He said a lot, which doesn't even necessarily mean a majority...

And furthermore, he was talking about only the people who are BOTH patriotic and blind to the flaws of the US.
*cough*wookie06*cough*

so, yeah...nice going there, ace.

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"At last, we have come to find the truth to our souls. Though, the truth is not what we expected. I now fear my own soul."

[This message has been edited by CaptBewil (edited May 17, 2004).]

I have absolutelly no clue why this has become a debate thread. Patriotism has nothing to do with the olympics, or at least, not the sort of 9/11 blind patriotism. The patriotism shown at the world olympics is because your country just kicked the other countries' asses. Every other country flies their flags, and if people in the audience get upset every time an american waves a flag, then we might as well give the Afganees a pollo team.

You people would argue if I put a bowl of fruit on the table. Status Que: Plastic, or real?

JediKirby

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<]-[ellequin> Nothing is quite as satisfying as placing a .177 lead pellet in between the eyes of a cat.
<]-[ellequin> I think I will leave it's corpse there, to warn all the other cats to keep out of my hibiscus patch

Live on, Adam.

Wow Bewil, it's nice to see that your mind-reading powers work so well, since you're able to read Wookie06's mind and all.

See Bewil, it's self-righteous, 'omnipotent' people like you that make me want to post a nice 'STFU' pic. But since I don't feel like being banned, I'll ignore that urge.

He's proud of his country. That's not excatly a ****ing news flash. He voluntarily took an oath to protect this country. The same oath I took over 2 years ago. The same oath Brian and others here took. I don't know about them, but I did this because I like this country. Yes, we've got some problems, but all in all, it's a nice place to live. And I'd die before I see some ****ing pricks destroy my country.

Oh, and the patriotism of American's is what had helped to keep this country together.

Thank you Mister Sinister!

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Is Wayne Brady going to have to choke a *****?

There is a difference between patriotism and blind nationalism.

If a person believes in their country, that's great. If a person thinks that their country can do anything because it's their country, that's not a great thing. I don't think we are there quite yet. You may hear it from some, but they are far from the rule, I think.

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Steal my dreams and sell them back to me.....

Wow, jsut because someone has different views than yours, you assume, he's not smart enough to recognize a country's flaws. You're pretty slick yourself, ace

Mort, patriotism doesn't have to be the bandwagoning crap you saw post 9/11, you know. If that's what you think patriotism is, you need to go somewhere by yourself and do some serious reflecting. It's not thinking your own country is superior to every other country out there. It's not thinking that your own country is perfect and that it has no flaws what so ever.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

That or the fact that we've got the largest military in the world, or the fact that we're also the richest nation on earth. Patriotism doesn't hold water, let alone things together.

JediKirby

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<]-[ellequin> Nothing is quite as satisfying as placing a .177 lead pellet in between the eyes of a cat.
<]-[ellequin> I think I will leave it's corpse there, to warn all the other cats to keep out of my hibiscus patch

Live on, Adam.

Well, it sure as hell helped us during the American Revolution when we had a piss poor military, no money, but patriotism and conviction up the wazoo. It also helped with WWII. The soldiers wouldn't have fought nearly as hard if they weren't bonded together through something.

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Is Wayne Brady going to have to choke a *****?

THe US has the most technologically advanced military, but both North Korea and China have larger militaries that we do.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

Except for Catch 22, for those who have read the book .

I think patriotism is fine, more than fine. It's helped us through many things, including the Civil War, and has also made us the best country in the world, the fastest. Why? Because we STRIVE to be the best, that's the patriotic feeling. Having low patriotism, and only thinking of the "common good" is bs, that's so against the human instinct it's not even funny. Every human wants to be the best, why? Because it's natural. If you don't, you're an odd man out. Yah, so patriotism doesn't suck, and most of this board's population is American, though there is a big percentage otherwise. Mort, I suggest you stop before you make a worse name for yourself with those American friends you have on this board.

Oh, and just to make this post official, if we can't wave our flag at Athens, I sense anti-Greek tensions.


Oh, second edit, Mort, after reading your "Why be proud of AMERICA" posts, you've appealed to me as THE single most intelligent person on this board. I believe Wolfy got it right when he said "Great job, ace"
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[This message has been edited by Dj Yoshi (edited May 17, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Dj Yoshi (edited May 17, 2004).]

This is a sad, sad day in human history. I honestly think that the Olympics should just be done away with. We've taken an event that used to symbolize peace and unity, and twisted it into some perverted popularity contest. The Olympics aren't about who wins or loses, it's supposed to show that a group of people from around the world can put aside their differences and just do what they do best. I don't think I'll be watching them this year, that is, if Greece is actually able to pull the event off.

Damn, that felt good.

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"I sound like angry chickens, or maybe a space robot."
-Les Claypool of Primus

Haha, no that's capitalism, not patriotism Dj Yoshi

-edit We're gonna beat you all in the swimming anyway, you might as well all stay home.

[This message has been edited by GHORG (edited May 17, 2004).]

I agree with you... the countries get too involved when did it stop being about the athletic events again?

Back in the 1938 Berlin games(correct me if I'm wrong about the date). Actually, one could say the Olympics were never truly, fully about athletics. Even in the time of the Greeks, they were concerned with making their city-state look better than the the other guy's.

Meh, I had a chance to rant, so I took it. Sorry if I "offend" anyone.

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"I sound like angry chickens, or maybe a space robot."
-Les Claypool of Primus

Or maybe it's *GASP* Both?!

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There is no signature

Yes, patriotism does a great job of unifying a single country together, and that was especially necessary in the past. Certainly during the Civil War and shortly after.

But that is the past.

The future of the world is unity, to try and unite countries together. Patriotism is one great big wall put up between countries and needs to be broken down. In the same way that the states of America are united, the nation states of the world must be united. Yes, it will take an extremely long time, but it is in that direction that we must meander.
I'm very glad that many of you (claim to) realise the flaws of your country, but why do you consider yourself patriotic? Why not stand up and say "I am not patriotic."? If you can judge your country and consider its strengths and weaknessess objectively, and consider it equal to other countries, then you are not patriotic. There is nothing 'wrong' with not being patriotic.

To try and meander back to the original theme of this thread, global unity is precisely what is expressed at events such as the Olympics. If excessive patriotism is involved, then..heh, it'll turn into the Eurovision Song Contest.



From the same opinion poll as given earlier, 50% of Americans think that America has divine protection.



Why? Why not see your country destroyed?

Or rather, why not see your country change? Change and adapt to the needs of modern society. Europe is (slowly) uniting, and through Turkey relations between Europe and the Middle East are building. The Commonwealth countries have always been close (though perhaps not for quite the right reasons). If America doesn't start to move on, America will be left behind.
Countries do not exist on their own.

[This message has been edited by Mort-Hog (edited May 18, 2004).]

It's my opinion that 50% (or more) of the world is retarded anyway, so it's no surprise that 50% of americans would think teh jesu was protecting us.

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WOOSH|-----@%

Uh, I'm going to avoid the patriotism debate except to add this: America is moving on. We're the richest and most powerful country in the world, with the highest GDP by at least 40% and growth rates that exceed those of our nearest competitors by a great margin.

It really isn't America that's in trouble, at least not by any conventional standard. It's the countries with costly social programs and protectionist trade policies, or whose economies are victims of said countries' neo-colonialist influence, that are being left behind. France and Germany are prime examples of the former. Sub-Saharan Africa of the latter.

But, I forget, lowering standards of living and starvation are of little concern to a true citizen of the world! We're moving foward! Have fun in the dust, America!

[This message has been edited by Sine Nomen (edited May 18, 2004).]

Are you freaking serious? I'm having a hard time believing anything you're posting on this topic at this point. I don't want to see my country destoyed because it's my country. I believe in the ideals that this country was founded on and I don't want to have to live under some facist regime where I can't think for myself or do what I want when I want.

Can you honestly say that if another country invaded, you'd just sit back and let them parade their tanks down your street? You'd willfully submit to whatever form of government they decide on, even if it means giving up the personal freedoms you so gladly enjoy in the country you live in? Even if you have to live in fear of being shot dead in the street or thrown in prison for thinking differently or speaking out against the government?

If you answer yes to any of that, you're to most naive person on the face of this planet and need to open your eyes and experience some reality.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.

Because as it is, I do not trust the federal government to have as much power over me as it does, and I dare not consider a global government to be a better alternative.

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Roach - Caught in the war of hemispheres.
0 of 14.

Yes, actually, i most totally certainly am in fact. As i am darn proud of the fact that Russia put the first woman in space as well.

I wish that Sputnik were still around, because i would totally salute that bugger every time it passed overhead beeping its little beep. Booyah to Gagarin i say, and hoorj for Sputnik.

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
"If all those usefull inventions that are lyable to abuse, should therefore be concealed, there is not any Art or Science, which might be lawfully profest."
-John Wilkins, Mercury, or the Secret and Swift messenger, shewing how a man may with privacy and speed Communicate his thoughts to a Friend at any distance (London, 1641)
NPC.Interact::PressButton($'Submit');

/me hoorjes at sputnik and sheds a tear.

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When bread becomes toast, it can never go back to being bread again.

australia is much better at patriotism. we dont bother to try and say we are the best, if you feel you need to be waveing a flag all the time and think your country is the best, then you need to be forcefuly removed and taken to a different country.

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Those silly bullets have minds of their own!
Jon`C:Irony is spelling 'quality' poorly.
Spork:Well I think 'Irony is spelling grammar poorly'
Snail racing: (500 posts per line)-@%

*******! I spilled my soda!

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"Our hero chucks a few rocks..."

Who needs mind-reading powers when they openly express their ignorance?



Ah, so you do have self-restraint. Good, perhaps there's hope for you yet.



Wait a second...I remember something about mind-reading...nevermind.



I too will defend my little piece of turf on this planet. But I dare not to loose my objectivity in the process. This peice of turf is what I call home...not the city, state, or country that it is located in. You see, pride is a double-edged sword. One one side you have unity in a common goal. On the other side, you have vanity. With vanity, you loose objectivity...you become blind by that which your take pride in. Sure, you can realize some of the flaws. But only if others like you notice them or admit to them as well. Whenever someone outside of the group (in this case, the country) picks out a flaw, you take it as a slap in the face...and your vanity takes over.



Yes, but it has been greatly misplaced.



First off, I believe he was using "Destroyed" in terms of no longer being as it is now.

Secondly, you ARE already living under some facit regime....or have you not heard of the Patriot Act (which, is oddly named, I think...but then again, by the diffintion of "patriotism that has been described on the boards, maybe not).



And you wonder why the Iraqis are fighting back? But it has nothing to do with Pride or Patrotism. Just as Pride and Patrotism had nothing to do with our own American Revolution. You see, you don't need either of those to come together to rid your country...your homeland of a threat. If an Astroid 5-miles in diameter was projected to hit Earth, do you really beleive that Pride and Patrotism is what will bring people together? Or will it be the natural instict of survival that they shall band together to eliminate the threat?



Ironic.



Under the current system and situation, I agree. But this has nothing to do with Pride or Patrotisim...

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"At last, we have come to find the truth to our souls. Though, the truth is not what we expected. I now fear my own soul."

[This message has been edited by CaptBewil (edited May 18, 2004).]

And I never said it did. If you actually read my post, you'd see I was answering why I don't want to see my country be destroyed. You can thank Mort for getting "off topic."

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Roach - Caught in the war of hemispheres.
0 of 14.

Jesus christ.

Firstly, Mort-Hog get real. You seriously need to take a firm grasp on reality and reassess your ridiculous political views. They simply don't hold water in the real world.

CaptBewill, AMERICA IS NOT A ****IN FACIST REGIME. I'm sick and tired of people like you throwing the term facism around like a hot potato! Go read up on what a fascist regime is, and see if America even comes close.

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"If there's one thing I've learned it's this - you just can't shake hands with a fist" - David Allen Coe

[Emphasis mine]

And, may I remind you, so is the US.
The new American steel tolls (that have hit us pretty hard) is but one example. The US don't want to compede with the EU, the EU don't want to compete with the US.
Free trade, which both parts are after, is about one thing; monopolization.

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"For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."
-Robert Jastrow

A law that gives the police authority to wire tap aall of a suspected terrorists phone numbers phone with consent of a judge, forces law enforcement and intelligence agencies to share information, allows law enforcement officers to search a suspects property with consent of a judge an without notifying the suspect to prevent him from hiding anything(I'm confused why this is one of the powers. Thats what a search warrant already does), makes it easier to look into the financial records of those who aren't in places of management(because that is already easy), and imposes harsher penalities should a terrorist(if they can prove the person is a terrorist of some kind) commit a crime such as arson or murder isn't fascist. (I win biggest run-on sentence award!)

In fact, the Patriot Act didn't change much. All it did was make one uniform code that all the states have to use so everything is different from state to state. The Patriot Act : search and seizure :: MPC : definitions of crimes and penalties. The MPC is used as a base of crimes in all states so what is legal or a misdeamnor in one state isn't a felony in another.

In short: stop with the Patriot Act fascism bull****. It doesn't give anyone more power, it just standardizes procedures and warrants.
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Is Wayne Brady going to have to choke a *****?

[This message has been edited by Kieran Horn (edited May 18, 2004).]

[edit - Fair enough...]

[This message has been edited by Roach (edited May 18, 2004).]

Funny that things like Carnivore or Clipper have been around for years and nobody's ever made the slightest mention of it in regards to privacy issues or fascism or whatever. But the moment the Patriot Act comes out, it popularizes and diseminates the idea of those sorts of things to the general public.

Much like nobody batted an eye, or practically even knew about Holy Blood Holy Grail when it came out back in the 80s, but when some authour decides they want to be cool and trendy and controversial, they turn it into some sort of pulp fiction DaVinci Code sophistry or whatever and suddenly everyone's an armchair expert and enlightened elite.

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
"If all those usefull inventions that are lyable to abuse, should therefore be concealed, there is not any Art or Science, which might be lawfully profest."
-John Wilkins, Mercury, or the Secret and Swift messenger, shewing how a man may with privacy and speed Communicate his thoughts to a Friend at any distance (London, 1641)
NPC.Interact::PressButton($'Submit');

[This message has been edited by Dormouse (edited May 18, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Dormouse (edited May 18, 2004).]

I haven't been reading this whole thread so this may not be relevant to the latest things said, but look, here's the deal:
There is nothing wrong with being patriotic for your country. In fact, I would recommend it. And don't even try that "the world needs to be united" bullcrap. I have so many things to say to that... why can't we be united and also be patriotic? if we're supposed to be united, why can't other countries accept our patriotism, as we accept theirs? how are we supposed to unite the world if we're not even allowed to unite our own countries? The point is, a person can be patriotic for their country and still accept others. In my time spent on the internet, I've come to be pretty good friends with people from England. Heck, there's a kid in my class at school who isn't even a US citizen - he's Scottish - and we seem to get along just fine. And I know for a fact that he is patriotic towards his country, and my friends online I know for a fact are patriotic towards theirs, but he also seems to like America pretty nicely and their citizens, and I don't have a problem with that. So why is there a problem with Americans being patriotic? Why can't I be patriotic for my country, and yet still enjoy England and like its people? The problem here is not the patriots, but the thick-headed people who for some reason assume patriotism means blindly loving ones own country and hating everything else. To you people I say this: grow up.

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Do you have stairs in your house?

You posted while I was editing my post.

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Is Wayne Brady going to have to choke a *****?

Yah, Mort's got some issues. First is his definition of Patriotism--he thinks that in order to love your country, you have to love it blindly. I seriously have lost a lot of respect for any debating power he may have held in these forums. I mean, I love my country, but I realize there are a LOT of things wrong with it. Oh well, they'll be fixed, and new ones will always pop up, only to be fixed. That's the beauty of America--it CAN BE FIXED. Unfortunately, with DMCA and a lot of other bullcrap, people are trying to keep it from being fixed the way that loses them that 50th condo in Florida. I mean, only a FEW MILLION DOLLARS A YEAR?!

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There is no signature

Look up the word Facism. If you find it hard to relate America to facism, you need to buy a better dictionary. This is simple fact. If you people don't accept it, I'll have to get out the dictionary, and give you, word for word, sources that prove this fact. I will, however, note that America isn't an extreme Facist Country. We ARE a democracy. I'm proud to be an American, Facism, Capitolism, and Democracy in all. People assume anything that ISN'T "Democracy" is bad. I'm not sure Facism is all that GOOD, but it's got arguably good points, and arguably bad points. Just like every other political party.

JediKirby

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<]-[ellequin> Nothing is quite as satisfying as placing a .177 lead pellet in between the eyes of a cat.
<]-[ellequin> I think I will leave it's corpse there, to warn all the other cats to keep out of my hibiscus patch

Live on, Adam.

You know, I've been on these forums for a long time. Yet I am still amazed at what people say. I just can't believe it. I shouldn't be shocked anymore, but I am. This thread has totally gotten out of hand. I think the original question or comment has been lost. My thoughts. Patriotism-Fine. Jingoism-Not Fine. And the athletes should be able to celebrate however they see fit, without it getting violent. They will be beating out the top athletes in the world. I would be pretty pysched.

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"This thread is still alive? Someone should kill it."

[This message has been edited by Nubs (edited May 18, 2004).]

Firefox + "dict fascism" = Me finding out that we aren't even close to the dictionary definition of fascism.

We, as Americans, are largely not racist, we do not suppress our economy, nor our press, we do not terrorize to gain respect (unless needed, i.e. Al-Qaeda), and we do not have a central ruler. We are a republic. Look it up sometime. We fit all the qualifications.

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well, compared to the European nations, especially Holland and Denmark, we are fascist.

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Is Wayne Brady going to have to choke a *****?

The steel tariffs were dropped several months ago, and the notion that free trade is about monopolization takes the cake for the stupidest thing said thusfar in this thread.

... Free trade is about competition - it's a monopoly's worst nightmare..I mean..come on..



About half a century ago a man named George Orwell warned about people who diminish the meaning of words by applying them too liberally. You know what one of his examples was? Fascism. Some things never change.



I am willing to bet that you cannot make a compelling case that America even comes close to fitting either definition. Prove me wrong!