Oh come on, what's wrong with stormtroopers being clones!? Ofcourse they're clones. Maybe not all of them Jango clones by the time of ANH, but still. Lucas' intention was always for the stromtroopers to be clones. We knew that even before the prequels were made! Also:

"Aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper.?" - Leia to Luke in the stormie uniform - meaning they all have the same length.

And, in Battlefront II, the 501st legion of clonetroopers becomes a stormtrooper legion. It's all very obvious. It's just that after 20 years they're probably using a lot more clone templates than just Jango's.

1: It's stupid, and messes up a good portion of the EU. And it just doesn't add up (see my earlier post)

2: Since when did we know they were all clones before the prequels? Lucas never said that until after AotC was released, and even still he continues to change his mind about it. And I'd even dare to say that his comments aren't canon, since they havn't been written or filmed. Audio commentaries don't count.

3: Mark Hamill was short. Luke Skywalker is short. Most stormtroopers are not short. Leia's comment simply means she was making fun of what she thought was a vertically challenged stormtrooper. It is not proof that all stormtroopers are clones.

4: Battlefront II absolutely butchers canon, and is therefore void, continuity-wise.

5: Yes, there were more clone templates than just Jango, grown on planets other than Kamino. But, as I said before, to have them continue to be grown by the time of ANH just doesn't add up. Cloning is expensive, and it takes ten years to grow soldiers, who can then only serve for another ten years before needing to be replaced. The Empire is already infamous for its budget cuts (again, TIE-fighters anyone?). Why would the Empire spend billions of credits for an army that's going to take ten years to grow and train, and then wear out in another 10 years, forcing them to spend billions more for replacements, especially when they can just recruit/draft the citizens of the planets that they control (more than half the galaxy at this point), train them for less than five years (hell, probably less than two), for a fraction of the cost, for soldiers that will live and serve twice as long as clones?

They wouldn't.

Not to mention the stormtroopers having different voices... if he wanted Stormtroopers to be clones from the get-go he'd have them all dubbed by one guy even back then. <.<;; Also for being such poor marksmen I find the idea of them being random recruits from random corners of the galaxy to be far more, well, acceptable. XD

As an aside, I'm pretty sure that the Clones were another ploy by Palpatine to stage his own little war where he controlled both sides, the Trade Federation with perfectly expandable droids on one side, and the Republic with perfectly expandable clones on the other. So once he finished playing chess against himself he probably would've preferred a somewhat cheaper army rather than ordering batch after batch of Jango clones for two decades... and there's the fact that the imperial officers are clearly not clones, and I'm sure that most of them worked their way up the ranks rather than being rewarded the relatively cushy officer position off the bat.

now you're just picking and choosing what EU you want to believe, and battlefront2 goes along with the actual story much better than many other EU stories.



hmm storm troopers seem to all have the same generic voice, perhaps different clone model?



?? yes they do, george lucas wrote star wars, it is his story, he can tell it the way he wants, and when he comments on his own story, it does indeed count.

This just in.

Mark Twain, back from the grave, has decided that Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn were gay lovers. And instead of returning to their home town after their death ran off to prance in the woods.

You are all to accept this new re-telling of the syory.

Also, Becky Thatcher had a penis.

Hardly. Battlefront II contradicts a number of other, published sources, and not only does it contradict them, but it doesn't make sense with its contradictions. Namely, it places the 501st at every major battle during the Clone Wars, when that is hardly the case. Hell, it has them at Geonosis, before the 501st were even grown.

Books and comics go through a rigorous process of cross-checking with people at Lucasfilm before they're allowed to be published, but that means every published piece of work is considered official canon supported by Lucas himself.

Videogames do not go through this same process.

Some games, such as the Dark Forces series, have been supported by other pieces of work, such as novels and comics written about them. Likewise with Republic Commando. Battlefront II, however, contradicts several written sources, does not fit in with official continuity, and will not, I garuntee you, be picked up by other sources in the future. It is, therefore, not canon.




You are right to an extent. However, there is a technicality, in that according to the continuity process that Lucasfilm has set up (as with the comics and books, that I mentioned above), anything that is not published in a canonical story, is not canonical. Author's can't say something unofficially, for example, and have it be canon, because it wasn't published in their story.

Technically, this would apply to Lucas as well, but that's more of a touchy subject, since, as you said, it's his story.

I'm not sure where some of you get the idea that Lucas wasn't considering clones until Episode 2. You know, in ANH, Obi-Wan talks about the Clone[/b] Wars to Luke... no?

That was a throw-away line that sounded good. Lucas had no idea what he was talking about.

I think they mean stormtroopers being clones, not clones being clones.

He's referring to someone's comment about how "George Lucas didn't think about clones until episode 2"

That's just hilarious. EU is what messes things up, not the other way round. And then you continue to say that what Lucas says isn't canon... You're mixing up some things here.

Anyway, we knew before the prequels were made because way back in the eighties Lucas revealed in several interviews some stuff about prequel material, simply to explain the movies he was making back then. We knew about Darth Vader turning on his master Obiwan and getting 'thrown into a volcano' as a result of this. Just like that, it's always been known that the stormtroopers were a result of the clonewars.

Well, for the same matter you can turn the tables around and say that because he clearly called them the "Clone wars" that they were the only armed conflict in recent history in which clones were used.

And you know this being George Lucas' brain?

So..What's EU? I feel like I'm missing half this argument when I don't know what EU is.

Extend Universe: Books, Video Games, Comics, etc. Basically, anything that isn't the movies.

If it's referring to my earlier post, I meant that Lucas didn't say anything about clonetroopers being stormtroopers until AotC, not that Lucas never said anything about clones. I might not have made that clear before, so my apologies. (and if it's not referring to my post... screw you :p)



First of all, BF2 is EU too. So, by trying to defend it, you just admitted that it's messed up.

Second of all, as I clearly said in my second post, every published work of the EU is official canon, supported 100% by Lucasfilm itself, reviewed by a board of continuity people chosen by Lucas himself to make decisions like these on his behalf. It is, 100%, officially and undeniably, Star Wars canon. Every book and comic, like it or not, is official Star Wars.

The plotlines of videogames that do not have any other published work to back them up (that is, games like Battlefront 2 that are not mentioned/supported by the movies, books, or comics, but excluding games like the Dark Forces and Republic Commando series, as both have had novels written about them), are NOT canon, because they do not undergo the same cross-checking process by the continuity board, and therefore, cannot be considered "Official Star Wars" continuity unless otherwise stated by said board. That means, Battlefront 2's story, while entertaining, is not canon. Not only that, but it contradicts other published, official sources. So it's an "unofficial" story contradicting the official stories. Therefore, not canon.

And on your second point, you're twisting my words. I said that things that Lucas says personally, which are not included or referenced in the films or other officially published work, could be considered not-canon, according to how Star Wars continuity works (as I've already explained twice.) Granted, he might be an exception, but I don't particularly see why he would be any different in that regard than other authors.



But Lucas never said that the OT Stormtroopers were clones until AotC. Infact, as mentioned before, since the "Clone Wars" were referred to as such, that they were the only wars to have been fought with clones, and since they were referred to in the past tense, that the current war with the Rebellion was not being fought with clones.

You can't just claim that he said it all along, when... he never said it until AotC. If you want to disagree, find me an interview or article, pre-AotC, where Lucas specifically says that the Stormtroopers are clones.

Lucas explains the differences of stormtroopers in BF2. It was mentioned earlier, but I'll go more in depth. Basically what happened is that a new batch of clones had corrupted genes(intentionally I believe) and fought against the Empire. The veteran clones destroyed them and as a precaution the Emperor now used multiple specimens in which to clone troops so such a large number wouldn't be so corruptable anymore. Due to indications in other games though, non-clones may have been allowed into the stormtrooper corps later on.

As for canonization.....
Really people, things that are done in Lucas' name trump(lore-wise anyway) anything another writer does and it should be this way. Otherwise Star Wars lore would be ****ed since there would be no standard. You don't like something about a major part of the story universe Lucas did or something someone else did to a major part of the story univsere and he gave the rubber stamp to? Tough ****, create your own story universe. He built the sandbox and you get to play with the sand in it, not modify the sandbox whenever you want to. You aren't the one who made it.

Welcome to the world of bad analogies. Not only are you trying to compare coming back from the dead to a still quite alive Lucas, but you are trying to compare a long-time classic to a story universe that can never be finished. Try again.

[QUOTE=Kieran Horn]Lucas explains the differences of stormtroopers in BF2. It was mentioned earlier, but I'll go more in depth. Basically what happened is that a new batch of clones had corrupted genes(intentionally I believe) and fought against the Empire. The veteran clones destroyed them and as a precaution the Emperor now used multiple specimens in which to clone troops so such a large number wouldn't be so corruptable anymore. Due to indications in other games though, non-clones may have been allowed into the stormtrooper corps later on.
[/quote]

Lucas did not describe anything in BF2, because as far as I'm aware, Lucas was not involved with BF2 at all.




You realize that this is exactly what I'm saying?

Every book and comic has his "rubber stamp" on it, as you just described. Every book and comic is done "in Lucas' name", as a new book or comic has to be approved by the continuity guys at Lucasfilm, that Lucas picked to represent him. Videogames do not, and so Battlefront II was not, and is therefore trumped by the more official sources.

Like I said, it was done in his name. Any story told by his company is considered his. Of course, when he dies, then things could become problematic.

My post wasn't meant directly at you. It was a general statement. Anyway, do you not see the obvious logical error in saying "anything some random person writes can be canonized by people that work for Lucas, but things that people who work for Lucas write can't be canon"? Do you honestly think Lucas would allow his companies to make things that he didn't ultimately approve of? Also, video games are stories. And NOTHING is more official than what comes from Lucas' own mouthpiece. The company is in essence just an extention of Lucas and by making it he gives consent to what they produce, especially since he can stop anything he doesn't like if he would so choose to.

[QUOTE=Kieran Horn]Like I said, it was done in his name. Any story told by his company is considered his. Of course, when he dies, then things could become problematic.

My post wasn't meant directly at you. It was a general statement. Anyway, do you not see the obvious logical error in saying "anything some random person writes can be canonized by people that work for Lucas, but things that people who work for Lucas write can't be canon"? Do you honestly think Lucas would allow his companies to make things that he didn't ultimately approve of? Also, video games are stories. And NOTHING is more official than what comes from Lucas' own mouthpiece.[/QUOTE]


EU Authors are not "random people". They are individually selected and commissioned by Lucasfilm and Del Rey, and their work is cross-checked and looked over by the official continuity guys more than any game is. I will also note, that every Star Wars author was already a published, succesful author prior to being hired by LFL and Del Rey. In fact, it's a requirement; You can't just ask LFL to let you write for Star Wars. You get in by invitation only, and only published sci-fi authors are 'invited'. The only stuff that gets written in novel and comic format is stuff that LFL and Del Rey specifically requested and authorized.

The stories for videogames are not. LucasArts is mostly independant of LucasFilm, so LEC's games don't go through the same process. The writer for BF2's story, Michael Stemml, is a game designer who was already working with LEC, and he is not a published author. In fact, his profile on the LEC website mentions absolutely nothing about writing (http://www.lucasarts.com/20th/profiles_michael.htm see for yourself).

Books and comics go through a rigorous process before they're officially approved. Videogame storylines do not. Everything produced by LFL and Del Rey is deliberate, has been checked, authorized, and approved as official continuity. Videogames aren't.

And BF2 was created by Pandemic, not LEC.

I'd discount quite a few of the comics, as they blatently contradict the movies to a point where no nerd could defend it.

[QUOTE=Kieran Horn]
Welcome to the world of bad analogies. Not only are you trying to compare coming back from the dead to a still quite alive Lucas, but you are trying to compare a long-time classic to a story universe that can never be finished. Try again.[/QUOTE]

What I was aiming to point to, is that this is going to be a hot topic long after fatboy dies.

Especially when his jar jar conjuring child decides it'd be awesome if the emperor would spray candy instead of lightning.

Okay, granted. Specifically, the old Marvel series do that a lot. But most (if not all) of it has been retconned by newer sources (aka, new books/comics rewriting the contradictions so that they keep the original story intact, but remove the contradictions. A good example is the whole Boba Fett/Jaster Mereel thing from Tales of the Bounty Hunters, which was written before AoTC, has since been rewritten to keep the original story intact, but makes it fit more with continuity and keeps it from contradicting the new trilogy.), so that's an issue that has been (mostly) resolved.

hmm id like to see such an interview, have a link by any chance?




you should read some of the VERY old ones, you would not concider them cannon

I'm not talking about what I, personally, consider canon. I'm talking about what is OFFICIAL.

And I already cleared up the comic issue.

[QUOTE=Timothy Zahn]CURSE YOU GEORGE LUCAAAAASSSSSSSSS[/QUOTE]

No way sir. None of it is crosschecked with Lucasarts. They can ask about stuff if they want, that's all. I've heard it explain by several EU authors. Lucas' involvement doesn't go any further than a simple 'Don't kill off ...' list of names.

Let's get this straight because you are greatly mistaken:

None of the EU is canon. None of it. Period. Only the movies and what George says about them. Including the contradictions therein. (So indeed, I shouldn't have brought up Battlefront II - sorry)

And Lucas was'nt just dropping a throwaway line in ANH about the clonewars. Like I said above, back in the eighties he explained several times about the clonewars and the stormtroopers being a result of them. Don't just say something like that, because it isn't true. The plan was ALWAYS for the stormtroopers to be clones, we've known that for over 20 years now. Live with it.

I have one such interview on paper even. In an old Star wars magazine that appeared back in the time that they were shooting RotJ. I'll have to see if I can dig it up.

Not an interview, but in the ROTJ-novelisation (sp?) Obi-Wan tells Luke a bit more about Anakin Skywalker and how he fell into lava or something along the lines.
Heh, he also said, that Owen was Obi-Wan's brother.

And on the subject of canon, there once was an Ask The Jedi Council article on starwars.com that stated clearly that the movies and only the movies are canon.
It's a shame, that they deleted that section of the website. I liked it a lot.

In my opinion, when one is discussing something from the movies he should only use the movies as sources and other sources merely for speculation. Never as fact.

Sorry, but you're completely wrong. I've been at a number of panels where the people at Lucasfilm and Del Rey themselves explained, in detail, the process that new books go through before being released. Everything that I've said in this thread is just repeating what the people at Lucasfilm said themselves, and I think I'll trust their word on this more than yours.


And allow me to clarify; every piece of EU is 100% canon until otherwise contradicted by the movies. Since, however, whatever EU that the movies have contradicted has long since been corrected, it's a moot point. And I'm sorry, since it never says in the movies that the Stormtroopers of the original trilogy are all clones, that has not been contradicted. And since Lucas' comments have not been illustrated in canon sources, they cannot be taken as canon either. If Lucas were to release a 7th movie that clearly stated that all OT stormtroopers are, in fact, clones, I would stop arguing with you. But he hasn't, which means that, while it may be his intention that they are, it's not canon until it appears in the form of a film or written material.





As I said before, prove to me that Lucas explicitly said, before AotC, that all stormtroopers were clones.

... but george lucas is the creater of Star Wars, this is his story, so if he says something is so, then it is, he has said in interviews before "This is my story" and it is


also he did have the backstory in mind atleast since he made episode 5, which is why he made it 4-6 instead of 1-3 he has said that also (since there was debate about this subject)

id love to see that

But technically it's not canon until it's produced in a Star Wars setting in the form of a film, novel, comic, or shortstory.

A mere technicality, yes, but it's true nonetheless.

But from that reasoning even a novel sized fanfiction can be canon. XD

Anyhow, even if it would turn out to be canon I'd still much prefer it if the Stormtroopers that we see in the original trilogy aren't clones. For one thing they have different height and voices. And then there's the deal about the imperial officers while AotC and RotS seem to indicate that entire capital ships could've been manned solely by clones. Heck, even at the end of RotS you already see the difference on the bridge of that Star Destroyer. XD

But hey, that's the joy about Star Wars. =D Several aspects are open to interpretation, and everyone seems to remember and discard their own certain bits, movies or EU, and thus debates like this will carry on until we all are grey and beyond that point. XD

[QUOTE=Pedro T Hutt]But from that reasoning even a novel sized fanfiction can be canon. XD
[/QUOTE]


No, because it has to be reviewed and authorized by Lucasfilm first, which fanfiction is not.

I'll just come in and give my opinion, which no one wants to hear.

The EU books are not 100% "canon". The only thing that is 100% canon in Star Wars is what we see on screen, and what comes out of Lucas' mouth. I haven't heard him say the Storm Troopers were clones, but if he did, then they are.

But if you were to ask me, I would say that the Stormtroopers are not clones. For one, they were created to combat the Seperatists, and keeping them around after the Seperatists would look suspicious. And, since the clones have growth acceleration, they'd all be dead by the time ANH came around.

And sorry, but the EU is just flat out wrong sometimes. Example from Starwars.com:



Luke never cut off Darth Vader's right arm. The fact that they even had a second confrontation (making RoTJ their third) would completely screw a point of the films up. And, Luke cutting off Vader's right arm, and then cutting off his left, nearly destroys one of Luke's strengths as a character.

THEY DIED
-------------------END OF THREAD CUT HERE-------------------------------------------------------

o_0

Clones!!!!!!!!!!

I'm getting tired of explaining it, so for the last time I'll state that I have not been posting my opinion, but rather the official policy of Lucasfilm.

Lucasfilm says that the EU is canon, not me.

Lucasfilm says something has to be officially approved of before being published, and only approved, published sources are canon.


Therefore, the EU is canon, and interviews are not, and it's not a matter of "my opinion" but a matter of Lucasfilm policy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_canon
'Nuff said.