Oh, and I'm not looking for rewards, in fact that's nowhere near the point - I'm (I suppose) debunking the idea that "God did it" is a worthwhile explanation of any event.

Also some branches of Christianity preach predestination, double predestination and various other fatalistic ways of thinking, which quite frankly I don't buy into. I make my decisions as when they come to me. My life has not been pre-planned.

I think that's probably a good place to stop explaning myself. If I've missed anything out it will most likely ended up quoted a few lines down later...

(Apologies for multiple posts, it's the only way I can get long messages up without the boards timing out!)

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If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards.

I didn't say that.
No. If God exists, people can still choose not to worship him. It's like saying you have to obey the law because there is one - people will still go their own way.

I've yet to see anyone give a vaguely interesting reason for why they are Christian and not Muslim.

My problem is he is getting waaaaay to riled up about this.

It's the same reason why people are Jews instead of Chrisitans and Christians instead of Mormons. The former doesn't believe that anything new has happened while the latter does.

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The sooner you realize I'm right the better off you will be.

[This message has been edited by Kieran Horn (edited May 31, 2004).]

Tenshu, I've seen plenty of religious fanatics in my time, but you're worse than all of them.

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Have a good one,
Freelancer

Oh, and if you want my opinion, all (major) religions stem from the same source (not those created by Joe Shmoe in his basement. I mean like Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, etc). Most religions have many common denominators of belief, and I think it's because God revealed himself and his religion to the different areas of the world, and each one fell away somewhat from the pure religion.

For example, I think it's a major possibility that God DID reveal himself to Muhammed, and Muhammed was God's prophet in that part of the world, and I'm saying this as a Christian. Do you think God is partial, and that he would only have a select people in a tight geographical area? If you believe in all the prohpets of the Old Testament, why in the world couldn't there be prophets in other parts of the world also?? How else is god going to get heard, besides his servants the prophets revealing it? No, god isn't partial and selective like that, IMO. But I also think that this lack of partiality extends beyond death, and those who weren't convinced in this life will have the opportunity to accept him and his teachings in the afterlife as well. It's only fair.

Because of this, I think every religion has good principles and truths, though some might be closer than others.. It's the only way to explain why God is so socially accepted. It's not the same thing to bring up god as it is to bring up other weird stuff because God is a deep, embedded tradition among most peoples of the earth. Now THAT is logic. Not flaming those who believe in god because they're no different than people who believe other "irrational" things.

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Have a good one,
Freelancer

[This message has been edited by Freelancer (edited May 31, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Freelancer (edited May 31, 2004).]

It's funny how everyone ignored my two posts...

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<]-[ellequin> Nothing is quite as satisfying as placing a .177 lead pellet in between the eyes of a cat.
<]-[ellequin> I think I will leave it's corpse there, to warn all the other cats to keep out of my hibiscus patch

Live on, Adam.

And that's the difference between religious-types and atheists. That is THE VERY BEST REASON in the entire UNIVERSE not to believe in something (according to my views). Obviously it isn't according to yours. Now if only we could discover why that difference exists, we'd have us a good old fashioned explanation.

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WOOSH|-----@%

I didn't

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The sooner you realize I'm right the better off you will be.

I quite enjoyed the idea of someone saying, "Many Gods, don't be ridiculous..! (Who can live at that speed?)"

Then saying two minutes later "But one God, that's not only plausible, it's the way it is!"

It is a very funny contradiction

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If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards.

They all ignored the facts I gave... why? Because it's not something you can argue about, because it disproves, quite well, ANY religious argument you can have.

JediKirby

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<]-[ellequin> Nothing is quite as satisfying as placing a .177 lead pellet in between the eyes of a cat.
<]-[ellequin> I think I will leave it's corpse there, to warn all the other cats to keep out of my hibiscus patch

Live on, Adam.

I dont beleive in god, cause i dont beleive that there is a supreme being that controls everyone's fate with an invisible hand. People are in full control of their lives.

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PWoT, NG, EW: The best sites on the net.

-@%

Don't jump the gun, Tenshu. Did I address you anywhere in that post or do I have to rephrase to show my intentions?

Edit - Also, I'd appreciate it if you did not address me as "homeboy."

[This message has been edited by Morfildor (edited May 31, 2004).]

So why did God only reveal himself to prophets in the Middle-East? It'd make a lot more sense to scatter them across the place, but they were all from that same region.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam all believe in the same God, only with different prophets.
Sikhism may or may not believe in that same God, I'm not quite sure.
Hinduism is a completely different kettle of fish, and has little to do with the Abrahamic religions, other than the conflict with Muslims creating Sikhism.

But Islam does specifically refer to the Christians, and how they got it wrong (they worshipped Jesus Christ as a false God). The Qu'ran is the updated word of God, Holy Book version 3.0. God didn't tell the Jews part of His message, the Christians another part, and the Muslims a third part, and they all have a little bit of God.. No. There may be elements that God didn't bother repeating to Muhammed, as the Christians actually got some things right, but these are probably just small details. The Qu'ran over-rides the Bible, which in turn over-rides the Torah. There may be things that the Qu'ran simply doesn't talk about at all, for which you'd need to see the Bible, but when they contradict (which they do more often than not), the Qu'ran takes priority.
If you are to believe in one God, then that is the line of thought you should follow.

But that is a pretty big 'if'.

[This message has been edited by Mort-Hog (edited May 31, 2004).]

Most of you are so bad at proving your point.

(not saying i'm any better )

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/fluffle

I think that's true for 99.9% of massassi.

Happy to be 0.1% of Massassi then!

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If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards.

You wanna back that up, Martyn?



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Map-Review | My Portfolio | The Matrix: Unplugged

I shall back that up with a frightening flurry of statistics, quotes from other people in the thread, quotes from uncited works of respected "scientists" and "theologians" and with a small army of minions. Who are all left handed.

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If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards.

I'm left handed! Can I be a minion?

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Map-Review | My Portfolio | The Matrix: Unplugged

Not really. Creation is vague. How about Genesis 1:3 - "And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light." At that point, there was no celestial body created to produce the light. Big Bang perhaps? Not until verse 14 were celestial bodies created.
Genesis 1:2 - "The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters." I think the word "form" is interesting, as it implies that God was going to use pre-existing matter to form the earth, which would not disagree with the Big Bang.
Genesis 1:11 - "And God said, "Let the earth put forth vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, upon the earth." And it was so." So that seems to agree with origin theories, that state life came from materials on the earth. Verse 24 seems to suggest the same - "And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds." And it was so."
In Chapter 2, verse 6, it seems to suggest the first cycle of precipitation: " but a mist went UP from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground--"
I could probably go on, but I won't bore you to death with it. Which is irrelevant, because the Bible does not in any way suggest heliocentric theory or geocentric theory. It was adopted by the Catholic church. Few are saved? I don't think it says that. Also keep in mind that if John saw things of the future some 2000+ years before they happen, he's not going to be likely able to describe it all too well. I wasn't Christian when I joined a worship team. Time progressed, and I kept being drawn away from my own purposes, and into those of God. I could feel Him during worship, when I, in fact, was not even attending the services to worship, or have anything to do with God. There have been instances when the Spirit of God has moved and left people unable to speak when they attempted to, causing them to stutter immensely. People in worship end up screaming, yelling, dancing, etc. because they feel the presence of God. I've seen my own pastor start having the usual stomach-clenching convulsions that I've only seen him do once. There was an instance when the youth were in the back of the church praying on a Wednesday night and just begin yelling out for more of God. (Our youth are not typically known for this. They don't generally seem to get to involved in worship-like activities.) I've seen an athiest/anarchist friend of mine just start crying at a youth retreat because he felt God move. I've seen a prophet give accurate details of the lives random people in my church he walked up to.
...And so on.
It is for reasons like these that I am Christian.
I'm sure the athiest response to these will be to simply call me a liar.
It's not about religion at all. It's a logical fallacy, plain and simple. Christianity still has prophets.

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Genesis 22:2-5 - And God said unto Abraham "You must kill your son, Isaac." And Abraham said "What? I can't hear you! You'll have to speak into the microphone." And God said "Check, check, check, check. Jerry, can you pull the high end out. I'm getting some hiss up here."
Valuable Life Lesson: Frog + Potato Gun = Blindness
Catalog of Electronic Components - Complete IC data sheets
National Electrical Code® (NEC®) Online - Legal requirements for wiring projects.

[This message has been edited by DogSRoOL (edited May 31, 2004).]

No. Today people die of old age at anywhere between 80 and 100 years of age. The average life expectancy of a man is 82 years old. A woman being 6-7 years more. Lack of disease is a poor argument to explain such massive life spans, when undoubtedly there would have been lack of hygiene, lack of medical knowledge, and lack of sanitary living conditions. Need I remind you that the average life span of a man 2000 years ago was 22, and only an average of 44 at the turn of the 20th century.



No. I was suggesting that if God indeed did create the universe, he created a hell of a lot of useless stuff around the place. From my point of view, to suggest that one supreme being created everything is merely a way of hiding from the truth that it all just happened by chance, which is what I obesrve most religious folk to never let slide. As far as my experience goes, no Christian I've ever met will admit to anything just being a random occurance. Everything is a sign from someone. I do understand that it's probably a large part of your beliefs, but I honestly think that there is a large number of followers, of any religion, that can't admit to things happening by chance.

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«»The Scratchware Manifesto
-¬thoughts from beyond observance

[This message has been edited by Chikyu-Jin (edited May 31, 2004).]