Well..I've been thinking lately about Christianity. all of the Old Testament, no problem for me to believe. It happened, and it's all cool. New Testament: all cool. It all happened, no problem believing miracles and such. Problems arise, however, when I reach Jesus' Crucifixion...what was so special about HIS death that HE died for our sins

What was so special about JESUS' death?

Oh, and guys, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSEEEEEEE don't turn this into a flame war.

Zlocista

The fact that he was perfect... and his perfect blood payed for our sins... only a perfect man could have payed the price.

He was pure, sinless, and God in human form.

Yeah Zloc, mainly the obvoius. He was the DIRECT son of God, created to pay for our sins.

Alright..sinless...we're all born with original sin, correct? I want to know why HE wasn't.

"Mary was sinless" ok, that may be, but I don't care YOU CAN'T JUST SAY SOMEONE ISN'T BORN WITH ORIGINAL SIN WHILE EVERYONE ELSE IS. That's like playing a 5 year old's imaginary game where he makes the rules as he plays.

If Mary was born without Original Sin, why?

[edit]OK, Monoxide just told me I look like an *** with this last post. What I mean is why wouldn't Jesus have Original Sin like the rest of Mankind?[edit]

i like to think that he wasnt born with original sin because he wasnt conceived in the normal way (sex) but it was god who made him(like.. directly.. not in the way that "god 'makes' us all"... so im pretty sure god could make him without sin if he wanted.

Because he was born of a virgin? Perhaps the fact that he had no earthly father kept him away from original sin. Everyone has a phsyical father...

Just a thought.

Not one thought of questioning if it actually happened or not?

Echo, I don't question Old Testament, because most of (if not all) it I consider historical fact. Everything about Jesus I completely believe, and the only problem I'm really having with Christianity is BELIEVING Jesus died for us to live eternally.

Nope, this is more of a discussion for Christians, it really isn't a question of if we believe it or not. Because the majority of us who have already posted in this thread I assume, are Christians.

I find it interesting that the ULTIMATE part of Chrstianity is the only part you seem to have a hard time comprehending. I admit it's mind-boggling for all of us to some extent, but if everything else makes relative sense to you (some of which is some pretty deep stuff) why shouldn't this, the cornerstone of the Christian faith? I'm not trying to be mean or anything, it just seems odd to me. Have you ever taken a Bible course before by any chance?

I'm in a Christian school and HAVE BEEN FED THIS STUFF FOR 8 YEARS. I think I understand what's up with it. At my Catechism class, I actually know more than the teachers of my class know, and I'm not lying.

Well..yeah, cornerstone of Christianity, but I still find it hard to actually believe it. Most other things I believe because there's fact, like Jesus living and I DO believe in all His miracles. I just can't bring myself to put all my faith in someone who "died for my sins".

Jesus WAS born with original sin, unlike Mary.

It's the fact that he fought the temptation through his whole life that makes it special.

He was born out of wedlock though.

Interesting. And you're only 12? And Catholic, I assume?

Well, off the top of my head, I don't know quite what to say right now. You seem to be quite sure of the Bible's inerrancy (please say if I've got that wrong), in which case you most likely believe all of Christ's claims to divinity, especially in John. Just Read John Chapter 3. Jesus gets into a major theological discussion with Nicodemus about Jesus' divinity and purpose. John 1 is also very good - figurative and abstract, but good.

It really sounds to me like the question lies more on your level of faith than the Bible at this point in your life. Despite what some people may say, the bible by itself can only take you so far. At 12, you're going to be developing a lot of questions and that's a good thing. You sound like you already have a pretty firm grasp on a lot of religious principles that many struggle with. Consider yourself ahead of the game in this area of your spiritual growth.

If you want cold hard evidence, might I suggest a very good book that I have read called The Case for Christ

If only we still had Religious Discussion forum.

[QUOTE=Cool Matty]Jesus WAS born with original sin, unlike Mary.

It's the fact that he fought the temptation through his whole life that makes it special.[/QUOTE]



Protestants do not believe this. In their logic, if it were possible to resist the temptation of sin, then Jesus's death and resurrectuion would not have been necessary since salvation would depend on a form of works. Protestants believe that salvation comes through grace alone. That is the main thing that separates them from the catholics.

Jesus = God, so it is impossible for Him to have been born with original sin. To say otherwise would be denying the deity of Jesus Christ, as far as a protestant is concerned.

Mary did have original sin, like everyone else.

Dieing for our sins wasnt the big thing there, if he had just died noone would have cared. The ressurection proved that he was who he claimed to be. All the miracles(signs) point to it also. I'd suggest joining a study group of some sort, its helpful.

JESUS WAS A HAXOR

(First off, I'm atheist, before anyone gets on my case)

I don't understand why you believe in the rest of the NT and OT and not in the Crucifixion/Ressurection and the purpose, etc. behind it. So far you haven't made clear the difference that causes you to believe in the formers and not in the latter.

Jesus is mankind's savior. When Jesus lived, he performed miracles to help mankind and taught to propogate its saving. His death and ressurection was another (ultimate) way in which he fulfills his role. This is what the NT says.

So. how come this specific part you don't accept and the others you do, when this part, like pretty much all the other parts, is written in an instructional manner (i.e., without explanation / a reason as to why it is like it is)? (I don't mean this negatively)

See, another thing about Christianity I don't like... Jesus is god's son, so normal people can never really compare to him. It's impossible to become like Jesus.... it would have been so much more impressive, if he had not been the son of god, but a simple mortal like the rest of us.

Christianity. Bah. bah. and bah.

Like i said Jesus hax

He has the source code to the universe, why wouldn't He? :p

I got your flames right here, boy-oh.

if(getThingFlags(source) & 0x8){
  do her}
elseif(getThingFlags(source) & 0x4){
  do other babe}
else{
  do a dude}

Well if he was just a man, nothing.

But if he was more than just a man...

Jesus Christ claimed to be God's Son. If you believe this, then God's Son chosing to allow Himself to die in such a horrible way (look up info on crucifixion, it's quite a painful way to die) is certantly significant, given as God can do whatever the hell (heaven?) He wants, so He could easily have stopped His Son's death.

So that means He chose to die. But why? He says it was for you.

Sure it was for everyone. But the point is it wasn't just everyone impersonally. God knows every facet about you. When Jesus died for you, He knew everything about you. He could very well have been thinking about everyone He was dying for, including you.

But why did He do this, what did He gain? God wants communion with His creation. And He wants His creation to want to commune with Him. In Genesis we see God walking and talking with Adam. After the fall (Adam and Eve eat the apple, etc), that stops except for a few holy men. I'm sure you know "Christ died for our sins" but think a moment about what that actually MEANS. We all deserve to die for our sins... no sin is lesser or greater, according to St. Paul in Romans. But Jesus died for us, so we are free from the punishment -- suffering in hell, separation from God (yes that could very well be suffering in hell, it's interesting to think about), if only we will accept and believe what Christ did.

Jesus was perfect. People are not. Jesus was setting an example of how a person should act in life, tempered with the realization that we will always fall short of His example. So, a Christian should try his or her best to emulate Jesus' example.

Jesus was not perfect. Proof enough of that was when he exploded and flipped tables in the temple, furious of gambling and such. Anger. That is NOT being perfect. Perhaps it only happened once, but that still happened.

She only was a virgin if you don't count anal. It's in the Bible.

Admittedly, it's scribbly, with crayon, and in my handwriting, but it's still technically in the Bible.

o.O

Those people were defiling the temple of God. I wouldn't say you're imperfect for doing what he did. You're not imperfect just for getting angry in a holy sort of way.

There are times in the old testament where God was angry with the Jews for being stupid. And God did a lot more than just flip some tables in the OT.

I'm, a Christian too.
:p :p :p

Yeah, he was "The perfect sacrifice, to end all sacrifices"

Of course it didn't stop sacrifices and more than half today's populace suffers more than ever.

[QUOTE=The Mega-ZZTer]Well if he was just a man, nothing.[/QUOTE]

Say that again, and this time think about what you say.

What is said to have happened to Jesus would be a HELL of a lot more special if he was just a man.

The thing is... it didn't happen. I'm christian, but at least I'm not foolishly blind enough to think all that the bible says is true. Metaphores, exagerations and inventions are all part of this sacred book.

I'm not sacreligious for saying this, because I still believe in greater things and in christianity. But it is obvious a lot of things didn't happen. No matter how much I believe in the christ, I will not believe that he walked on water, or that Mosus (sorry not sure how to spell his name, i only know the translation from french by oral) did not split the red sea in two to open passage for the refugees and followers.

Well, I DO know this, the is something out there...
But humans could only guess what he or it is, so I do belive in God.

I'll be frank, I'm still unsure of the range of my belief. I grew up zealously believing in god. Some events seemed to make me see other things in life. And now there is science. It explains a whole lot of the creation of the universe, and of earth (or any other planet for that matter) and there is hardly anything studied that it does fail to explain. While a lot of it is theorized, a lot of it sounds more senseful than "some omnipotent being pulling the strings from behind the scene".

I think this is a point I'll never fully make up my mind on.

All religions and cults have always believed in a greater being from China's Shiva who runs the earth from its core with her multiple arms, to greece's apollo and zeus, to christian's God. Is it really because there is something greater, or is because humanity just needed something to believe in and explain HOW they were there?

As was said above, Jesus did not commit a sin. He was angry - anger is not a sin. Moneychangers and merchants had changed the House of God into a market place. It was blasphemous on a totally unprecedented level.



The use of science does not prove or disprove the existence of God. It can disprove man's interpretation of the Bible.

Except a mortal couldn't have paid for our sins. Even in an eternity of time we can’t pay for one of our sins. The sin is there, God can't ignore that. Someone has to pay the price, and no one but God could.

So basically, he makes us, we're all set, and everything’s awesome. And then Adam has to go and eat the one fruit in the garden that he wasn't supposed to, and by introducing sin into it, ruins God's creation. So instead of getting rid of us, he becomes human (still God too) and endured the wrath that we would have had to bear. Why didn’t he just chuck us all in hell and start over? No clue, but I'm glad he didn't.





It is impossible to prove anything. You can only logically deduce something if you accept certain pre-suppositions. Unfortunately, those pre-suppositions can't be logically proven. The very idea that logic works is a pre-supposition.

Didn't Eve take the first bite?

That's right wolfy, that kind of anger is called rightous anger. Jesus was perfect, therefore, he made up for all our sins.