Meh. Although I'm not quite willing to completely dismiss demonic posession and exorcisms, I think many of the stories are complete bull****. For instance, when I was still attending church, a missionary came in and spoke about his experiences in some third world country. This included the "exorcism" of a young girl who was apparently "possessed" by one of the Hindu gods, which are all really, you guessed it, demons. That's right, if you're not a Christian, you're really worshiping Satan and his minions. And any abnormal behavior from you automatically constitutes demonic posession.

In statements like this, it's important to put a "According to this guy" infront of it. Otherwise you make people think you've just made a wide assumption about what all Christians believe. Surely that wasn't your intention?

uhoh...

if(getThingFlags(source) & 0x8){
  do her}
elseif(getThingFlags(source) & 0x4){
  do other babe}
else{
  do a dude}

True, that would've been a good idea. However, I really can't be bothered to change it. And if anyone doesn't see the massive ammounts of sarcasm in that statement, I probably don't give a **** about their opinion anyway.

Naturally. I'm not saying that every case is real, and there's probably a lot of stories floating around that are absolute bull. But that doesn't mean that sometimes it's real.

Sure.. Basically what happened was my dad, myself, one other adult and about 5 younger teenagers (ages 13-16) were sitting in a woman's living room having a youth meeting. My dad was praying (I don't remember about what) and suddenly one of the girls there (probably 15 or so) says quite loudly and forcefully, "Charlie doesn't like that!" (I don't remember for sure if it was Charlie, but it was something like that.)
My dad stopped praying and looked at her and ask, "What?"

She said "nevermind" and my dad was gonna let it go. So he starts praying again and a few minutes later, the girl starts making these weird grunting sounds. My dad had some idea about what was going on, so he starts asking her some questions about what's going on. At first she's very responsive and begins telling us that she has a "friend" named Charlie (again, not sure of the name) and that he didn't like it when my dad prayed. My dad started asking a few more questions and she got sullen and wouldn't answer. Then a few minutes later, she starts threatening that "Charlie's gonna kill you if you keep praying." She said it quietly the first time, and my dad asked her to repeat herself and then she screamed it loud.

So my dad steps into the other room briefly to talk to the other adult that was there (who knew the girl). The girl just sat in a chair glaring at us. My dad comes back into the room and asks the girl if she wants Charlie to leave. Several minutes later they're way into it. My dad's quoting scripture, and commanding the demon out and this girl is talking with a deep, scratchy voice and threatening to kill everyone in the room. At some point during this she let out the roar I mentioned earlier. Maybe there's another explanation, but I can tell you that I'm a adult male, and I can't make that sound with my voice, but this 14 year old girl was able to that night. Anyway, after a while, she let out a final groan and her shoulders slumped, then she looked up at everyone and wanted to know what had happened.

I heard from my dad after that she'd been in trouble at school and at previous churches for outbursts similar to what we'd experienced, but we stayed in touch with her for a year or two after, and in that time, she'd not had any relapses since that night.

Well, as I've heard it was a very nice armchair...

I was just pointing out how your post would be interpreted, since I am fairly certain others will post objecting what you said. Just letting you know, take it or leave it.

Seconded.

It's all boogieman tales. Religion is silly...

People believe in Christ, because if they don't, they won't have an eternal afterlife. Sounds like a good reason. [/sarcasm] "Only through me can you achieve a power greater than any Jedi..."... er hang on. Sound familiar?

And if people do what the bible says, they won't have to think for themselves about what is right and wrong.

Not to sound callous or anything,

But JoS, that's BS. I don't believe in God so that I don't have to come up with my own moral system. I believe in God because of all the things I've seen that fit in line with the Bible.

I don't follow God because I fear eternal damnation. I follow God because I want to have a relationship with Him, and He wants to have a relationship with me.

You can choose your own reason to believe or your own reason not to. But don't think that you know the reasons other people choose.

[and maybe it sounds like a Jedi tale, but seriously, does that surprise you? Fantasies and tales are made up in response to religion and spiritual things. I'm sure George Lucas has some understanding of spirituality, and one way that he can make his films appeal to people is by piggy-backing his story on some of the ideas that are important to people. Just because there's a parrallel doesn't mean they're both fantasy, it just means that Lucas is portraying spiritual ideas in his films.]

As much as I'm staying out of the religious debate, Lucas is well documented from borrowing from religion and fable - because those stories and morals are universal and easily understood, supposedly like all religions.

Don't worry guys, I just use weird metaphores now and then. I didn't mean to claim knowing why people believe. But for certain people it's true, from a certain point of view. (Isn't that always the case?) Some Christian movements certainly use the things I mentioned to scare people into believing.

And what I really meant was: I rather choose to follow my own convictions instead of those imposed to me by a book.

No offense meant to anyone.

My roommate is a unicorn

He must be a prick.

He's a unic?

That's cool. I understand, and you're right, there are a lot of televangists and other supposedly "Christian" movements that will try to get you to join out of fear or threats, but frankly, I don't believe that's the message that should be taught. If you make a decision on it, it should be because you feel personally convicted to make that choice, and because it seems right to you. Not because someone's told you you're going to Hell otherwise, so you're "scared" into making a decision.

Yeah, that's exactly what I meant. Well said.

A kid that talks in deep voices and screams and talks of imaginary friends is probably seeking attention, or they possibly have OCD.

Well possibly. And I wouldn't automatically scream demon, but like I said, she was talking in a voice that she should not have been capable of. As a 21 year old male, I can't make my voice do that, and she's a 14 year old girl.

But anyway, you can believe what you want. It doesn't really matter to me what you think. I just know what I think.

Different people, especially of different sexes, can make different tones that other people can't. She could've practiced doing that tone for quite awhile or it might just be some weird thing she discovered she can do.

Until we get spinning heads, I'm just gonna take each "possession" as ridiculous and a cry for attention or just getting people worked up for a laugh. Possession is 9/10ths of the law anyways.

Oh? And you've studied the traits of her vocal chords to know this for sure? You've studied documented cases of psychosis which may explain all you've seen and still are sure that it's not it? No? Yeah, neither have most other people who believe in demonic possessions. Oh, I don't know what it is, so it must be DEMONS! Christ, get out of the 16th century already.

Miracles happen, but judging by some of the above posts, it may be shortlived.

Not only that, it was over a cell phone.

And what is a "miracle"? Why does "miracles" happen? What qualification do you need to have for a "miracle" to happen to you, and what makes a "miracle?"

Uhm, miracle is a term not limited to Christianity, I'm sure I've heard atheists say such. It's a word. You know, like how you wish someone good luck? Will it make any difference to how they perform? Doubtful. Do you even believe in luck/providence/etc.? Whether you do or don't, it won't stop you from saying "Good luck" to people or saying "Jesus Christ" when something bad happens? If Jesus Christ wasn't the son of God, and if he didn't even exist, why do you take the time to say his name? Is it voluntary, or involuntary? Are you really dictating what you say, or is society and those around you? Words have many different meanings and interpretations, applications and intracacies. Think about it

Uhh. Read my posts before you comment on them. The event that I experienced was *not* over a cell phone.

And Emon, for the sake of maintaining a friendly atmosphere I'm going to ignore the nasty tone to your post and just adress the issue. I'd appreciate it though if you'd chill it down a little.

Now, like I said, you can think what you want, but 14 year old girls voices do not make those noises. It was a deep, rhaspy noise, and a roar like you'd hear on the discovery channel. Show me one documented case of someone making a sound like that using only their vocal chords and maybe I'll believe you.

And Jedigreedo, it's not just some weird thing she discovered she can do.
Teenaged girls are not capable of that sound. That'd be like seeing someone flying around in the air by flapping their arms and saying, "Maybe that's just some weird thing they can do."

Runhild Gammelsæter of Thorr's Hammer could make some pretty wicked guttural sounds...

http://www.southernlord.com/images/norge.mp3

I can't recall her age, though.

Guys please don't flame each other and try to stick to the subject....

I asked my roommate abit about Carolyn (the "possessed girl" we're talking about) and he said that she's a wiccan. Her family, especially her mother, also hates Christians and her. This might have led to her developing mental issues as she grew up due to the feeling of being rejected. Along comes my roommate, he sweet talks to her and gives her the attention she deeply wanted as well as he. It's quite possible that Carolyn is just another one of my roommate's broken 15 years-old "female friends". If anyone wish for me to go into details about my roommate's despicable sweet talks with these underaged and mostly broken up girls, do tell me and I'll explain it in another topic as I don't want to deviate from this current topic.

During one my roommate's phone conversation with her, I overheard something about a friend of Carolyn being in the hospital because of drugs. If she's friend with a druggie, there is a possible chance that she could have had a drug history (despite my roommate telling me she does no drugs), and we all understand the effects that drugs can have on the human mind.

About how he attains these "spirtiual powers from God", thank you for reminding me that. I believe I was going to ask him initially, but I was trying to keep myself from chuckling so that led to me forgetting about it. Another thing I noticed is how he seems to brag about his "exorcism" powers. I noticed him boasting how he would exorcise the demon from Carolyn in a similar fashion to John Constantine. He also told her how he finds it coincidental that he received two demon hunting games over winterbreak (Doom III and Constantine). It is almost as if he's trying hard to justify that it's his destiny to become a "demon slayer" or something. To top it all, apparently he's going to fly over to Oklahoma for spring break and physically exorcise the demon from her.

Do tell about his child molestation. I'm interested to hear just how batty your roommate it ;-P

HooDWinkeR, I'll check that out when I get home, but somehow I doubt it will sound much like what happened. Maybe the roar thing will sound similar, but does that person actually talk with a voice like that? Can she make words?

Like I said I'll check it out. (I'll get home from work in just over 3 hours)

Yeah, she is "singing" in Norwegian, both clearly and harshly.

I don't know about the cell phone situation, but I believe Sarn knows what he is talking about.

People can try to disprove spiritual/super-natural things, but it isn't going to change -my- mind. The testimony of friends that have heard voices or seen things is pretty meaningful to me.
The voice for that norge.mp3 was unusual, but it's also interesting that the website looked 'dark/demonic.' *shrug*

hehe, it's Doom metal or something like that, so I'd wager the thematic elements aren't going to be, or try to be, very uplifiting.

There's a couple more metal bands I can think of off the top of my head with harsh female vocals:

http://www.archenemy.net (actually a totally ****ing awesome band musically, I don't care much for Thorr's Hammer at all, it was just the first thing that popped into my head when I read some of the posts about low/loud growling and females :o)

http://www.astarteband.com

Both sites also contain music samples.

Some women are quite capable of singing/speaking/screaming gutturally.

That's not a very good comparison though, vocals are easy to manipulate with practice. Your analogy would mean defying gravity.

Though Emon phrased it harshly, he did raise a good point. Unless you've done research and such on wether or not a girl can reach a certain tone, you can't really suggest it as evidence just because you cannot do it. It'd be like if you said the girl can't possibly make her ears or some other muscle move just because you can't.

True.. But these are adult women and professionals, not 14 year old girls. But I still haven't had a chance to check them out, so I don't know if they even compare.

My friends and I used to sit around and make funny noises in Junior High. One girl sounded just like the devil. This girl had a nice pretty femenine voice normally but could work herself up to go lower than me and be all, evil.

I quite agree with this sentiment. Exorcism is as ridiculous as witchhunts were. I think you guys have watched a few too many movies.

In the Bible it says Jesus cast out demons.

I actually tend to think that if he did, it was more of correcting chemical imbalances and prescribing prozac and lithium cocktails.

He was a lisenced doctor, after all.

the thing that bugs me the most is not that people don't believe this stuff... because its really hard to believe
but more that they immediatly discredit it without having seen one themselves
its one thing to not believe, but another to call bull sh*t without having seen


but you know, whatever

Good thing we have asute fellows like you to keep us safe from SATAN'S FIREY CLUTCHES!

My problem is how people jump to the conclusion of it being a demonic possession without considering all of the possibilities, many of which they may not be aware of. And I'm not blaming them for being ignorant, I wouldn't expect most people to know all about psychosis, but I don't think you should be ignoring it without being educated about it.

Either way, I apologize from my harshness Sarn, it wasn't even directed at you, but people in general.

Basically what I'm saying is that you shouldn't be calling something a demonic possession without it undergoing scientific scrutiny to rule out all other possibilities. If you've done that, then believing it to be a demonic possession becomes a lot more acceptable, although I would still disagree (just because there's no scientific explination yet doesn't make it supernatural, etc).

So... does "physically exorcise" mean precisely what I think it means, considering he's a pedo?
Aren't only priests supposed to perform exorcisms for that precise reason? Because, presumably, they are "above sin"?

-I mean, the whole catholic altar boy thing nonwithstanding.