Geez, we might just rename 'Discussion Forum' to 'Religious Discussion' now.

The problem with this binary scenario is it doesn't address the most likely outcome which is both person A and person B are wrong. Twenty very broad belief systems account for most people on earth. If you assume the many differences within each system aren't enough to differentiate between hellbound people and heavenbound people, which is an enormous assumption, then there's only a ten percent chance either of them is correct.

Of course, once you account for the fact that there are factions within factions (take Muslims and even Christains, for example) that hate each other, and that there are many more than twenty religions, and that probability of correctness becomes much lower, say, 1-2%.

BUT, that's assuming that exactly 1 belief system that exists is correct. It's also quite possible that none of them are.

Don't you see why it's ridiculous to be religious IF you believe in stern objectivity? The only way you can justify religion is if you take a relativistic viewpoint that religion is one's own personal journey and that different religions work for different people. In that case, religion is definitely not ridiculous.

er, they're both wrong.

Hell is a stupid idea, most of it fabricated in the Dark Ages when religion burnt witches at the ....steak....

mmmm, steak....

if(getThingFlags(source) & 0x8){
  do her}
elseif(getThingFlags(source) & 0x4){
  do other babe}
else{
  do a dude}

Somewhat similar perhaps yes, like French is 'somewhat similar' to English. :p



lol! no worries... Just remember from now on.

German is spoken in Germany (duh)
'Dutch' is spoken in The Netherlands (aka Holland),
and not to be confused with 'Deutsch', which is the German word for 'German'.

Whoever made up the word 'Dutch', I dunno. But he didn't come from our country, lol.

I recognize this too. I never hear about a regular guy standing up and saying Christians are wrong, but I'm always hearing someone talk about how Muslims are wrong.

[ And it was working so well, so, let's not. ]

As someone who's been in almost every type of church in the bible belt (south), I'd have to say you're wrong, but only for adults. Kids as christians nowadays aren't nearly as fundamentalist or vocal as their parents. They're, ironically enough, a lot more humble. But the parents are BAD. Really, really, really bad.

Oh, hi zloc.

Freelancer, not all belief systems believe in hell, or that a lot of people are going there. It is true, though, that person A and person B can be wrong in their thinking. I forgot to mention that much.

Of course some people don't believe in hell. I'm one of them, I think I'd know.

Except he said systems, as in religions, not people. Some religions don't have a hell counterpart to heaven.

well quite frankly I think it maybe because Christians view the stakes as higher. If the eternal destany of a person's soul is at stake then the most loving thing a christian can do is tell others about it.

another reason Christians are viewed as "standoffish" may be that people don't like what we have to say. it's alot easier to hear: "You can live a good life and have a good afterlife if you just be good or follow these simple rules." Then to listen to the Christian who beleives: "It dosen't matter what rules you try to follow, no one can do it. And as for being good there is no one on earth who is not rotten to the core. Thats why we need a savior becasue we cannot do anything good on our own."

It's not easy to hear and also not easy to say to people.

I am also not sure what white has to do with it?

[QUOTE=Numenor King]well quite frankly I think it maybe because Christians view the stakes as higher. If the eternal destany of a person's soul is at stake then the most loving thing a christian can do is tell others about it.

another reason Christians are viewed as "standoffish" may be that people don't like what we have to say. it's alot easier to hear: "You can live a good life and have a good afterlife if you just be good or follow these simple rules." Then to listen to the Christian who beleives: "It dosen't matter what rules you try to follow, no one can do it. And as for being good there is no one on earth who is not rotten to the core. Thats why we need a savior becasue we cannot do anything good on our own."

It's not easy to hear and also not easy to say to people.

I am also not sure what white has to do with it?[/QUOTE]
The stakes are just as high for any other religion. They're just more respectful.

And most people blow off what you have to say--it's not that, it's the repeated ways you try to say it. Christians try cramming it down your throat with every chance they get. People don't like having things crammed down their throats.

[QUOTE=Numenor King]another reason Christians are viewed as "standoffish" may be that people don't like what we have to say. it's alot easier to hear: "You can live a good life and have a good afterlife if you just be good or follow these simple rules." Then to listen to the Christian who beleives: "It dosen't matter what rules you try to follow, no one can do it. And as for being good there is no one on earth who is not rotten to the core. Thats why we need a savior becasue we cannot do anything good on our own."[/QUOTE]The problem I see with Christianity's 'philosophy' is that it pretty much focuses exclusively on the afterlife, and dismisses personal responsibilities. "Are you a raging homophobe? Who cares? The dirty gays are going to burn in hell anyways, and Jesus forgives you!" And I find your views on humanity to be quite disgusting. There are plenty of good people out there, Christian and otherwise, who sacrifice everything to help their fellow man and you call them "rotten to the core." It's this kind of hateful thinking that drove me away from your religion.

Well, in comparison to -eternal- life, a period of 70 or 80 years is insignificant.

Not everyone is 'completely rotten' to the core, but everyone does need God. From a Christian perspective, that is.

[QUOTE=Numenor King]well quite frankly I think it maybe because Christians view the stakes as higher. If the eternal destany of a person's soul is at stake then the most loving thing a christian can do is tell others about it.

another reason Christians are viewed as "standoffish" may be that people don't like what we have to say. it's alot easier to hear: "You can live a good life and have a good afterlife if you just be good or follow these simple rules." Then to listen to the Christian who beleives: "It dosen't matter what rules you try to follow, no one can do it. And as for being good there is no one on earth who is not rotten to the core. Thats why we need a savior becasue we cannot do anything good on our own."

It's not easy to hear and also not easy to say to people.

I am also not sure what white has to do with it?[/QUOTE]

People don't want to hear it because it's fundimentally untrue. The real reason is conversion which isn't your damned right. If you think somebody's going to burn in hell, let them. It's their right to believe that they won't.

And white has a TON to do with it. I've never had such a terrible thing said to me (a Jew) by a black Christian, as I have by a white Christian. It's about respect, and white, Christian majorities don't have much of it (I'm not singling anybody out here, so don't get defensive).

Sure there are idiots who like to shout "OMG Gays are going to Hell and can't be saved evar!!1one11", but they have no clue, almost certainly aren't Christians, and just like insulting people. Yes, homosexuality is wrong, and so is lying, fornication, ect. We are fallen. We all sin. With out Christ we are going to hell. Period. That's the whole point. We are all "rotten to the core", my self included. Not saying it doesn't change anything. Christians should be trying to tell you how to fix that. If they're just insulting you, they're just arrogant idiots, not Christians. (Next time you see one claiming to be a Christian, smack him for me will you?)

Here's an analogy. Someone is trying to paint a picture for an art show or something. He's lousy at it. One person says nothing, and is perfectly happy to let him waste his time painting lousy pictures. The second person mocks him. The third person goes to him and says, "Ahh you're trying to paint a picture. I wasn't that great when I first began either, so let me give you a few tips."

You want Christians to be the like the first guy, you think they are like the second guy, but we should really be like the third guy. See?

We don't WANT THEM to tell us how to "paint our picture" or whatever half-baked analogy you come up with. We want to live life as we want--this is not art, it's life. You do not get better/worse at it, you just live. Telling someone how to live their life is an insult in and of itself, no matter how you dress it up as "tips". It's neat that you want to tell me that I'm going to hell, however, most Christians don't realize that people have their own opinions on things, and that they probably don't care to hear said Christian's perspective on it. You're not always right, and you don't have everything figured out. Let me live my life, and don't insult my intelligence by continuously telling me I'm living my life "wrong" or "in sin" (which is such a defeatist attitude--all humans are inherently wrong and evil. God I hate that.).

Life is way more importent. If you don't want to hear don't listen. Also, don't get mad about us telling other people. You don't represent everyone on the earth.

You know, you can take that "Not all Christians are like that!" and shove it up your ***. I grew up in a Christian church. My entire extended family goes to Christian churches (except my uncle who joined some doomsday cult, but that's another story). I live in a predominantly Catholic town in the Bible Belt. I know what the **** I'm talking about when I say the greater majority of so-called Christians I've encountered have been arrogant, self-righteous bigots that don't give a **** about anyone who doesn't conform to their beliefs.

You are wrong.

Okay, I am free to not listen. But you guys are bordering on harrassment. Christians push their beliefs through the government, through the media, through just about every single outlet they can and shove it down our throats. I'm not representing anyone else, I'm representing me--if you're telling everyone else, you're also shoving the same rhetoric down MY throat.

Life is important--but it's also not your life. It's mine. So leave me alone.

No, you're wrong.

*Let the contradiction wars begin.*




You'd get that in the South. Most people down there are just going to church because their parents went to church, and are racist screw-ups anyways. It's a cultural thing. I would say that 90% of people claming to be Christians aren't.



Just like every other interest group... ever. Don't be mad because people express their opinions, you do it to.

Wouldn't it be that the 90% of people who claim to be Christians are the ones that define who and what Christians are? And why should your interpretation of it be what defines a Christian instead?

Yay, I've created a religious debate.

Most Protestants (not trying to stereotype) and a great amount of Catholics I've met in my life have been elitist jerks. Protestants I know seem to act superior to everyone else, as if they're better than Muslims. I can't quote the scripture verse, but the Bible considers pride a sin. A bunch of Catholics I know are this way as well. But the kids in my church class aren't asses about it. They don't act better than someone else, atleast not that I've seen. I'm not sure how this is, but like Yoshi said the kids seems a more humble than parents.

And on the homosexuality part, this is where the Bible gets confusing. I hear homosexuality is wrong, and then you hear that we should accept them into heaven like the rest of us. If I'm correct, you don't CHOOSE your sexual preference, it just kind of happens. I can't stand going to a school filled with Protestants who act elitist over Muslims and such because they've been fed this propaganda since the cradle, and then go and accuse each other of being homosexual for fun or to tick each other off.


Bottom line, I can't stand elitists. I'm sorry if I offended some Protestants here, but most of the Protestants around here are elitist. My church, not so much. My priest gives good sermons, good examples, and treats everyone equally, not blindly gunning down Muslims or someone.



Exactly.

Who are you to judge my ****ing life? You're not God, and by your own admission you're just as "rotten" as I am. So who gives you the right to try and tell me how to live? Your religion, an institution founded by people just as rotten as the rest of us?

He's just a godbotherer.

"MY INVISIBLE FRIEND CAN BEAT UP YOUR INVISIBLE FRIEND"

See, I don't care if you think I'm wrong. Even though you have no idea what's "right", you somehow think you can shove your beliefs down my throat. You believe in Christianity, fine. But you try to pass laws that support your beliefs. I know, that's how democracy works in a way, but it's a slippery slope. It could (eventually) lead to a theocracy. Yeah, interest groups do it, all of them. But that's the thing--I don't like them either. However, most interest groups have to do with taxes for schools, or social security, or something else that has nothing to do with opinions or beliefs and instead has to do with issues that deal with quality of life in America.

As someone who's lived in the south, I must agree, you get that a lot in the South. However, they believe it, for whatever reasons they want. You're hypocritical there on your high horse "Oh man, 90% of Christians aren't Christians". Then what are they? Are you telling me 90% of about 2 billion people are just pretending to believe in God? Do you know how STUPID that sounds?

But the thing you're forgetting the most is that, yes, I do express my opinion. But me expressing my opinion does not change the rights of any human beings on the planet. People passing laws based on their beliefs do. (and yes, I said planet and meant planet)

Have you ever thought about it? I realize you read it in a book, of course, but I used common sense. You should think about things logically, Obi, not accept them without thought.

Beliefs have nothing to do with logic. That's where people like you stop getting it--beliefs are SOLELY that--beliefs. You don't logic them out or anything like that. You just believe. I respect that he believes in Christianity--just how he should respect that I don't. I don't tell him he's wrong for believing, yet he feels it's neccesary to tell me I'm wrong for not believing.

[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]Beliefs have nothing to do with logic. That's where people like you stop getting it--beliefs are SOLELY that--beliefs. You don't logic them out or anything like that. You just believe. I respect that he believes in Christianity--just how he should respect that I don't. I don't tell him he's wrong for believing, yet he feels it's neccesary to tell me I'm wrong for not believing.[/QUOTE]
This thread is a perfect example of my way of thinking, atleast this last debate over religion is atleast. Yoshi just kind of summed up my way of thinking right there.

I respect someone who believes in something, and thinks it's right. I don't respect someone who goes so far as to claim someone else is wrong because they don't agree.

I don't buy that. The statement "homosexuality is wrong" is blatantly false. You can't just say "but it's what I believe!" and hide behind that like it's some sort of defense. YES, your opinion can be wrong. YES, I will call you out on it if it is. And it is.

You sound like some sort of e-thug cybercop. Seriously. You sound like me two years ago. Get over yourself.

Moral relativity is something you deal with in the real world--I don't respect the passing of laws making homosexuality wrong--but if you believe it's wrong, I'll respect that. There's a difference. You may want to kill someone I really like--as long as you don't, I respect your wish. The minute you act on it, though, that changes everything.

However, before you start trying to debase Moral Relativity, trust me, I understand the (godwin'd) implications of widespread application. You have to take it with a grain of salt. Or a block. It only goes so far.

If someone told me they thought homosexuality was wrong, then yippee for them. But when they tell me I'm wrong for thinking homosexuality is RIGHT, then they look stupid.

Let's try this analogy thing...see if I can make one better than Obi.

Bob goes up to Suzy. Bob says he thinks Sally's shoes are ugly, and Sally thinks they're awesome and voices this opinion. OK, good, they both have an opinion. But even if the majority of people think Sally's shoes are ugly, that does not MAKE them ugly. It's an opinion thing.

What it comes down to in right/wrong is morality and ethics. And this is where I see the problem with my way of thinking, since it justifies anything as long as the person thinks it is right. But even though morality/ethics are personal things, I try to base my morals off of the Bible (for the most part).

This post sucked, and didn't make sense.

[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]You sound like some sort of e-thug cybercop. Seriously. You sound like me two years ago. Get over yourself.

Moral relativity is something you deal with in the real world--I don't respect the passing of laws making homosexuality wrong--but if you believe it's wrong, I'll respect that. There's a difference. You may want to kill someone I really like--as long as you don't, I respect your wish. The minute you act on it, though, that changes everything.

However, before you start trying to debase Moral Relativity, trust me, I understand the (godwin'd) implications of widespread application. You have to take it with a grain of salt. Or a block. It only goes so far.[/QUOTE]

This has nothing to do with moral relativism.

Sexual preference isn't a choice. This is a *fact*. It's not relative.

Then why is it bad if people think it's wrong?

Because that's like thinking being black is bad. YOU CAN'T HELP IT. GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD.

I never argued with you...I know it's not a choice, and I agree that it's not wrong. But people are free to believe anything they want. Apparently this includes thinking that they're some cybercop god who keeps everyone in check. Grow up Free.

Um, I believe the Bible. The Bible says it's wrong. Ergo...



That's like saying fornication isn't a choice. Some people actually go throughout out their lives with out having sex, because they don't want to get married and they don't want to have sex out side of marriage. It's something you actively do. Also, if you really want to, you can channel your sexual desires. It's not genetic so much as the way you decide to think over the course of your life. Now obviously your environment will have a bearing on that, but that can be said about anything.




No, it's not. You're assuming that none of us believe that any of this is really true and it doesn't matter. It does matter. I'm not a fool. It would be much easier for me to let it go and say nothing. We do it because we want to help you. We're not just trying to be mean spirited, that would be idiotic. We could certainly say to our selves, "Forget them, they'll just get mad and it will be a huge pain. Let them go to hell, I don't care." But I don't, because that would be wrong. Surly you can see that. I don't just "believe" in Christianity because I find it a good way to channel some biological need. I believe it to be true in the same way I believe that I am looking at this monitor in front of me. We are not discussing something subjective.

Wow, I almost wish I had enough free time to waste on one of these threads.

But guess what? We already know what you believe! With all the media the religious radicals in this country get, there's not much the general public doesn't know about Christianity. The problem lies in the fact that you try to force everyone to believe the same. You can't see outside your narrow-minded "us and them" point of view, which ,quite simply, does not work in the real world.

No it's not. It's really not at all the same. Of course having sex is a choice. Who you are attracted to, however, is not a choice. Admit it. You. are. wrong.

Not really. Erroneous analogy. It's more like saying "Being Schizophrenic is a choice". It's not. Your brain is wired differently.

Yes, we know you're "trying to help us", but it's not out of pity. It's out of every Christian's desire to spread his religious seed all over, to be dominant. We don't want your help, and neither do we need it. If we want to become Christian, guess what, we can just ask someone how and chances are they'll be able to tell us. Fully 1 billion people PLUS in this world are Catholic, with another billion at least being other denominations. That's 1/3 of the population. Meaning one in every three people is Christian. And a good number of those people are shoving their agenda down my throat. How fair is that?

Free--you're going about this in the wrong manner. This isn't about being right or wrong, it's about accepting each others beliefs. Seriously.

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that Christians think there is a lot at stake, and that is why they attempt to spread their religion.

Another person said that all religions think there is much at stake, but are more respectful.

The problem with this reasoning, I think, is that if these proselyting Christians think that those they cannot help are going to live in eternal damnation, because of what their religious texts and leaders tell them, would it not be more respectful to try to help someone out of that situation?

Also, concerning homosexuality. This is, obviously, not a cut and dry issue. However, what is clear is that homosexuality has been around for as long as human history. Obviously the destruction of Sodom and Gumorrah suggests there was in Biblical times and before. In 14th and 15th century Florence, there was such widespread sodomy that the government opened brothels to try to persuade men to sleep with women. In some indigenous American cultures, homosexuals were called "two spirits" and often served both as a male and female, wore both genders' clothes, and were frequently the "shaman" of their tribes. Homosexuality is a fact of human society. The question is, will other humans recognize that fact.

I would like to pose some questions: if homosexuality is all nurture, how did it begin? And how did multiple societies develop it? Why is it that only Judeo-Christian-Muslim society rejects it outright?

Just some things I was thinking about.