I'm speaking on a hypothetical. If life on other planets exists, it's highly unlikely that their units are the same as ours, and thus it would mean the units are actually not universal. Either way, the term "universal" gets used incorrectly a lot. Either that, our it's a misnomer. Nah. www.Religious-Debate.com has far more civilized discussions than Massassi's religious forum could have ever hoped to have. I've never seen a single flame at religious-debate.com. At all. Ever.

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Genesis 22:2-5 - And God said unto Abraham "You must kill your son, Isaac." And Abraham said "What? I can't hear you! You'll have to speak into the microphone." And God said "Check, check, check, check. Jerry, can you pull the high end out. I'm getting some hiss up here."
Valuable Life Lesson: Frog + Potato Gun = Blindness

Catalog of Electronic Components - Complete IC data sheets
National Electrical Code® (NEC®) Online - Legal requirements for wiring projects.

Agreed. The funny thing is is that I even gave DogSRoOL a way out...

But since he has chosen to persist...



No, he wasn't lying. Again you have failed to grasp my surgery example. If you go in for a 4 hour surgery, for you it ends up being about a 5 min surgery (the time it takes them to prepare and gas you). It has to do with the 'concious awareness' of "Time." As far as other was concerned, he was about to blink his eyes (as he lost conciousness) and the next thing he would know, is that less then a second has passed and the day of Judgement has arrived.



Ignoring for a moment that the entire book of Revelations was a 'vision' of the future. And also ignoring the fact that many many many people spend their entire lives trying to understand the book of Revelations, I'll respond anyway.

I found the sentence you bolded especially intresting. Tell me, how can 'death' give up the dead? And also, in the next line, it says that both 'death' and 'Hades' were thrown into thelake of fire. Lastly, notice that it says "the dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books." Judgement Day is AFTER our 'conception' of Time. Furthermore, how can they be sent to Hell before they are Judged?

Thus why Revelations is a poor place to quote from. I could go on all day about what the 'imagery' alone could potentially mean. Remember the Bible was written by men during a time when the knowledge of Science (as we know it now) was pratically non-existant.



It didn't discredits my point which is that Jesus was the only one that has ever died and immidiately gone anywhere. Everyone else 'is' or 'will be' resting until armegaddon/judgement day.



It's irrelevant because our concept of 'units' has nothing to do with regular intervals in which we measure it....which is consistant reguardless of what unit system you use (Earth or Alien).



We can't have negative numbers as a whole in the real world either. Time CAN be negative if you want it to be. It's called 'Sign Convention.' We have all simply agreed to make it positive. But we do often use negative 'Time' outside of normal use. We count DOWN the seconds to the 'new year.



But, again, the interval of events in which it measures would be the same. Remember, we use Units to measure A and B points of the series of Events so that we don't have to look at everylittle aspect of it. These two points are arbitary. The only requirement is that the interval between A and B has to be the same between B and C and so forth.



YES it DOES. You can't convert between unit systems that are not universal.

Example:
A 12in Ruler is 30.48cm. The Ruler has NOT changed in length, only the arbitary unit system we use to measure it with.



Anything that doesn't 'Physically Exist' is conceptual. Which I think is one of the problems. The definition of Existance has been stretched to include things that are conceptual. Thus why it's important to distinguish a line between "physical existance" (things that truely exist in the universe) and "conceptual existance" (things that only exist as thoughts, ideas, or concepts in our mind, hell, even your knowledge/understanding/awareness of things that physically exist is conceptual).



But the materials it's made of and the electro-magnetic fields that drive it are all physical. Again, math and physics are tools we use to visuralize specific intricate details and apply them in the real world (which is made possible ONLY because math and physcis are constants built on constants. They are perfect in that sense. Now tell me, how can anything that "Exists" be perferct? It simply can't unless it's conceptualy derived to be constant out of necessity. You see, we need Time to be constant, just as we need units of Length or Mass to be constant. Else, the math would never work.)



Perhaps I should of used 'Defend' instead of 'Prove'. But none the less, there is ample evidence to Prove the existance of [a] God (whatever name you wish to give Him), we but only have to look past the obvious. And until you realize that Time is only a concept, your going to continue to make it harder and harder on yourself when you enter a thread of this topic and attempt to deffend what's written in the Bible. And THAT is the key point I've been trying to get across to you.



The UNITS are only "universal" as far as Humans are concerned, but of what they measure is "Universal" period. Call the length of a 12in ruler whatever you want. No matter how small you break down the units, the ruler will still occupy the same amount of 'space' in the universe.

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Try not, do; or do not.

So? Just because I'd perceive it that way doesn't mean that's how it actually would be. Notice also that it says those in hell will be judged according to what they've done. In other words, they're judged by their sins, because they never accepted salvation and never had their sins washed away. Remember "saved by faith"? (Romans 10:9) By faith, you make it into heaven. Without it, you go to hell. Judgement comes later. (Except "later" is a reference to time. ) Certainly you can. A negative bank account means you owe money, negative velocity means you're going in a opposite direction (-30mph N is 30mph S). Which ironically includes God. He's not a physical entity since He's a spirit, so by your definition, He doesn't exist. And all that is useless by itself.

Let me ask: If nothing changed, would time pass?
The question is almost irrelevant. Everything does change.
If the components that make up time exist, why doesn't time exist, too?

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Genesis 22:2-5 - And God said unto Abraham "You must kill your son, Isaac." And Abraham said "What? I can't hear you! You'll have to speak into the microphone." And God said "Check, check, check, check. Jerry, can you pull the high end out. I'm getting some hiss up here."
"I'm not quiet: I just like to quote mute people."
^ My life story
Valuable Life Lesson: Frog + Potato Gun = Blindness
Catalog of Electronic Components - Complete IC data sheets
National Electrical Code® (NEC®) Online - Legal requirements for wiring projects.

I don't want to get into it, but in Judaism, that's idolatry.

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Superstition brings bad luck.
-Raymond Smullyan, 5000B.C.

For YOU it is. And THAT is the point.



First off, I found that quote in another text and both Death and Hades have their first letters capitolized, meaning they're proper names. I'm guessing two of the other angels who defected with Lucifer. But I can't be sure until I do some more research...

Incidentally, I just found a website that backs me up:
http://www.keyway.ca/htm2000/20000423.htm


Would you like to rethink your position now?



Apparently you didn't read my next sentence as I basically said just that. As a reminder, it's called 'Sign Convention.'
Even in your own example, though, you prove my point. A negative bank account means you owe money. Don't you think the bank wants this money that you owe to be a positive number? You want 3 apples but there are only 2 in front of you. You don't have negative 1 apples, you need 1 more apple. You see? Sign Convention.



No it doesn't, you have TOATLLY missed the boat. God exists on a higher level. Just because we can't see Him, it doesn't mean He doesn't exist. That's like saying Electro-Magnetic fields don't exist because we can't see them.



So are you saying the numbers and formulas of physics is what makes it work? Give me a break. It WORKS because of the mechanical process. You flip a switch and it allow current to flow through the device to provide power. In the case of a Speaker, it causes and electrical signal to be sent to an amplifier which then causes the diaphragm to move, creating physical vibrations in the air which are ear receives and sends to our brain for us to interpret at sound.

A nice little article about sound and how speakers work: http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/speaker1.htm

Please take note that Numbers are no where to be found. [Even in computers, binary is our visuralized numeric translation of either a current being sent (1) or no current being sent (0).



I have 4 apples, does that mean numbers exist?

Again, there's Physical existance and then there's Conceptual existance. One truly exists in the universe, the other only exists in our minds. Can you tell the difference yet?

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Try not, do; or do not.

[This message has been edited by Friend14 (edited May 10, 2004).]

Congrats, very well written, a good short essay on my behalf and a good start to another religion thread.

But this is my final plea. I do not, I repeat, I do NOT exist.

In an attempt to explain



Yes it is inconceivable that these “l00 billion” pieces would magically fit together without the help of intelligent design. But the catalyst you are leaving out is time. DNA did not suddenly appear as Adam and Eve did.

Do you know how many failed evolutions and mutations life had to go through to get to the point it is how? And there’s no reason behind it. If you shake that jigsaw puzzle of 100 billion pieces for 10 billion years then you’ll begin to see some patterns. And what is the chance that after all this time there will be a world that has evolved exactly the same that we have, inconceivably inconceivable.

Rather, ask if it is reasonable to guess that after all this time, there will be some world with some perceived organization and the truth will become painfully clear: there is no reason for it, but it does exist, and to claim that the only possible organization of the human blueprints is that of a jigsaw puzzle we see in-front of us is foolhardy.

But back to me, why am I so prevalent? What’s the difference between a believer and an atheist? Here’s an attempt. Let’s say an ardent monotheist and an atheist are at war, it would go something like this:

Monotheist – In the name of God DIE!

Atheist – I won’t fight because God doesn’t exist. Your petty beliefs do not concern me, I have more important things to GAHK#$J!! *Dies*

*Monotheist reloads his gun*

Simply put, people who believe in God have something to believe in, something to fight for, something to hold onto and survive for. People without religion, without a believe of a heaven or an afterlife, those who realize the truth that we are truly alone in this world, tend to be the ones who go peacefully into the night.

Thus the surplus of Christians. As on to human revelations and visions of God and angels? There is but one man who can put it so eloquently, George Carlin.

I leave you with two of his quotes and a link that will perhaps clear up the issue and close the case of religion once and for all.

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…Here's another question I've been pondering -- what is all this **** about angels? Have you heard this? Three out of four people belive in angels. Are you f#cking stupid? Has everybody lost their mind? You know what I think it is? I think it's a massive, collective, psychotic chemical flashback for all the drugs smoked, swallowed, shot, and obsorbed rectally by all Americans from 1960 to 1990. Thirty years of street drugs will get you some f#cking angels, my friend!
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In the Bull**** Department, a businessman can't hold a candle to a clergyman. 'Cause I gotta tell you the truth, folks. When it comes to bull****, big-time, major league bull****, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims: religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bull**** story ever told.
Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man -- living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!
But He loves you.
He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bull**** story. Holy ****!

--George Carlin

And with that I rest my case. Peace out.


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-I would never want to be a member of a group whose symbol was a guy nailed to two pieces of wood
-The Christians are coming, and they are not nice people.
--George Carlin

Riiiight.

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Genesis 22:2-5 - And God said unto Abraham "You must kill your son, Isaac." And Abraham said "What? I can't hear you! You'll have to speak into the microphone." And God said "Check, check, check, check. Jerry, can you pull the high end out. I'm getting some hiss up here."
"I'm not quiet: I just like to quote mute people."
^ My life story
Valuable Life Lesson: Frog + Potato Gun = Blindness
Catalog of Electronic Components - Complete IC data sheets
National Electrical Code® (NEC®) Online - Legal requirements for wiring projects.