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☖ Forums → Discussion Forum → Christianity. Ain't it cool?
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Christianity. Ain't it cool?
2005-11-04, 7:48 AM #41
Erm, I didn't say he commited a sin. I said he wasn't perfect. Anger isn't a sin, but its a flaw. And a flaw randers something not perfect.
Was cheated out of lions by happydud
Was cheated out of marriage by sugarless
2005-11-04, 7:49 AM #42
Originally posted by Wolfy:
Didn't Eve take the first bite?


Yeah, but I think Adam was the sinner because Eve was just decived.

Originally posted by Jepman:
Erm, I didn't say he commited a sin. I said he wasn't perfect. Anger isn't a sin, but its a flaw. And a flaw randers something not perfect.


You're just judging God to your own corrupted version of his own standard. God is the standard. God’s anger is not just an emotion, as our anger tends to be sometimes.

God is not just perfect and sinless, he defines perfect and sinless.
2005-11-04, 7:51 AM #43
Originally posted by Jepman:
Erm, I didn't say he commited a sin. I said he wasn't perfect. Anger isn't a sin, but its a flaw. And a flaw randers something not perfect.


In your eyes, that was a flaw. But the fact was that it was a completely justified reaction, thus - not a flaw. Anger isn't a flaw. Acting incorrectly on that anger is a flaw.
the idiot is the person who follows the idiot and your not following me your insulting me your following the path of a idiot so that makes you the idiot - LC Tusken
2005-11-04, 7:53 AM #44
:rolleyes: Too much preachy crap for me. I'm out of this thread lol.
Was cheated out of lions by happydud
Was cheated out of marriage by sugarless
2005-11-04, 7:55 AM #45
You're not getting the point - anger is not a flaw. You can be angry about genocide. You can be angry about wrongful death. You can be angry about racism. These are not flaws. Going out and killing someone in reaction to this anger is a flaw.
the idiot is the person who follows the idiot and your not following me your insulting me your following the path of a idiot so that makes you the idiot - LC Tusken
2005-11-04, 7:55 AM #46
Well, that's one way to admit that you're wrong. (jepman)
2005-11-04, 7:58 AM #47
I still don't think I'm wrong. lol.

Disgust is one thing, angry to lose control enough to flip tables and **** is another.
Was cheated out of lions by happydud
Was cheated out of marriage by sugarless
2005-11-04, 8:02 AM #48
You're mistaking anger with improper emotional reaction to anger. God had every right to own those money changers. You have every right to delete buggy code in a program you create. His anger did not effect his rational. That is the only time that anger becomes a flaw.
2005-11-04, 8:04 AM #49
Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet:
You're just judging God to your own corrupted version of his own standard.


You yourself are interpreting the Bible in your own, personal way, too. Therefor, you could also be wrong. In fact, it's even possible that nobody ever has interpreted the Bible correctly, if you look at it that way. Therefor, this thread would be pointless. In fact, the Bible would be pointless. And without a Bible, there's no Christian faith left.
2005-11-04, 8:18 AM #50
Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet:
Except a mortal couldn't have paid for our sins. Even in an eternity of time we can’t pay for one of our sins. The sin is there, God can't ignore that. Someone has to pay the price, and no one but God could.


'Pay'? Pay for our sins? Think that over. 'Pay'??!! What is there to pay? It doesn't make sense at all. People do bad things, once they stop doing bad things and do good things, it is good. 'Pay'.... such a human concept. *shakes head*

Quote:
So basically, he makes us, we're all set, and everything’s awesome. And then Adam has to go and eat the one fruit in the garden that he wasn't supposed to, and by introducing sin into it, ruins God's creation. So instead of getting rid of us, he becomes human (still God too) and endured the wrath that we would have had to bear.


Stop taking literally what Genesis says. It's just a simple creation myth that doesn't make sense at all. So, God gives man free will. But there is one thing he cannot do. Yet he/she chooses to do it, and what does God, he punishes the use of this free will by damning Adam's entire offspring for all eternity. As if we are to blame for the sins of our father(s).... it doesn't make sense, worse, it's fascist-like i.m.o. "I AM THE LAW...." yuck.
ORJ / My Level: ORJ Temple Tournament I
2005-11-04, 8:27 AM #51
I'm not talking about my views of the Bible. I'm saying that by definition an omniscient creator would be the definition of good or bad. People assume that some standard for good or bad just sort of is, no matter what you believe. It's not. We think it is, because God has made his creation a certain way, and we can tell when it’s being twisted. A God would have to be the definition of good and bad. Everything that happens or exists, except God, has a cause. God does not need a cause because he is perfect in and of himself. If he were not, he would not be a God, he would be only something “very powerful”.
2005-11-04, 8:29 AM #52
Originally posted by ORJ_JoS:
Stop taking literally what Genesis says. It's just a simple creation myth that doesn't make sense at all.


PLEASE explain. I'd like to hear your view on this.
2005-11-04, 8:29 AM #53
Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet:
I'm not talking about my views of the Bible. I'm saying that by definition an omniscient creator would be the definition of good or bad. People assume that some standard for good or bad just sort of is, no matter what you believe. It's not. We think it is, because God has made his creation a certain way, and we can tell when it’s being twisted. A God would have to be the definition of good and bad. Everything that happens or exists, except God, has a cause. God does not need a cause because he is perfect in and of himself. If he were not, he would not be a God, he would be only something “very powerful”.


No, that's what you think God is, judging by what you read in the Bible.
2005-11-04, 8:35 AM #54
Quote:
'Pay'? Pay for our sins? Think that over. 'Pay'??!! What is there to pay? It doesn't make sense at all. People do bad things, once they stop doing bad things and do good things, it is good. 'Pay'.... such a human concept. *shakes head*


We don’t do good things. We only live up to the standard. When we fall below the standard, there is sin. God cannot ignore the sin. It is there. It must somehow be made right.

Quote:
Stop taking literally what Genesis says. It's just a simple creation myth that doesn't make sense at all. So, God gives man free will. But there is one thing he cannot do. Yet he/she chooses to do it, and what does God, he punishes the use of this free will by damning Adam's entire offspring for all eternity. As if we are to blame for the sins of our father(s).... it doesn't make sense, worse, it's fascist-like i.m.o. "I AM THE LAW...." yuck.[/quote[

That’s a red herring. The whole argument is based on the presupposition that there is a God. You’re starting a whole new argument, and you’re just speculating as to why God does the things he does.


Gothicx, I'm just defining what a God would have to be. It philosphy, not the Bible. I'm not even saying what He is. I'm just saying that if a being is this, it is a God, if not, it is not a God, it's just another powerfull being.
2005-11-04, 8:44 AM #55
Man I'm telling you Obi, drop the pants and get on the priest dress. lol
Was cheated out of lions by happydud
Was cheated out of marriage by sugarless
2005-11-04, 8:46 AM #56
[QUOTE=Murc XIII]PLEASE explain. I'd like to hear your view on this.[/QUOTE]

What's the need for explanation. The bible borrowed liberally from other creation myths, in genesis as well. Every ancient creation myth does just that (and yes, the bible/genesis is not different or better.).

Originally posted by MysteryProf:
Basically, most mythology of the Near East is going to have some relevance here. I'd check out the Sumerians, who also influenced Hittite, Canaanite, and Akkadian literature. (Just for extra info, the Akkadian language was used all over Palestine in the second millenium BCE.)

Common themes include the Tree of Life, the Tree of Knowledge, the Serpent, disobedience, and immortality, but they're all combined in differing ways in different versions. The Egyptian Book of the Dead mentions that the serpent is "wavering by turns between loving and hating the gods." Also try the Sumerian "Garden of Paradise" story or "The Land of Dilmun." Stories can probably be found indirectly by doing searches based on names of deities: try Ninhursag and Enki.

(http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.phpt=84067&highlight=creation+myths+genesis)

You should look into different flood accounts as well: some formulas and descriptions are almost exactly the same as earlier myths, to explain the exact same thing no less.
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2005-11-04, 8:47 AM #57
Perhaps to explain some huge natural disaster many thousands of years ago?
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2005-11-04, 8:55 AM #58
Originally posted by Emon:
Perhaps to explain some huge natural disaster many thousands of years ago?


No... for example, in Egyptian mythology, the annual Nile flood, central in the life of the Egyptians, signified the washing away of the old and fertilizing the banks of the Nile for new life. Which is exactly the same as the particular bible flood myth.
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2005-11-04, 9:02 AM #59
You know, if the earth were totally flat it'd be completely under water.

Originally posted by Jepman:
Man I'm telling you Obi, drop the pants and get on the priest dress. lol



Ahh the wonderfull and exciting world of the church leadership debate. :D
2005-11-04, 9:07 AM #60
Sometimes I just don't know how to answer your questions, I don't know how to prove to you guys that Jesus did exist, and he was who he said he was... Alas..
It isnt easy telling others about Christ and I just don't know what to say sometimes...

http://www.meaning-of-life.info/?Source=ad
2005-11-04, 9:29 AM #61
Originally posted by Pagewizard_YKS:
Mary did have original sin, like everyone else.


No, Mary did not have original sin.

Hence, the feast of the Immaculate Conception.
May the mass times acceleration be with you.
2005-11-04, 9:40 AM #62
Originally posted by Jepman:
Jesus was not perfect. Proof enough of that was when he exploded and flipped tables in the temple, furious of gambling and such. Anger. That is NOT being perfect. Perhaps it only happened once, but that still happened.


No... that's not very different from the 1000 times God wanted to just kill Israel when they angered him. Jesus' anger was righteous anger, and it inspired him to action to fix the problem, in this case. You are confusing anger, which is not a sin, with the action that leads from anger, which is usually sin. Such as punching someone in the face who makes us mad.

Originally posted by ORJ_JoS:
Say that again, and this time think about what you say.

What is said to have happened to Jesus would be a HELL of a lot more special if he was just a man.


Read my post again, and this time read more than the first line.

2005-11-04, 10:18 AM #63
Wow, OK. Very interesting thread.

For the record, I’m a Christian, and I believe I am going to Heaven not because of anything I did, but because what Jesus did on the cross. I ask for forgiveness, I believe in Him, I give my life to him, I am saved. No more, no less.

We all sin. Period. Even Mary sineed, only Jesus did not, since he is God and god is perfect.

Logical?

Let’s just say this, Christianity is like computer problems: It defies all logic, it sometimes doesn’t even make sense, but somehow it’s right in the end, even if you do not understand how it happened.

Just my point of view.



-KnightRider2000
The right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world.

-G Man
2005-11-04, 10:32 AM #64
Originally posted by darthslaw:
Hence, the feast of the Immaculate Conception.


Actually, some theorize that men pass on the original sin, so...
the idiot is the person who follows the idiot and your not following me your insulting me your following the path of a idiot so that makes you the idiot - LC Tusken
2005-11-04, 11:16 AM #65
^^ Hear that, ladies? No more complaining about how hard childbirth is, 'cuz we men have the long-term eternal agony :p :p :p
May the mass times acceleration be with you.
2005-11-04, 11:35 AM #66
[QUOTE=Murc XIII]PLEASE explain. I'd like to hear your view on this.[/QUOTE]

I did explain, just read the rest.

And to Obi:

I'm not making assumptions as to why god does what. I'm just telling the story like it is in the bible. And I say it's just a bunch of crap that was made up by some tribesman ages ago because they needed a holy book to base their authority on.
ORJ / My Level: ORJ Temple Tournament I
2005-11-04, 11:45 AM #67
Tribes-man? It was written at ~20 AD. Plus, flamebait.
2005-11-04, 11:46 AM #68
It was just collected then. And not even that early, around 60-200 in fact.
Star Wars: TODOA | DXN - Deus Ex: Nihilum
2005-11-04, 11:49 AM #69
Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet:
Tribes-man? It was written at ~20 AD.


Not the OT.
ORJ / My Level: ORJ Temple Tournament I
2005-11-04, 12:54 PM #70
Well, in the end, I think we all agree that Obi-wan > Jesus.

Right? :o
Democracy: rule by the stupid
2005-11-04, 1:35 PM #71
Originally posted by Jepman:
All religions and cults have always believed in a greater being from China's Shiva who runs the earth from its core with her multiple arms


Why did you just entirely make that up? You obviously don't know the first thing about China, Shaiva or Shaivism.
:master::master::master:
2005-11-04, 1:42 PM #72
[QUOTE=Kieran Horn]Well, in the end, I think we all agree that Obi-wan > Jesus.

Right? :o[/QUOTE]

rofl, yeah
ORJ / My Level: ORJ Temple Tournament I
2005-11-04, 2:13 PM #73
This thread is bound for failure.

>: )
2005-11-04, 2:32 PM #74
God. You're trying to add logic to religion. Haha. Makes kitty sad.
幻術
2005-11-04, 3:00 PM #75
Originally posted by Jepman:
All religions and cults have always believed in a greater being from China's Shiva who runs the earth from its core with her multiple arms, to greece's apollo and zeus, to christian's God. Is it really because there is something greater, or is because humanity just needed something to believe in and explain HOW they were there?


I like to look at this way. In order for hunger to exist, food must exist. In order for thirst to exist, water must exist. Our inherant need for food and drink would not exist if food and water were not present in this world.
So likewise, would not our need to explain a greater force that created the universe exist because of the presence of a greater force in the universe?

food for thought...
yay for not posting much ever
2005-11-04, 4:24 PM #76
Originally posted by KnightRider2000:
Logical?

Let’s just say this, Christianity is like computer problems: It defies all logic, it sometimes doesn’t even make sense, but somehow it’s right in the end, even if you do not understand how it happened.

Just my point of view.


"Somehow it's right in the end" shouldn't be suitable answer. A computer program doesn't defy logic at all. It is all logical all the time, if one takes a look deep inside. It is impossible for a program to work with nothing more than unexplainable occurences or aspects.
SnailIracing:n(500tpostshpereline)pants
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2005-11-04, 4:32 PM #77
Originally posted by Martin_W:
I like to look at this way. In order for hunger to exist, food must exist. In order for thirst to exist, water must exist. Our inherant need for food and drink would not exist if food and water were not present in this world.
So likewise, would not our need to explain a greater force that created the universe exist because of the presence of a greater force in the universe?

food for thought...

*blinks* Okay, first off, that's some mighty fine circular reasoning you got going there. Also, food and water are concrete, objective, and constant. Religion is abstract, subjective, and sporadic.
Democracy: rule by the stupid
2005-11-04, 10:06 PM #78
[QUOTE=Kieran Horn]Well, in the end, I think we all agree that Obi-wan > Jesus.

Right? :o[/QUOTE]

Bah! Qui-Gon IS Jesus!!!
May the mass times acceleration be with you.
2005-11-05, 8:42 AM #79
I didn't read much of this thread, so I might repeat stuff.
Originally posted by Zloc_Vergo:
Alright..sinless...we're all born with original sin, correct? I want to know why HE wasn't.
No, "original sin" is a term that seems to get confused. It means we're born with the nature to sin, not that we're born with sin.
In Romans 6:23 says the wages of sin is death. You see plenty of passages in the old testament to back it up as well. Nearly every law had death as a penalty. There is no mention of everlasting life in the old testament (except for Daniel 12:2, which appears to be a prophecy). Therefore, if you sinned, you paid with your life completely, including your spiritual life. If there was one who didn't sin, he could live and pay for the life of another. Or perhaps several. However, there was never such a man. (Romans 3:10, Psalm 14)
Therefore, it would not be possible for a mere man to redeem himself, because no man can be fully righteous. It was not just Jesus's death that redeemed us, but his life as well.
Catloaf, meet mouseloaf.
My music
2005-11-05, 8:47 AM #80
Originally posted by ORJ_JoS:
Stop taking literally what Genesis says. It's just a simple creation myth that doesn't make sense at all. So, God gives man free will. But there is one thing he cannot do. Yet he/she chooses to do it, and what does God, he punishes the use of this free will by damning Adam's entire offspring for all eternity. As if we are to blame for the sins of our father(s).... it doesn't make sense, worse, it's fascist-like i.m.o. "I AM THE LAW...." yuck.

It doesn't make sense to you because you choose to interpret it in a insensible way.

There CANNOT be free will without choice. THAT is why God said not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil instead of removing it. Would you want someone to love you because there was no choice, or because they wanted to love you.

That's the point of the Garden of Eden story.
Catloaf, meet mouseloaf.
My music
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