronic Components - Complete IC data sheets
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I've responded to you.



Wow, and now your WAY off base. When you die, your spirit doesn't go anywhere. It simply 'rests' as it were. Go back to my surgery example to understand this.



Now your taking the passage out of context. Everyone is 'raised' from their slumber and goes to Heaven to where they are then judged and either aloud in or sent to Hell. The ONLY person who has ever died and gone straight to Heaven was Jesus. Even Adam and Eve are in their 'slumber' waiting for Judgement Day.



Same with Time.



It's still a measurement by numbers, which we've already agreed are conceptual.



Again, where is this magical thing that somehow links us all to Time? There's a difference between understanding that Time is conceptual and ignoring it. In that statement you were basically asking me to ignore the conceptual existance of numbers.



You see, that's the problem with Schools/Universities today. They rely to heavily on the Math (which we've agreed is conceptual) to explain event rather then understanding the underlying logic of why things happend. And, as I've said all along, Time is the missing varible, just like length and mass. You can't show me length, but you can show me a nice lined-up series of molecules/atoms/particles that makes up a ruler. You can't show me mass, but you can show me that something has a mass (by putting it on a scale....which is actually mg but we can derive simply m from that). Same with time. You can't show me time, but you can show me that events happend over a period. It's simply a tool we use. A very good one, but a tool none the less.

Reguardless, a force being applied constantly over a period t hardly proves the existance of time. ESPECIALLY since your example begs many questions. Assuming there is no friction (in other words, using a Newtonian Surface), then if the Force is applied constantly (meaning with constant velocity), then the box would still achieve the same velocity rather it was applied for 1 sec or 5 secs. When it all comes down to it, whatever is creating the 'Force" is establishing a constant velocity for the box to follow reguardless if the thing acting as the 'Force' continues with the box or some outside force stops it (where 'it' is the thing acting as the Force...just for clarity).

Perhaps you should think of another example...



Good, then you agree that we are not somehow magically attached to time and that's a natural biological process based on genics on a person by person basis.



<shakes head> So I guess we're playing the "Two steps forward, one stop back" game now?

Despite the units, distances are Constant, are they not? Does not 1 in = 2.54 cm? Does not 1 lb = 0.454 kg?

Likewise, is not Time considered to be constant? Thus if it's constant, then it would be Universal (apply to everything in the universe) would it not?

BTW, FYI, the second is the standardized universal unit for Time.



First, there's no more a fomula for Time then there is for Length or Mass. So there is no Derivation. And following your line of reasoning we'd have to rewrite them to exclude Length, Mass, and hell, numbers altogther. I mean, after all, since numbers are only conceptual anyways.

So, again, take your focus off of simply being able to plug numbers in to formulas and trying to explain the universe. YOU CAN'T DO IT! Numbers are tools (like Time, Length, Mass, and all those derived from those three (ie, Volume, Density, Rates ect) that help us 'visualize' (which is also conceptual ). All our life we've worked with numbers, so it's intuitive. But they are NOT the end all be all explination for everything. If you don't understand the concept, the numbers don't mean anything anyhow.

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Try not, do; or do not.

[This message has been edited by Friend14 (edited May 07, 2004).]

You know, its really neat how you can compare that system to fascism. Weren't Germans and Italians living under there respective dictators told they were 'supreme' due to who they were? (in the case of this religious discussion, I can assume we can compare these people to Christians) Wasn't the idealogy behind fascism to serve one's nation above all else, regardless of individual gain? Can we not compare this system of Hitler to... say, I don't know, God? The very system that you describe?

Isn't it also interesting how we I can equate Hitler, who is one of the few men to ever live who we can say was truely, unquestionably evil, to your Lord?

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To myself I surrender to the one I'll never please.
But I still try to run on.
You know I still try to run on. But it's all or none.

Eddie Vedder

This is a parable, so I don't know if you'll even consider it.
Luke 16:19-26 - 19 "There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz'arus, full of sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz'arus in his bosom.
Or this one, that Jesus said to the thief on the cross:
Luke 23:43 - And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, TODAY you will be with me in Paradise."[/quote]Doesn't sound like he's simply going to be at rest to me. Ironic.
1 Cor. 15:51 (right above the verse you cited): Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,.
Actually, he went to hell for three days. If you recall, after his resurrection, He said not to touch Him, for He had not yet ascended. (John 20:17)

I never said they weren't. I said there's no universal unit to measure it with. Time, much like motion, is relative. 1 minute here on earth may be equivalent to years, or maybe microseconds at the outer edges of the universe - at least from our viewpoint. If you were actually in that time zone, the opposite would be true. If 1 minute on earth = 1 year in some outer zone (based on earth viewpoint), then 1 year in that zone would be 1 minute on earth (based on the viewpoint from the outer zone).
Much like a passing car. You see it passing you at 55 mi/hr, and the person in the car sees you passing them at -55 mi/hr (55 in the opposite direction).
The difference is that we can't have negative time, plus most time is in a denominator. So I based my above hypothesis on t1/t2, so they're inversely proportional.

In any case, our inability to create an absolute time unit does not prove its nonexistance, but simply shows our limitations on being able to study it.
So you'd say that if there's extra-terrestrial life, they'd be using the same units of measure? Not likely.

In any case, I find at least 2 things faulty with viewing time as a concept:
1.) You can't measure a concept using a concept (numbers to measure time). It's circular, and doesn't work.
2.) We can't derive physics equations that don't depend on time.
Or in other words, we can't use math to prove reality (if time is conceptual).


I don't know how much sense that makes right now. I'm tired, so it's probably not well put together.

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Genesis 22:2-5 - And God said unto Abraham "You must kill your son, Isaac." And Abraham said "What? I can't hear you! You'll have to speak into the microphone." And God said "Check, check, check, check. Jerry, can you pull the high end out. I'm getting some hiss up here."
Valuable Life Lesson: Frog + Potato Gun = Blindness

Catalog of Electronic Components - Complete IC data sheets
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Exactly. Prove to me that the men listening to Jesus heard the right thing. Considering that they were men, considering that men are fallible and that men's point of view are different; prove to me that they heard what they wrote that they heard. How did they know it was Jesus they were talking to? The guy said he was Jesus, he performed some miracles, but you cannot prove to me that they learned what they were supposed to learn from Jesus. They're eyes could have fooled them, they could have had bad hearing. I want to see you prove to me that what they wrote down actually existed.

It strikes me as extremely arrogant when poeple claim to know what God had in mind for them. It isExtremely arrogant to say that God gave us the atomic bomb instead of the Commies because we were chosen. You cannot know what God intends for mankind. You've already said He's beyond our comprehension, so how do we know what He intends for us. It's a two-way street. You can't claim that we cannot understand God in His infinite glory and then go right ahead and say that you believe in God and that you are going to Heaven because He said so.

My two bits worth.

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Daddy, why doesn't this magnet pick up this floppy disk?

I know Brian had warned us about not commenting on people's grammar, but really, do we have to lower ourselves that much? There is a lower limit and an upper limit, folks, and I propose that when an error, or more than one error, is made in every instance it is possible, this fact is pointed out to the person making the error multiple times, and it still happens...well, there's a problem. And I swear I must have OCD or something because it makes me want to scratch my brain out trying to read it.

Also, on the actual topic of the thread again,


This is why for the time being I find it easiest to view time as another dimension. It fits, for now, anyway. Studying Calculus kinda made it a lot more clear, too.

Just now I tried to picture and fully comprehend how movement within 3D space and within time would relate to each other if they were jsut dimensions, but I unfortunately made the retarded mistake of picturing it in 3 dimensions. Never EVER do that. My brain was already too damaged from the grammar and it's running down the back of my throat right now.

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WOOSH|-----@%

None of that discredits anything that I said, again, I point you to my 'Surgery Example." And again, I point out that once you realize that Time is only a concept, it makes perfect sense.



Again, it doesn't discredit what I said as it's referring to two different things.

Other passages say that we shed our clothes in place of where this one says 'change'.



Yet again, doesn't discredit what I said.



Now your trying to confuse the issue. As a reminder, we were talking about the constantality of 'conceptual' time. Units to measure it with are irrelevant to that discussion.



Now your talking about what I like to call 'Subjective Time' (aka Relativity).

There's actually a much better explination, for the "observed" differences. But I won't go into it here.



Acutally, you can have negative time...at according to Classical Physics. It's actually used quiet a bit for a variety of mathematical reasons.

Again, I can explain those same examples in a much different way, but not here.



There IS an absolute time unit. It's called the Second. But again, it's a measurement of a concept.



No, but it would be comparible as their units would be in equal intervals and thus we could form a conversion equation...much like we already do to get from In to Cm



1.) Why not? We use equations derived from other equations that were created by numbers representing something, all the time. Are you saying that these equations are useless?

Maybe another example. We can create Pencil and we can create Paper, correct? Like concepts, these two things are created by the use of our minds (and actually, both Pencils and Paper started as concepts, as far as their design ). Are you saying that it's impossible for us to then translate our thoughts onto these two concepts (both the pencil and paper)? And even then, is not written language a concept in itself?

2.) We can NEVER use physics and/or math to prove reality. That's not the the point of either. The point of either is to help us visualize reality in a way that can be easily communitcated to others.



Thus why I recommend we discuss this 'tangent' through e-mail, if not for any other reason then the fact that it's counter-productive to what both of us wish to accomplish with this thread, which is to prove the existance of God.

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Try not, do; or do not.

[This message has been edited by Friend14 (edited May 08, 2004).]

Yes there is.

That's sort of the whole point of Système International d'Unités; SI units.

The fundemental SI units are the metre, kilogram, second, ampere, kelvin, candela, and the mole. The other SI units are derived from those.

The vast majority of the world use SI units for everything (save perhaps for temperature, as numbers are smaller when in Celsius), so that seems pretty 'universal' to me. Yes, imperial units exist but they are in the minority, and should be dying out anyway.

Though there is proof that Santa Claus existed- but not the fat jolly man with a sleigh, northpole, and reindeer.



Archeologists have found temples and sacrifices from long ago..



Ok I meant some people substitute other things for God, not all do, but some.



As for bigfoot, if you knew he wasn't a man in a suit, sure. If the Loch Ness monster doesn't look or seem unreal in anyway, sure. I don't see how Hitler's teachings could change your life but anyways, if hitler's writings changed your life, because he was an evil man, your life would change in an evil way, so it would mean that it's wrong.

What?

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Superstition brings bad luck.
-Raymond Smullyan, 5000B.C.

So... Jesus was lying? He knew they would both die on the same day. If I use events to describe the term "day", it meant (in those days) the period of daylight from sunrise to sunset. If the thief's spirit merely rested, that would not be one day by any definition of the word. Try this, then:
Revelation 20:11-15

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.[/quote]
Hard to give the dead in hell if their spirit is only at rest. Right. You said Jesus went strait to heaven, yet I cited a verse that clearly indicates that he did not. How is it irrelevant? Because we lack a constant unit, time is only conceptual? That seems to me to be the basis of your argument. Yes, we can use negative time for mathematical reasons, but you can't have negative time in the real world. If time is a concept, why can't it be negative outside of math? Once again, just because it's a unit that humans use doesn't mean it's universal. Which still doesn't mean it's universal. Written language is a way to symbolize sounds (almost always words). I don't know if that would be considered conceptual or not. Wha...? Then electronics is a farce! The entire thing (like other types of engineering) revolves around both physics and math. At this point in time, we lack the technology to prove or disprove God's existance, if such technology could ever even be created. But that's only "universal" as far as humans are concerned. I was referring to the concept of Christianity. You know... how God as Jesus fulfilled the law so that his death could be used to pay the price for sins of man. I'm sure you've heard this before, though.

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Genesis 22:2-5 - And God said unto Abraham "You must kill your son, Isaac." And Abraham said "What? I can't hear you! You'll have to speak into the microphone." And God said "Check, check, check, check. Jerry, can you pull the high end out. I'm getting some hiss up here."
Valuable Life Lesson: Frog + Potato Gun = Blindness

Catalog of Electronic Components - Complete IC data sheets
National Electrical Code® (NEC®) Online - Legal requirements for wiring projects.

eh.



That's all created by humans too.


This thread is making less and less sense as it goes on. I liked it much better when it was actually a religious debate.

Bring back the forum!

[This message has been edited by Mort-Hog (edited May 09, 2004).]