.... i love you, krig

Why?! Why is everyone so against this? These kids deserve what they get! You wanna deal drugs, join gangs, commit violent crime, disobey every rule of every authority figure, etc, then you deserve it. Someone has to control these kids.


So then I guess we'll just let these destructive kids gone on about their destructive ways without anyone trying to stop them.

Your reason has no place here bobafett. Run while you can.

Nope. i'm not saying that at all. but i do think its taking it way too far. like krig said, its like trying to cure a headache with a sledghammer. or kill a fly by flighing a brick at it. i do not doubt that tehre are soem kids that deserve to be sent there. but i'm rahter sure they are in the minority by alot. i stand by what i said. However, i was very angry then, so its a bit harsher then i meant.

Judging by some of the parents and their reasoning in the article, it seems that many of them don't understand their kids enough, or they just want to change them to their specifications (ex, the girl with the "wrong" choice of boyfriend, the girl who "just didn't like" the parents enough).

All in all, VERY poor reasoning to send these people to a sick place like that. Even for those who are extremely destructive, there are still other options that are not that... cruel.

Dear god, not pot?!?!!

Yes, there are children out there that are out of control, with parents incapable of doing anything. This is why we have laws, so that if they do anything truly awful, they will be sent away. As stated by this father, his son had never done anything illegal (I'm sorry, but smoking a bit of weed does not warrant incarceration), but the court ruling that children are effectively property of their parents, with no human rights of their own, allows him to send him away to be tortured anyway.

I live in a reasonably unpleasant area of North London, and there are many many nasty kids who live around here, who have made mine and my mother's lives difficult at various times, without ever actually breaking the law. Their parents don't care, and even if they did, these people don't even make $40,000 a year, never mind have it to spend on incarcerating their kids. So we complained to the police and the council again and again and now there is a system in place to report antisocial behaviour as it happens. If and when the kids do anything which the police (that is, the law) deems worthy, they will be punished.

The reason that we have laws against corporal punishment is that it is inhumane and unnecessary. Violence breeds violence, it's common sense. One parent (or two) should not have the power to decide that their child deserves this. Governments are in place in order to ensure that everyone gets a bare minimum standard of living. Tranquility Bay just allows parents to circumnavigate the laws of their own country by sending them somewhere where children aren't expected to be treated as they are over here.



Corporal punishment isn't the issue, it's discipline in general. The society we now live in allows children to become independent far too young, and too often the parents just don't care (take the thugs living on my street, for instance). I have never been struck by a guardian, and I have never understood the need for violence (though I do like a good playfight every now and again!). Children raised to understand that bad behaviour is punished by physical violence will go on to use that violence to get what they want later in life.

God forbid parents actually parent. No, let's just send them to a torture chamber for three years and scar them for the rest of their lives! That'll teach them to be kids!

This is what we're trying to say, boba, but all you can concentrate on are the people who 'deserved' to be put there. Drug dealers, gangbangers, etc. Those two are examples of why this is such a HORRIBLE idea.

So wait wait wait.

Because a girl had a boyfriend her parents didn't like, she needed to get sent here?

Seriously.

"We suck at raising our kid, so lets send him to a place worse than prison for a few years until he's brainwashed into being obedient!"

If your kid is messed up and is getting into trouble, it's because you didn't do your job as a parent. I've known a lot of messed up kids, and not a single one of them actually had good parents. Certainly there's exceptions (there always are), but I highly doubt that there are enough exceptions to warrant a facility such as this.

This sickens me. It's another excuse for neglectful parents to be lazy and pass on the responsibility of raising their child.

A hundred years ago, all blacks were slaves and the economy was booming. Connection? Most certainly.



That's the thing, a lot of Americans seem morbidly afraid of anything that even looks like government.
It's cruel, inhumane and unjust... but at least it's not government becoming powerful!!.

A corrupt, exploitive private enterprise seems preferable to a sensibly empowered government, and it breeds these sorts of things.

NO ONE deserves to have the basic inalienable rights this country was founded on, taken from them. NO ONE.

I wouldn't even wish such torture on murderers.

It's SICK.

Even if that was never the case.

Shouldn't you be busy Heiling Hitler?

There is something called basic human dignity. Being forced to lie motionless, face down on a cold concrete floor for eighteen hours does not go hand in hand with this. It is sick. And some wonder why everyone is against it. Hmmm....

Damn straight. Some people around here act like the bill of rights dosen't even exist.

I'll say one more thing.

Theres a reason this place can't be operated on American soil.

[tangent]

Last night after reading this article I had a dream I was in tranquility bay and was going to escape. It sucked because I could only rescue one other person with me because I had a Sanchez dirt bike instead of like a 4 door car (I've been playing too much San Andreas).

So I saved someone out of OP and we got on the bike and jumped over the wall (thankfully there was a unique jump ramp set up for us to do so) and then we started flying around on the bike in a snowy forest with evergreen trees.

I woke up feeling irritable, partly because I could only save the one person and then only in a dream, and also because the controls for flying the motorbike were so awful that it was obviously a console port.

[/tangent]

LOL NAZI POST

Explain your reasoning.

I never said that. Obviously choice of boyfriend\girlfriend isn't a reason to be sent there. Now you're just trying to put words in my mouth. I'm simply saying that certain kids, a small minority but still a group of kids nonetheless, are totally out of control and need some sort of severe thing like this to straighten them out. But obviously parents who send their kids there just cause they don't like their choice of boyfriend\girlfriend are morons.

I love how some of you are talking about having the kids go to prison and what not as if prison/juvenile hall will actually reform the kids.

Then that's a problem with the systems in place that needs to be addressed, Avenger, not something to be solved by sending your kids off to torture camp. Yes, the figures for reoffending are appalling (no idea what they actually are!), but that's because people are far too concerned with punishing law breakers rather than reforming them. Locking up drug users, for instance, is about the most pointless thing I can think of. If all their doing is using, and haven't hurt anyone else in the process (ie, theft to fund it), then they don't need to be in prison, they need to be in rehab.

Prison should be about reform, but people are too afraid to admit that criminals aren't necessarily "the enemy", and are far too often just people in bad situations who made bad choices and need guidance. (Before people start calling me a tree-hugging hippy, no, I am obviously not referring to muderers and rapists etc, but once again, that's not what this conversation is about, it's about kids who have committed minor infractions, haven't even been in trouble with the law, but are being treated like monsters nonetheless)

Yeah, but not like this. This is torture, man. This is reprogramming them. And if they want to be destructive and whatnot, let them. They'll eventually pay the consequences in jail or even worse, dead. Not only that, but why should we leave it open for ANYONE to send their kids to? I mean, shouldn't there be some sort of review committee, if nothing else, to judge if you should be able to go there?

Don't get me wrong, some kids need to be taken to a place where they can get controlled (d-home, juvy, jail), but this is just beyond humane.

Avenger--the lesser offenders will get reformed in d-home/juvy/jail, but the 'hardcore' ones won't. It's the same in Tranquility Bay--they just wait until they're 18 then leave.

I don't know about you, but I don't want to be the one held up at knife point, have my stuff vandalized, or something worse by some punk kid. While I agree an impartial review committee would be beneficial, I really don't want to wait to be a participant in actions that have consequences for them.

Perhaps, but something like this isn't for lesser offenders. Again, I don't think the article does a good job of describing why these kids are actually there. Are there going to be cases where the punishment is extreme? Yes, and those are the cases where the kid shouldn't be there. However, when all other possibilities have been explored places like this are the last resort. Parents don't send thier kids to camps like this because they hate their kids or want them to be punished so harshly. They do it because they fear for their child's life, because they love their child, because they can't stand the life their child has chosen. This is their last shot saving the kid. Is it harsh? Of course it is, but that's the point.

Furthermore, camps like this operate on a system of good behavior. If you do as your told, don't act out, ect, you don't have to deal with the crap that some of these kids are going through. It's a very black and white system. If you violate the rules, you will be punished. Continue to violate the rules and you will be punished even more. They have to do this, and do it harshly, to establish boundries for these kids because they have none. The typical kid at these camps is used to being the top dog and that can't be allowed at these camps.

[url]www.63days.com[/url]

Like I said above, it puts things into perspective. God only knows what's actually going on in this camp.

Read through the whole thing last night, had quite a bit of trouble falling asleep.

Okay, I was going to make a deep constructive post quoting lots of people and counter-quoting people, but I can sum it up with:

Has anyone read "A Clockwork Orange"!?!?!?

Saw the movie, loved it, too lazy to get the book.

1984 makes more sense here, but yeah, ACO was the second thing I thought of.

Even the "harcore" ones don't deserve to be sent to the Jamacian equivalent of Auschwitz.

I've done some digging (mostly by following a trail of links about TB from site to site) and it gets way worse.

http://www.bulletinboards.com/view.cfm?comcode=Titsch

(token language warning)

I'm currently reading "63 Days"...
It has showed me reality, and how truely sick the people in this world can be, and how twisted their minds are. I'm seriously contemplating a stand up against all of this ****, with violence if necessary.

And in the meantime, so is everyone else. Think before you post.

Go to http://www.bulletinboards.com/view.cfm?comcode=Titsch like Pagewizard said. Read the 27th post, it's titled "4 real, no Doubt". It's probably the worst one I've read so far. Girls being punched in the face, having their arms broken and shoulders dislocated, nobody, especially girl, deserves that. Read it.

Except in the 'real world', nothing is black and white.

We need people to challenge authority, to keep putting pressure on the system and on society. It's these sorts of kids that stop us from becoming lazy and complacent because they show us that the system doesn't work. Brainwashing these children into mindless slaves might well work, but it will do nothing to help future generations of deliquents. Are we just going to have a constant flow of children being 'fixed' like this? It would be a whole lot cheaper and easier to just give them lobotomies.
This isn't about 'individuals', this is about the system and insufficient government policy.

It seems to me, according to descriptions in the article and other sources, that many of the "participants" are exhibiting symptoms like that of Stockholm Syndrome (where captives who, after surpression, beatings, abuse, confinement, begin to agree with their captors, and that they feel that the time spent incarcerated "helped" them). That is NOT what a time in a reformation institution should result in. Period.

...
"These kids are being tortured!!!"
"Well actually it helped us..."
"You're just delusional! Save the whales!"

You'd be surprised at the amount of irresponsible parents.

Go. Right now. The movie was wrong. It left out the last chapter of the book. Even if you go to the library, and spend 20 minutes just reading the last chapter, you really, really need to.

And I just finished 63 days. Can anyone confirm if this is real? I plan on doing research later tonight..

Yeah, I've been meaning to read the book.

And the Steve C. (I think) guy mentioned turns up related stuff on Google. That stuff's real.

http://www.tranquilitybay.org/index.php?id=1

Notice that they provide no photos of sleeping areas or hygiene facilities, no activity photos of anything but their "Fun Day" (and even then, none of the kids look happy).