The cross represents Jesus on the crucifix. Is that so hard to understand?

I don't know anywhere in your teachings where your God commanded people to go post on message forums, either.

dumdedum dum dum dum dum..... the other thread is waiting for you, SF_GoldG_01.

Edit: It is Jehovah's Will that SF_GoldG_01 convert people to the one true faith by distributing fake beta copies of a fake game! hurr

You are an ignorant IDIOT Jon'C... yes 144 000 will go to heaven but many more will go to paradise, the 144 000 are going to be with Jesus to help his new kingdom, but the people of god will inherit the earth. There is a difference between the paradise on earth and on heaven. Judgement day will come and many people will die, then will come the resurrection for those who have parished before this day, to either be judged or to a new life in which you shall finally learn the truth, then 1000 years will pass in which the world is purified, and along with our bodies. Some will fall, others will last, the devil will tempt us one last time, and even more will fall, then the devil, all the fallen angels, along with all the men not loyal to God, will be destroyed and the ones remaining will be the inheriters of the Earth and shall live eternally.

Anyone else find it ironic that a Jehova's Witness is accusing Catholics of bending things for their own means? That has got to be the definition of irony.

Boy, am I glad that heaven and paradise ar one in the same for me and that Jesus will be there waiting for me.

Seriously, when did this "paradise" of yours come into existence? because it sounds to me like something that was added in later to account for the the fact that 144,000 isn't a very big number and that no one would want to be in a religion that limited the number of people who could be saved.

The only problem is the latin word Crux doesn't mean cross... it mean STAKE!

They accuse no one, I am accusing them.

*chuckles*

This thread sucks.

Quoting myself...
You are an ignorant IDIOT Jon'C... yes 144 000 will go to heaven but many more will go to paradise, the 144 000 are going to be with Jesus to help his new kingdom, but the people of god will inherit the earth. There is a difference between the paradise on earth and on heaven. Judgement day will come and many people will die, then will come the resurrection for those who have parished before this day, to either be judged or to a new life in which you shall finally learn the truth, then 1000 years will pass in which the world is purified, and along with our bodies. Some will fall, others will last, the devil will tempt us one last time, and even more will fall, then the devil, all the fallen angels, along with all the men not loyal to God, will be destroyed and the ones remaining will be the inheriters of the Earth and shall live eternally.

Actually the Latin word 'crux' does mean 'cross', and '-ify'/'-ifix" means to bind or attach. See the word 'affix' for a common root.

Who's the ignorant IDIOT now?

Edit: Oh I'm sorry, it looks like an alternative root for 'crucify' may in fact be "torture". But it's possible I'm using a different Latin dictionary than the experts in SF_GoldG_01's third world brainwashing factory.

What is the point of quoting all your liturgy? It looks very similar to the last book of the bible (where the sky falls twice) which was clearly written by someone on acid.

If you want serious debate, tell us what *you think* not *what you've been fed*.

/doesn't know why he's trying...

Yes, which was a stake driven into the ground that the Romans would hang people from, which had a cross piece that the person's arms were nailed to. Anything else?

Please don't compare Mormons and Witnesses when you apparantly are ignorant of the former.

It was NOT a cross it was STAKE, they hung Jesus from a stake, I know this for sure because in his time they didn't put people on a cross, they put people on a stake, plus this is in accord with prophecy. The original scripture did not use the word that means cross today.
I'am a Witness and I'm young, so I don't have all the answers, and I can't reply to a thread that moves faster than I can type. And the old men who know about all this tend not to be discuss things but face to face.

Nailed to a stake, eh? Must be an awfully wide one..

I'll back this up tentatively as I know a cool mormon who has never even brought it up or anything. :p

What's the difference between a Mormon knocking on your door to convert you and a Witness knocking on your door to convert you?
20 minutes.

Oooh, I got another one:
What happens when a mormon girl pretends to be my sister's friend for over a year, because she's in a wheelchair and looks like an easy mark, then ditches her when she says she doesn't want to convert?

Oh oh oh, the punchline is just too great. I'll let you think about it for a while first.

Edit: Oh, and then there was the time when some of our "close" family friends were getting married, and we were stuck at the back of the reception with the other heathens. Then there was a high school friend who took advantage of an orphaned girl with the promises of a closely-knit 'family' and made her convert. And that same high school friend who went off to London for his mission (yeah, helping the needy and all).
You know what? I think you get where I'm going here.

Here's how it was. 8'-10' stakes were driven into the ground. When someone was to be crucified, a cross piece was tied to the victim's arms a shoulders in such a manner that their arms were out stretched. They were then paraded through the town as a show of what happens to people who defy the Romans. Then, they get to the stake, where the cross-piece that was carried is attatched to the stake. The person then has nails driven through their feet into the stake and their wrists into the cross piece.

When Jesus was crucified, the CRUCIFIX became a symbol of his death for the sins of mankind. However, the crucifix morphed into a cross because a crucifix was a symbol of death.

Someone like me flips out on her that sunday when she tells the story of the 'ignorant girl in a wheelchair who wouldn't convert'.

You see, you're making the same sort of generalizations that Gold is. How about some real theoligcal discussion regarding Mormons, instead of immature jokes.

Which is why the people of Spartacus' army were all CRUCIFIED around the exact same goddamn time Jesus was isn't it? Crucifixion was a VERY popular form of torture/execution back then.

Wow. I love all the fairy tales. Are people really so disillusioned to think that there's some magical happy land where everything is right and good and whole, and that you'll go there if you follow some archiac collection of social rules? I'm sorry, but I can't begin to understand how anyone's logic can wrap around that and feel satisfied.

Mmmm.... steak.

How come?

EDIT:Please not I'm asking this completely amiably.

That's not the point. The point is that Gold's scripture references are Bull****.

I'm not going to argue with this because I'm an atheist and am not educated that well on the matter (although as a historic matter I think that's utterly false)

But uhhh in reference to cruc/x- .. that means cross, not stake. That's not arguable; the root doesn't come from the crucifixion, and the etymology transcends Christianity.

Also



Soooo uhh .. God creating Jesus and Jesus being created by God is different?

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=crux

10 different references that it means "cross".




You do realize that MEN wrote the bible. So who's to say they got it right? Or that they meant it to even be taken literally? God didn't hand them the bible.

Oh, and while they did use just a stake for crucifixion, they also did crosses. It was merely a manner of preference, how quickly they wanted the person to die, and how much humiliation they wanted the person to go through.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifiction - Reference

Oh, and that reference specifies that they DID use that word in the bible, for cross. So please don't make stuff up.

I saw that as 'God's scripture references'.

No, I'm making statements based on my experience. Every Mormon I've met has been hellbent on finding converts. Like I already said: There is a difference between ignorance and intolerance. I'm not ignorant of your beliefs (and it would be hard to, with all of the enterprising youth looking to use me as a ticket into heaven/hell), I've just had numerous poor experiences with insane cultists from both private clubs.

If you want to have a serious philosophical and theological discussion I'd be happy to oblige you, but don't try to tell me it's "the same sort of generalization[s] that Gold is". To say that my repeated experiences are a "generalization" is like saying that not every Spanish conquistador killed the Mayans.

Edit: Aaaaand you have no idea how hard it was to avoid invoking Godwin's law here.

And the Gospels were written years after Jesus' death.

Also, I think anyone who takes any kind of religious scripture word for word and literally is a moron.

Then I'm afraid you've had a poor sampling. Mormons, in general, are not insane cultists, regardless of your experience. It's really a pity that many who run on the literalist side get made the face of my religion. Also Donny Osmond is not a normal Mormon either. I won't deny that there are a number of people like that, but Mormons are far seperated from Jehovas Witnesses in theology and culture.

But he was a vegetarian because his doctor told him to be. Meat made him flatulent.

tee hee

The Virgin Mary is a prominent catholic symbol in Mexico. This be well known.

Right.



Not quite. When memberships initially exceeded 144,000, the Watchtower Society had some trouble explaining it, so they had to alter their doctrine. See, basically there are these two classes: 144,000 will rule in heaven with Jesus, and the rest will live forever in a paradise on earth. They claim that the "picking" of the 144,000 ended in 1935, but there are still many who claim to be anointed. Now they claim that the anointed of today are replacements for those of the original 144,000 that have fallen away (Interestingly, the entire Governing Body (Highest ranking leaders) are all replacements).

Like when the WTS chose to translate John 1:1 ("In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.", NIV) as "In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god." in their own New World Translation because it didn't fit their anti-trinity doctrine?

No, they leave that to the Faithful and Discrete Slave (aka WTS).
Interesting argument coming from a JW. They never tire of raving on about how they "restored" God's name to the bible. What they won't tell you is how they put it in places where the original texts do not have them. There are many instances in the New World Translation where Lord has been replaced with Jehovah.


Thats funny, this dictionary says: crux, crucis : cross

Thats funny, the Watchtower Society has a very long history of condemning other religions. They even claim that they are inspired by no other than the Devil himself. Don't make me go find quotes from the Watchtower.

If nothing else, I had to respond to this. You base your beliefs on a guy who took gold plates from his backyard that were "divinely given", then magically disappeared. Honestly, that's sillier than any other religion I've ever seen, and that's only the BEGINNING of it.

But, it's your beliefs, and you're entitled to them any which way you want. Just don't shove them on me, and don't begin to act like most mormons are normal people who will not try to convert anyone and everyone, for that conversion is a part of the religion--it's their ticket into heaven. I've even had mormon friends who have tried it on me until I promptly told them to shove it up their ***.

On a sidenote--why is it Mormons dedicate their lives to school? Every single mormon kid I knew was either dedicated to doing well, or at least trying way way too hard in school, to the point where they had no life. They also all liked ska, but it was weird ska, like pop-ska almost. Oddities.

Prominent Catholic symbol is one thing -- but idol worshipping is something altogether different, and is what was implied by the OP..

Another sidenote--the religion that seems the most true to the bible to me is Islam. It basically preaches all the goodness that man should be, also one of the most interesting counters to all christianity has come from a follower of that religion that pointed out something to me--Why do Christians worship Jesus when, in essence, he is but a false God? He is not God, not the one you should worship according to the Old Testament and 10 Commandments.

I just like throwing this stuff out there, especially since bashing WTS is getting old since...well...it's mostly obvious stuff :p

[in reference to people asking about my post:]

Why not? Because, there's no logical evidence that we even have a soul, let alone a conscious mind that can travel. If there is such thing as heaven, where does it physically exsist? How does "God" remain consistant in his determination of "good" and "evil?" Anyone will agree that "good" is left up to disgression. What does heaven look like? How do you physically get there, and what exactly gets there? Is there some crazy matter that is our soul that travels along one of the many dimensions that satisfies the string theory?

If there are perfectly good answeres to all of these things, and there is in fact a heaven, then humans have no idea what it or any of it looks like. That is, it comes down to the simple consideration:

Do I plead an ignorant faith in something that a human being spread and designed in order to explain the unknown?

It's far more logical to look at the entire situation as peace of mind invented by the will of a mortal in order to explain their emotions and death: A lack of coscience.

JediKirby

Stop thinking like a robot. With that same vein of thinking, why make art when your time can be better spent doing something constructive, something useful towards society? Hell, why be given choices at all, we should let Big Brother make all the decisions for us, for he would know what's best for society?

The reasons humans work is because we allow our unexplicable parts to be expressed in things like art, religion, and freedom of choice. You try to logically explain any one of these phenomenons, and your brain will explode--that's just the nature of it. Maybe eventually you'll realize that your crusade to find a way to explain religion is just silly pseudo-intelligence disguised behind the fact that you, personally, have no beliefs. Realize that not everyone takes a logical approach to religion, and life would end up a lot better, and worse off if they did.

John 1:1-2 says something along the lines of
"In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning."

SF_Gold.... how often do you read/study your Bible? For how long, too?

Also, it's my own personal belief that Jesus died on a tree. The branches were cut off and a board or something was nailed horizontally to it. This isn't doctrine or anything. It's just my own personal opinion.
Still, I don't think it was a stake. The 'cross' shape is pretty old/traditional. If it was just a stake, I think the images, etc. would be of a vertical line.