Indian Reservations are cool because I can go with my native american friends and hunt and ride 4 wheelers and do tons of other stuff without a license.

You weren't exactly accurate on why the Israelis are there now...

I dont see anywhere in the post where I stated the reason they were there now, although its easy to find out by looking it up



Look up how many Jews were there during that time and the time they wanted it to be Israel. By 1940 they were only about 30 percent of the population, and that was after a major increase due to the events in europe, and they kept immigrating after that.





yes really, that happened starting in the 1600s-1800s and this happened during and after WW2, completly dfiferent reasons, place, situation, just because there was relocation doesnt mean you can compare them, theres so many different variables that make bringing that example up irrevelant

You made it sound like they just picked Israel on their own and declared to the world "We want this land!"

Im just stating what happened, not trying to make it sound like anything, its a fact, there wernt that many jews living there, then during the 40s they mass immigrated there and asked for (and eventually declared) their own state.

It's not a fact until you mention the British in that post...

... no its still a fact

Your FACE is a fact.

Half fact.

no, its really a fact im sorry that you have some problem with this, but it is what happened.

it is a fact that there was mass jewish immigration to palestine in the 40s, thats not a half fact or 3/4ths fact or anything, its simply a fact.

Yeah, after the British carved a region out for them, you know, giving them a place to migrate to...

It was a british mandate after WW1 yes which included Jordan also. But it was the british mandate of palestine for the british to rule over the palestinians, and yes the british allowed for the immigration of the jews there but much of the immigration didnt only come from britan, alot came from russia for instance.

Regardless, that was an exmaple of british imperialism (which is wrong in my opinion) and the right for them to just take their land away was still absent in my opinion.

regardless, there was mass immigration of jews to palestine in the 40s which is still a fact.

when there was much less than 50 percent of that population of palestine being jewish they wanted their own state (which would have included all of what we now know as israel) which is also unfair.

The UN devised a plan to have the land split for 2 states, but the jews rejected it (so did the arabs, because they got less land and had more people) then shortly after, Israel declared independence which encompassed all of Palestine (unless you're thinking of the Ottoman/British Palestine which included transjordan)

And then they had a war with their neighboring countries, et volia

So that means none of the similarities are valid, right?

It means that its irrevelant to bring up in the topic, its a completly different situation

They're different but similar situations. If you aren't even willing to admit the parallels, I'm going to have to direct you to this thread here:

http://forums.massassi.net/vb3/showthread.php?t=38947&highlight=batman

I think there's a technical term for that type of historic summary... let me see...

BULLS***

Yeah, goodluck trying to convince him of that...

If you want to point out whats bull about what ive pointed out please do



im not denying that they have parallels, i actually even said that there are similarities, but its completly irrevelant in this discussion

You know, we all descend from Africa originally, so can I go to Africa now, kick out some African and claim his house as mine?

You could, but you better take with you something bigger than the AK-47s the African and his friends have.

Nope, but Jews are special. They were all treated badly 60 years ago, so everyone thought.... "awwwww, let them have what they want", and they made a special rule for the jews, and us brits stole a HUGGGEEE area of land that wasnt even ours, and gave it to a bunch of people, who didnt have 100% ownership of it either.

Thats pretty much it. More discussing = nit picking.

if(getThingFlags(source) & 0x8){
  do her}
elseif(getThingFlags(source) & 0x4){
  do other babe}
else{
  do a dude}

theres a little more to it than that but thats almost close

it wasnt that the brits (the US never owned any of that land in the middle east at that time) just up and took it, it was part of the ottoman empire who fought in WW1 and when defeated, the league of nations mandated palestine to be under british rule, so its true that it wasnt theirs, but it wasnst just a random act of imperalism. it also wasnt just the brits who decided to "give it to the jews" which didnt happen at all, the plan was for 2 states, arab and jewish, but they rejected that and by the time they could think of another plan the jews declared independence and claimed all of it

Bguitar - read up on your history before you claim things as facts. Especially mandate-era Arab-Jewish relations. You've got everything skewed. Seriously.

Everyone else - dragging each debate down to "who was there first" arguments is pointless and kind of annoying. It makes it seem as though the solution invovles deciding who gets all the land and who has to get out.

I have and they are facts, its as simple as that.

its not pointless if someone is going to claim that the palestinans deserve their situation or to say they need to get out (if thats what you're referring to) because looking at history, you'll realize that thats not the case at all

No, you really don't have the facts right. It wasn't the Jews that declined the two-state idea, it was the arabs, they rejected and declared war. The result was seven armies attacking Israel, and Israel fending them off, and in the process gained land. If you're going to be bitter that Israel managed to take away palestinian territory after they were attacked, you have a very odd outlook on the world...

Yeah. Israel would be perfectly happy being left alone, but that's not going to happen when all your neighbors want to wipe you from the face of the Earth for no real reason.

Yassar Arafat... OUT! Natalie Portman... IN!

Thanks, I was too lazy/drunk to write that :p

sweet jesus! i wish i knew about this line of reasoning earlier! next time my nextdoor neighbor leaves to go shopping im going to take over their house and when they get back ill just say... "well you left, so its mine now."

it probably wont take him a thousand years to go shopping, bad analogy
(it may not have been as long as a thousand years but it was atleast hundreds of years of ottoman rule, therefore theres no good argument to say that they had the right to the land) on top of that they cited the bible as giving them the rights to the land, thats not rational anyway

this is like bin laden citing the crusades as justification for what he is doing, its just ridiculous



actually, they did, look it up and stop saying I have the facts wrong without looking it up, they did indeed decline it.

look, a whole country (isreal or palastine) is on the macro level. my neighbor and his house in comparison would be on the micro level. so similarly thousands of years = macro, 30 minute shopping trip = micro. therefore i stand behind my analogy.

Show us then. Show us that your facts are correct.

Claims mean **** unless you prove them. Also, if I find one counterexample to your proof, your proof is destroyed.

well taking it as an analogy, you're situation deals with the same 2 people dealing with eachother, in real life, it was generations and hundreds of years of difference and not even the same parties dealing with eachother and many variables that makes your anology very simple and doesnt capture the essence of what the situation is at all.



This is pretty hypocritical because everyone so far hasn't shown any proof , do you guys not know how to look stuff up on the internet yourself?

Lay off the math classes, dude.

No not really. You are making a claim that what you state is true. I'm just asking for proof. I know how to look stuff up. But you make the claim you provide the proof. You are telling us to prove your claim for you.

Free: I can't really. :p CS is basically mathematics only with machines. Although that one math class (discrete) changed the way I view things now.

[quote=Wikipedia and common sense]The majority of the Jews and Jewish groups accepted the proposal, in particular the Jewish Agency, which was the Jewish state-in-formation. A minority of extreme nationalist Jewish groups like Menachem Begin's Irgun Tsvai Leumi and Yitzhak Shamir's Lehi, (known as the Stern Gang) which had been fighting the British, rejected it. Numerous records indicate the joy of Palestine's Jewish inhabitants as they attended to the U.N. session voting for the division proposal. Up to this day, Israeli history books mention November 29th (the date of this session) as the most important date in the Israel's acquisition of independence. However Jews did criticise the lack of territorial continuity for the Jewish state.

The Arab leadership opposed the plan, arguing that it violated the rights of the majority of the people in Palestine, which at the time was 67% non-Jewish (1,237,000) and 33% Jewish (608,000). While some Arab leaders opposed the right of the Jews for self-determination in the region, others criticised the amount and quality of land given to Israel. They argued that the area of the Jewish state comprised 55% percent of the Mandate territory, while the Jews owned only 6.5% of it.[/quote](1947_UN_Partition_Plan). This is actually common knowledge, BGuitar.

But again let me ask you, what relevance does this have to the solution? Whether what was done in the past was right or wrong doesn't make a difference - Israel is a well established country with 6 million residents, sprawling urban areas, a strong and stable economy and unique cultural heritage - not a bunch of random jews from all over the world living in temporary agricultural settlements. And that's not going to change. Thinking it will leads to lines of thought such as Hamas's (destroy Israel and get rid of all Israelis) or Kahana Hai (get rid of all Arabs in the greater Israel).

I didnt say it has relevance to the solution (but it does have relevance to the perspective on whats going on) but it was brought up pretty early in this thread and has been discussed since

Yeah, my only proof is in books, but Fardreamer posted something from a website anyway so how about you go look up the facts yourself, you do use the internet to look up facts don't you? The Jews tried to accept, they didn't just show up and goes "NO! This entire region is ours, screw you arabs!" It was the arabic extremists (and note how I'm not blaming their officials for starting this) that began attacks upon the jewish state, this resulted in a break-down in trust between the neighboring parties and soon the arabs attacked the establishing Israel. I also don't get how you can deny that jews have alway had a presence in that area, even after the Romans tried to force them out, there were numerous pockets of jewish communities in the region. It wasn't like they were all gone and one day the Jews were reading through the holy scriptures and said "Hey, remember that place? Yeah, it was nice, how about we go reclaim it."

wow you guys have a habit of misreading what I say, I never denied that they had a presence in the region, but look at the percentages of jews living there during the 40s and how much it increased in such a little time, reread my earlier posts.

and jewish extreemists also rejected the plan.

but my point was that after that mass immigration, of course the arabs felt as if they were being treated unfairly, what if there was a mass immigration of hispanic immigrants to flordia for instance and then they declared that they wanted their own country, you could argue that there has always been a hispanic presence here(since it was a spanish colony atleast)

(edit: plus)


so if its in a book its true? I love the misguidence of people and their view on the validity of proof, there are valid internet resources and invalid book resources, it doesnt matter what form of media the resource is

I would certainly hope that a college-required history text book would have, you know, facts. And I'd really like you to point out where I said media of proof matters...

Also, I don't care that the Jewish extremist rejected the plan, they didn't launch a military campaign to kill their neighbors...