http://washingtontimes.com/national/20040516-121028-9603r.htm



Hell, while we are at it, to help really repair our wounded reputation, the athletes, when accepting their gold medals, should also apologize for oppressing their fellow athletes from less-privileged countries by committing the transgression of beating them.

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I can't think of anything to put here right now.

<American Athlete> How about I give you the finger-- *finger*-- and you let me wave my flag?

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The Matrix is not Linux compatible.

^^ werd

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</sarcasm>

That...is...what's the word I'm looking for? It's...it starts with a 'b', I know that. ball? Boll? I think it ends with 'it'. Can someone please help me?

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WOOSH|-----@%

Bullocks... That's what you're looking for. And you're right.

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-=I'm the wang of this here site, and it's HUGE! So just imagine how big I am.=-
1337Yectiwan
OSC Returns!!
10 of 14 -- 27 Lives On

I love you, Thrawn.

bigot?

And Sine, just don't let my wannabe girlfriend know.

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I can't think of anything to put here right now.

pshh! Like they'd win anyways!

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When bread becomes toast, it can never go back to being bread again.

bah

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

As long as other countries don't do the same then that seems fair.
The Olympics is an international event, and should be celebrating how all nations can compete together on an equal level, based only on achievement. Patriotism has no place in it. And the whole "god bless America" malarkey is really quite irritating, and America is easily the most patriotic country in the world (90% of Americans said they were proud of their countries, compared to 54% of Britons and 35% of the French, from polls conducted by The Economist).
Americans, and everyone else for that matter, toning down, and even getting rid of patriotism is nothing but a good thing.

erm. no. Patriotism is a huge part of american culture. It is a good thing.


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IMPORTANT NOTICE PLEASE READ

Employees dying on the job are faling to fall down. THIS PRACTICE MUST STOP as it becmes impossible to distinguish between death and the natural movement of he staf.

Any employee found dead in an upright position will be dropped from the payroll.

Indeed, it is a huge part of American culture. And I think it's a huge problem.

Well I think you're a huge problem

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Roach - Caught in the war of hemispheres.
0 of 14.

Okay, let's see. America has a high patriotism rate which means most Americans like their country. Conversly the European countries you cite have low (or lower) patriotism rates thus meaning that their citizens must like their countries less than Americans like theirs. And somehow we're the ones with the problem.

You have officially become my favorite poster on this site.

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Have you forgotten ...

The point is also to represent your country as best you can.. if you win, you should be able to wave the flag around.

Patriotism can only create division between nations, an arrogance that only causes conflict.

It's only because of the low levels of patriotism in Europe that make the EU possible, and it's the patriotic nations such as Norway (and the considerably uneuropean Britain) that really cause problems. Overcoming patriotism within Europe is really the aim of the EU, instead making citizens feel as citizens of Europe, not citizens of their particular countries.
(Of course, once a united Europe is achieved, the aim will be to expand that across other continents, but that's a lot way off).

This unity of nations is really what the modern world should be trying to achieve, and it is patriotism that stands in the way of it.
Ask yourself, why are you patriotic? Why should you be proud to be American? Why not be proud of what non-Americans have done?
Why not be proud of Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein, Charles Darwin, Mahatma (sp?) Ghandi, Florence Nightingale, Siddhartha Buddha, Fritjof Nansen, Henry Dunant, Bertrand Russell, Mairead Maguire, Ang San Soo Kyi?

Why should you be proud of a single land mass when there is so much that has been achieved by the rest of the world?

You're not just an American citizen, you're a citizen of Earth too.

(Actually, you're not, as I believe the word 'citizen' does refer to nationality, so I guess we need a new word. 'worldizen' or something)



If another country wins, why not wave their flag?

[This message has been edited by Mort-Hog (edited May 17, 2004).]

Some do, and I have no problem with that. In fact, I would encourage it. If someone wins a gold medal they have represented their country to the finest possible and deserve to wave their country's flag around.

And these numbers must be accurate because I'm postive they asked each citizen of each nation. Polls are conducted through sample groups. The whole thing is very innaccurate. I know lots of people; the percentage of them that are proud of the US isn't anywhere near the 90% mark.


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Baby Mama's Drama

This is a dumb debate.
I live in the USA. I like my country. Am I patriotic? Hell no. It only creates problems.

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</sarcasm>

Oh please, they aren't fooling anyone. I can tell that is crap just by the French percentage. The French take patriotism one step further into Nationalism.

Mort, you can have your opinion(which isn't even based on anything) but you try to pass it off as fact and that pisses me off to no end. You have no clue of what you are talking about. Overcoming patriotism is the main goal of the EU? No, it's economic prosperity that is the driving force for the EU. Anybody who has taken one european country politics class or is even an avid news watcher could tell you that. And we are proud of non-Americans. Who on earth wouldn't be proud and happy about the acheivements of great scientists and philosophers?

Note to everyone else: Mort has a tendency to be emotional when it comes to politics. Do not take his opinions seriously.

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Is Wayne Brady going to have to choke a *****?

[This message has been edited by Kieran Horn (edited May 17, 2004).]

Read http://www.norc.uchicago.edu/new/patriot.htm

The raw data is at:
http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/98/980630.patriotism.shtml

I think this link analyses the same data:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/wat/archive/wat080398.htm


Bear in mind this study was taken in 1998. I imagine that after the WTC attacks, the figures for the US would have gone up. I imagine Britain's National Pride has probably decreased, heh.

http://www.economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=1313880
This talks about American patriotism after the WTC attacks, but I'm not sure what they're getting their data from.


It's a fair point, though, but representativity can be a point of discussion in every single statistic ever. I imagine that patriotism is muchly stratified with some areas of America considerably more patriotic than others (I'm looking at you, Texas). But this study isn't looking at patriotism within the US, but rather taking a national average and comparing it with other countries.
I imagine that such a study within the US has probably been done already.

How is patriotism a bad thing? You're supporting and feeling proud of where you were born, where you live, and your fellow citizens.

If we don't wave our flags around, that's dumb. Unless every other country also does not wave their flags around, then we should too.

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Kids must be shot by Monday.

Honesty tests for workers can't be trusted, report says.

Psychopaths are unpredictable.

Jay Leno's Headlines > Everything

Yes, I'm perfectly aware of the increasingly popular anti-French propaganda that's rampant throughout the US. But do you actually have any evidence to support your claims, at all, other than "Oh I met a French person once. He wasn't very nice".

What this study (possibly) finds is that there might be a small minority of extreme nationalists (who would probably be in the public eye a lot more than anyone else), but the vast majority are considerably less patriotic.



The most common reason given for Britons not wanting to join the Euro was patriotism. Britons didn't want to give up the pound because it was their 'national heritage'. This was the main line of argument given by the Conservatives against the Euro.

(This is particularly ironic, as there were three other much better economic reasons to not join the Euro, but those were pretty much totally overlooked)

The Conservative party use the 'patriotism' argument against the EU in general (if voted in, the Conservatives will probably withdraw Britain from the EU).

Yes, the primary purpose of the EU (and more specifically the Euro) is to give Europe greater economic stability, but the ramifications go much beyond that. The EU allows free mobility throughout EU states, so that any EU citizen can go to University or get a job in any other EU country without any hassle. National pride would most certainly alienate the immigrants in that country, and make it much much harder for them to integrate into the society. European integration is the key to a successful European Union.

National pride has also been a great hindrance when debating the European Constitution, as the more patriotic countries are preferring a much more isolationist anti-european stance, instead of moving forward and uniting with their neighbours. Clinging to the past condemns you to eternally live in it.



Right. But are you as 'proud' of them as you are of American achievements? Are you as proud of Sputnik and Yuri Gagarin as you are of Neil Armstrong?

Why do you wave an American flag? What are you 'proud' of?


Why are you proud of where you're born? You didn't choose where you were born, and I assume that most of you didn't choose where you live either.
Why not be proud of some other country, some country where you weren't born or don't live?

[This message has been edited by Mort-Hog (edited May 17, 2004).]

Oh dear. It's becoming dangerous.

Patriotism is good. Extreme patriotism is bad. America, in my mind's long-sighted eye, is verging on the border between the two. Americans do take a lot of pride in their country, and in ways that is linked with patriotism. But there are still times when people from one country are 'patriotic' enough to stitch up an opposing supporter with a pipe.

I think all the teams should keep the patriotism extremes down, naturally. But that comment is verging on the wantonly pointless.

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Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness.

If other nations wave their flags, then I don't see why we shouldn't. But our athletes should strive to let their performance, not their celebration be remembered.

Maybe I'm just having bad memories of a certain relay team that made the US look really freaking bad.

That is patriotism.

Being patriotic doesn't mean people dislike or hate other countries or are a cause for international conflict. Granted, it can be abused and used to promote conflict, but that's not always the case.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

Well, one of the indictators would be the several nationalist political parties it has, the biggest of which is called the National Front and is predicted to take power soon.

Actually, I don't even have an American flag. And I am proud of alot. I could list a bunch of examples(in fact, I did but it was so disorganized I deleted it), but that would be tedious. Instead, let me distill everything down to one thing: the astounding progression our country has made since it became independent.

I suppose I'll answer your edit too:
You ask that like I couldn't look over to Britain and say "Hey Parliament, that was a smart move." I can and I do. But in the end my own country matters more to me than some other country because my country affects me directly. Why do you love your mom? You didn't get to choose your mom. But that doesn't matter to you, now does it? You still have your reasons.

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Is Wayne Brady going to have to choke a *****?

Wookie06 is a prime example of why Blind patriotisim is a bad thing. It so consumes his every wakening moment that he wouldn't be able to see evidence of US wrong doing if it slapped him in his face until he was silly.

Seconly, why do people take a blind devotion to what country they were born in? Why not take pride in simply the fact that your a member of the human race?



I agree. In fact, I believe no country should be allowed to wave their flag, it's nothing short of gloating...

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"At last, we have come to find the truth to our souls. Though, the truth is not what we expected. I now fear my own soul."

[This message has been edited by CaptBewil (edited May 17, 2004).]

Okay, so why not be proud of other countries that have made tremendous progression? Like.. Japan, or something. Depends on what you mean by 'progression'.

The point is, though, why not be proud of actual 'things' rather than a particular land mass?
Like, say, you could say "I like America because it has nice forests".
This means that you like forests. Other countries have forests too.
A rather simplified example, yes, but next time you wave your minature flag ask yourself what specifically it is about America that you 'love'.
'Patriotism' is a purely abstract idea.
'America' is not a 'thing'. 'America' is not a 'concept'. Yes, you can spout things like 'American culture' but that too is just abstract.
There is no one thing that America has that no other country in the world has.
Unless you're proud of the world largest ball of twine or something.




Well that's just it. The actions of other countries might not affect you, but your actions certainly affect other countries. As a sole superpower, who you vote in will not only affect American lives but indeed the lives of the rest of the world too. This is why the US needs to become a more responsible global partner and integrate more into the global community.

I guess it's a historical thing. Patriotism used to be very useful when countries could more or less rely on themselves and it was necessary to try and unite all citizens towards something or rather.
But now the world is moving on, things are changing, countries no longer exist on their own, and there is far more interaction with other countries throughout the world. Patriotism is becoming less and less useful.
Imagine the tension when a world leader is trying to set up trade relations with another country, while also saying "This country is the best country in the world!" at the same time. The two approaches simply don't work together.
Immigrants need to be welcomed into countries, and patriotism will only alienate them, and try to force upon them a foreign culture, rather than establish a multi-cultural society.


You're assuming everyone loves their mother. Not everyone does. You can easily love some other woman, such as a nanny or aunt or grandmother.

But the link between you and your mother is much stronger than the link between you and some other guy that just happened to be born on the same land mass as you.


The really irritating thing about patriotism in America specifically (and Britain too, increasingly) is that it seems to be automatically considered a good thing. A 'patriotic' person is instantly a decent person, and you can't be a decent person without being patriotic. Certainly in presidential campaigns, "I'm more patriotic than you!" seems to be a common line of argument.

[This message has been edited by Mort-Hog (edited May 17, 2004).]

First off, there is (or at least there should be) a difference between love and being devoted (granted you can be both, but they should be addressed seperately).

Seconly, [edit]I was going to respond to how not being blinded from the truth allowed me to see the flaws in my mother, but I couldn't find a way to word it in a way that wouldn't inaccurately paint me as a heartless *******.[/edit]

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"At last, we have come to find the truth to our souls. Though, the truth is not what we expected. I now fear my own soul."

Uh, duh. Because the human race sucks.
But I feel America is the best of a stupid race, so if that makes me patriotic then stfu and get over it.

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Do you have stairs in your house?

Me.

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WOOSH|-----@%

When a little child loves his mother, he thinks she is perfect and flawless and beautiful, and ignores what all the other children say. That is exactly how a lot of Americans love their country.

<3

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Do you have stairs in your house?

I guess you could be proud that your country lets to to gripe about patriotism and such with out throwing you in jail or chopping your head off.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

I'd like to meet the Americans you've met, and then proceed to punch them in the face. People around here enjoy living in the U.S., but are more than aware of its flaws.

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Roach - Caught in the war of hemispheres.
0 of 14.

There was a quote once, I wish I could remember exactly how it went and who said it, but it was something like "a person's greatness is not judged by their failures, but by their successes."

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Do you have stairs in your house?

And I pat Japan on the back. But it's still as not as impressive as what the US has done and can do. And I don't mean that in a "my country is better than your country" way. I'm just more impressed by how America has done things than how Japan has down things.

our legal system, our constitution and its flexibility, the checks and balances between each branch of government that keep one from having complete control, the american participation in politics being very high(outside of voting that is), our federalism, our rights, etc, etc. In short: our system. I also realize that the US isn't perfect either. It has its flaws. Quite a few actually.

You can still love something and hate what it does at the same time. I feel that way to both my country and mom at times.

And that is just stupid. But so is thinking your mom(or country) is just the same as every other mom. Some moms are abusive, some are crack addicts, some are soccer moms, some are supermoms. Same with countries.

Let me put it this way: I would not want to live anywhere else but the US because I enjoy the various facets of the country. And if need be, I will protect them. Yes, I've lived my entire life in the US so I'm going to be biased but I have yet to see something I like better.

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Is Wayne Brady going to have to choke a *****?

[This message has been edited by Kieran Horn (edited May 17, 2004).]

Thus, if a number of people feel this way, it must be a terrible, horrible thing for people to be proud of their country, for it must mean that all people who share that pride are blind to the flaws in their country.

Smart move there, ace.

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<ubuu> does hitler have a last name?
<jipe> .. yes, Ubuu, we're racist commy nazi jews, and we hate male pattern baldness
<Professor`K> Sorry, but half-way through your logic, my head exploded