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ForumsDiscussion Forum → HAMAS won the palestinean parilmentary elections.
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HAMAS won the palestinean parilmentary elections.
2006-01-29, 3:17 PM #81
Originally posted by Fardreamer:
(1947_UN_Partition_Plan). This is actually common knowledge, BGuitar.

But again let me ask you, what relevance does this have to the solution? Whether what was done in the past was right or wrong doesn't make a difference - Israel is a well established country with 6 million residents, sprawling urban areas, a strong and stable economy and unique cultural heritage - not a bunch of random jews from all over the world living in temporary agricultural settlements. And that's not going to change. Thinking it will leads to lines of thought such as Hamas's (destroy Israel and get rid of all Israelis) or Kahana Hai (get rid of all Arabs in the greater Israel).


Bottom line is that, just like the numerous conflicts over the years of human existence, there is no real solution. You fail to see what the other half of the "solution" feels. That's why background is important, to see where your agressors are coming from and how to deal with them accordingly. And the current approach won't do jack squat.

The Palestinians are angry, and they will be angry for a while. They are incensed by what they see as a imperialistic invasion, an infection that must be removed. Their enemies have the audacity to not only steal their lands but play victim when the original occupants try to get their land back. Their allies have tried to help them, but they've all been summarily repulsed. What's even worse is that others are on their invader's side, and paint the Palestinians as ruthless, savage, ignorant barbarians, while all they are trying to do is reclaim the land that was once theirs. Frustration mixed with indignation, mourning over deaths caused by the occupation, feed an immense hatred.

How do you calm a person down after their house is taken from them, their children murdered, and their neighbor beaten up by some thugs who claim that they are the good guys? And when the police come, they are on the side of the hoodlums who were the instigators of the mess! Their crimes go unpunished, and while they sit in your house you pitch a tent in the front yard, throwing rocks against their barred windows in a futile effort to fight back. The police come in and draw up a plan for you to get half of the house, but does that really make any sense in this picture?

You can't calm that person down! It will take time to heal those wounds. Humans can also keep grudges for a very, very long time. Realistically no amount of effort will ameliorate the inciters of violence and their supporters in the Arab world for a long time coming.

The point of this is that I'm trying to paint a picture of a how a Palestinian would feel. Considering they have to be part of the solution, if they harbor feelings like this, how can you reach peace? It doesn't matter to them how developed Isreal is. It's like the house situation, and the thugs install t3 lines, have moved their families in, and remodeled it to look like the Taj Mahal. It doesn't matter to them! And why should it?
2006-01-29, 3:23 PM #82
Thugs+T3= Nerd Mafia
2006-01-29, 3:25 PM #83
Originally posted by Tiberium_Empire:
Thugs+T3= Nerd Mafia


Hey, it fits the Isrealis. They can kick *** and are intellegent...
2006-01-29, 3:39 PM #84
[QUOTE=Lord Kuat]Stuff...[/QUOTE]
The really funny thing is, the palestinians aren't the original occupants, they originally did all this to the jews to begin with, I mean their name itself comes from the hebrew root of "invader."
omnia mea mecum porto
2006-01-29, 3:50 PM #85
Originally posted by Roach:
The really funny thing is, the palestinians aren't the original occupants, they originally did all this to the jews to begin with, I mean their name itself comes from the hebrew root of "invader."


You do agree that the Palestinians feel this way though, right? That was sorta my point, not justifying their feelings one way or another.

And the Jews did that to the Canaanites. Yeah, everyone in the world decended from a group of ruthless bastards, I agree. Peace-seeking peoples were "selected" out. Yes, "good guys" don't really exist in this day and age.
2006-01-29, 4:02 PM #86
Yeah, I do agree the palestinians feel wronged, but I don't agree with how they deal with it.
omnia mea mecum porto
2006-01-29, 4:25 PM #87
Originally posted by Roach:
Yeah, I do agree the palestinians feel wronged, but I don't agree with how they deal with it.


As you know, Logic and Emotion differ. Since they are working on emotions, not much of a solution can be done.

Even if they have the same opinion, logically they should give up. Even if they are 100% right, there is nothing they can really do about it, frustrating as it may be. They are outgunned and out resourced. But until they realize this, I personally think there will be no resolution. You can't convince them that what they feel is in error, they just have to calm down.

This was just a rebuke against the feeling that a solution can be reached irrespective of what happened in the past. Because what happened is very strong in their hearts, and cannot be ignored.

What I (hope happens): Realize this is going nowhere, decide they have to moderize to be an equal, in the process forming strong economic ties to Isreal (which they may or may not have? But I'm not sure about this) that would make them realizes it's a boon to them that Isreal exists, and then the conflict just becomes another page in a history book. But as far as other trails to this end? I don't think any accord will work...
2006-01-29, 4:29 PM #88
Exactly, and their initial response is why the West doesn't listen to them now. The past is completely relevant for sure.
omnia mea mecum porto
2006-01-29, 4:41 PM #89
Originally posted by Roach:
The really funny thing is, the palestinians aren't the original occupants, they originally did all this to the jews to begin with, I mean their name itself comes from the hebrew root of "invader."


you're right but lets look at when the invasion happened:

from wiki:
Quote:
The Arabs conquered the land from the Eastern Roman Empire in 638 CE. The area was ruled by various Arab states (interrupted by the rule of the Crusaders) before becoming part of the Ottoman Empire in 1517.


638...and even before then it had been under roman control which was never jewish since...

from wiki:

Quote:
During the 1st century BCE Judea lost its autonomy to the Roman Empire by becoming first a client kingdom, then a province of the empire.


so to say "well the arabs wernt even originally there!" you must go back to atleast 638, which is a method that usama bin laden uses alot when he tried to justify his jihad (when he referrs to the crusades which is obviously completly irrelevant)
2006-01-29, 4:43 PM #90
...uh, thanks? I don't recall saying I don't know when it happened, I'm well aware of the time frame.
omnia mea mecum porto
2006-01-29, 4:43 PM #91
Originally posted by Roach:
The past is completely relevant for sure.


if thats the case then why do you keep brining an even that happened in the 7th century up?
2006-01-29, 4:48 PM #92
[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]Or an example of why to never make people evacuate their lands so another group can move in and take over the area according to some rather arbitrary book made a thousand-ish years ago.[/QUOTE]

We have a winner
"His Will Was Set, And Only Death Would Break It"

"None knows what the new day shall bring him"
2006-01-29, 4:59 PM #93
Originally posted by Roach:
...uh, thanks? I don't recall saying I don't know when it happened, I'm well aware of the time frame.


so you think thats directly relevant to the situation today? interesting
2006-01-29, 5:05 PM #94
It relevant in the whole "that's not their land" scheme of things.
omnia mea mecum porto
2006-01-29, 5:15 PM #95
Originally posted by Roach:
It relevant in the whole "that's not their land" scheme of things.


well when a group of people has been living in a place since the 7th century and then the other group in the 1900s decides "well this was our land then!"

theres a problem there
2006-01-29, 5:18 PM #96
You guys all realize that land ownership is all relative right?

If not, I have a deed for a bridge to sell you.
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2006-01-29, 5:22 PM #97
Originally posted by TSM_Bguitar:
well when a group of people has been living in a place since the 7th century and then the other group in the 1900s decides "well this was our land then!"

theres a problem there


Right, but like you said, the Jewish presence isn't new...
omnia mea mecum porto
2006-01-29, 5:34 PM #98
Originally posted by Roach:
Right, but like you said, the Jewish presence isn't new...


you're good at taking things out of context

Quote:
If not, I have a deed for a bridge to sell you.


hah is that from kevin neleon's special on the funniest commercials of the year by any chance?
2006-01-29, 5:36 PM #99
Originally posted by TSM_Bguitar:
you're good at taking things out of context



hah is that from kevin neleon's special on the funniest commercials of the year by any chance?


Actually it's a really old thing that i can't remember the real meaning of. He might have used it.

I have however sold the Brooklyn Bridge before.
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2006-01-29, 5:38 PM #100
Originally posted by TSM_Bguitar:
you're good at taking things out of context

Hmmm, you agreeing that the jew's have had communities in that region for centuries, despite them being the minority is taking things out of context. Yeah, you're good at showing me the light.
omnia mea mecum porto
2006-01-29, 5:48 PM #101
Quote:
Hmmm, you agreeing that the jew's have had communities in that region for centuries, despite them being the minority is taking things out of context. Yeah, you're good at showing me the light


refer to my earlier analogy of Florida earlier in this thread
2006-01-29, 6:12 PM #102
Originally posted by Spook:
You guys all realize that land ownership is all relative right?

If not, I have a deed for a bridge to sell you.



Is it in Brooklyn?!?!?!
Pissed Off?
2006-01-29, 6:19 PM #103
Originally posted by Avenger:
Is it in Brooklyn?!?!?!


Yes, yes, it is the authentic original bridge in it's original packaging.
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2006-01-29, 6:22 PM #104
Sooo...what do we do exactly to resolve this whole mess then? Give the Palestinians Isreal in totem? Isreal conquer Palestine?
Code to the left of him, code to the right of him, code in front of him compil'd and thundered. Programm'd at with shot and $SHELL. Boldly he typed and well. Into the jaws of C. Into the mouth of PERL. Debug'd the 0x258.
2006-01-29, 6:42 PM #105
Originally posted by TSM_Bguitar:
refer to my earlier analogy of Florida earlier in this thread

Yup, if they had the means to do it, I say go for it. But they don't. Israel did. Dog eat dog world. It isn't fair, is it?
omnia mea mecum porto
2006-01-29, 6:45 PM #106
Originally posted by JediGandalf:
Sooo...what do we do exactly to resolve this whole mess then? Give the Palestinians Isreal in totem? Isreal conquer Palestine?


No, see, it can't be solved. Until people are willing to compromize it will never be solved. Both parties are stubborn and hard headed (so is everyone else, actually).

This is a no compromise situation. Compromises will cause upstarts.

Maybe if the culture changes. Right now the solution depends on the younger generation learning to get along, instead of being indoctrinated into their parents racist and hateful ways.

We should carpet bomb with copies of Remember the Titans.
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2006-01-29, 8:00 PM #107
Originally posted by JediGandalf:
Sooo...what do we do exactly to resolve this whole mess then? Give the Palestinians Isreal in totem? Isreal conquer Palestine?


What's the solution to x=1/0? I forgot.

Edit: Exactly what spook said.
2006-01-29, 8:19 PM #108
[QUOTE=Lord Kuat]What's the solution to x=1/0? I forgot.

Edit: Exactly what spook said.[/QUOTE]
It's sqrt(-1) (in reals)!
Code to the left of him, code to the right of him, code in front of him compil'd and thundered. Programm'd at with shot and $SHELL. Boldly he typed and well. Into the jaws of C. Into the mouth of PERL. Debug'd the 0x258.
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