[QUOTE=Jerry Seinfeld]Oh, no thanks, I second-hand smoke two packs a day.[/QUOTE]

<3.

Wow, since when did a little plant become the temptations of Christ? Right now, all of you who smoke are what? In your 20's? with a roomate and many friends who still smoke? What can you expect really? It's going to be there in your lives for a while more, and when the opportunity presents itself there are going to be times where you want to smoke. The best thing to do is just "go with it". Enjoy the experience when you can, no bars holding you back. The last thing you really want to be thinking about is "I shouldn't of done this, this was stupid", you're just going to leave on a bad note. You'll keep on thinking about the good times you used to have with MJ, and keep on trying to get that back, but because you're getting mad at yourself for smoking in the first place, "that last good time" won't ever happen. The less you do it, the less you'll have the want to keep doing it, it will eventually fade out of your life completely, it's not hard.

For you all you more "intentioned" smokers ( thinkers, artists, musicians,etc) who want to quit:
Just feed your head. Some of you smoke to open the doors of creativity or connection with whatever medium you're expressing yourself with. MJ offers that connection, and when you really connect with what you want to, you just want to keep this state of mind forever. If you're trying to quit, try and find that "mind food" elsewhere, open that connection within yourself. You ever been perfectly sober and at a concert or jam and it reaches that point where everything seems perfect? Just utter bliss? That's what you need to find. Once you get in that state, you're afraid to do anything to it, surely not smoke. Smoking offers a fast ticket to "that place", but it isn't hard to find it elsewhere. This is probobly not coming off as coherent at all, but I hope this example helps in what I'm trying to say: I used to take LSD because when I was on it, I was able to draw really well. I was terrible at drawing otherwise, so it was great when I was on it and all of a sudden it seemed like a door had been unlocked in my mind and all of a sudden I could draw well. Soon was able to find and connect with that place inside myself, without having to use LSD, and now I can make better works without LSD that I could with(and it's a lot more comfortable too ).

So you don't really have to "feed your head" with MJ anymore, you can find other means of fufilling your minds need to connect with that place.

Believe me, with the exception of the only crazy person on this thread ( :p ), MJ addiction is nothing at all. Nothing. I've been through an opium addiction previously( which was not hard to stop at all ), and that's still nothing compared to some of the people I've known who've gone through cutting heroin habits.

That's the kind of attitude that gets you hooked for life. My druggie room-mate is in his 40's, so I've got a glimpse of a possible future, and it is not pretty.

I had quit weed for two years, started again occassionally (once a week, not more) before Christmas. After the holidays, I had a really bad experience with some MJ laced with cocaine. Had I known, I wouldn't have smoked it, but no one one told me what was in there. I had an anxiety attack in the subway station and fainted while the train was pulling in. Luckily my friend was there to take care of me.

Never touching any of that **** again. I was fine for the two years without, I don't need it.

Nice job!





Shentuck.

"Hooked for life"? Dude, I've known people who have that EXACT attitude--and quit a while later because it "just wasn't right for them". That's ignorance talking there.

Its not ignorance, it's an observation of facts.
If you keep the attitude of "I can always stop later" then you may never stop.

Yes, you may indeed know some people who have simply stopped later, but what applies for some doesn't apply for all.

You have shown your own ignorance right there.

Whatever your methods are, congrats on being clean. Your brain thanks you.

...that's not the attitude he was saying to adopt. He's saying don't hate the drug. And sometimes people CAN just stop later--I'm pretty much cutting off all drug activity before I leave high school, starting slowly with pot and liquor. First I made it a weekend thing, and now I'm quitting all together. The attitude he was saying you should adopt is enjoy it while it's there, and don't force yourself to quit. Since it's a non-addicting substance (for non-addictive personalities) then there's no reason to quit, really, unless you're just uncontrollable on it.

As someone who's done his fair share of drugs, quit his fair share, and put limits for himself I can honestly say it IS possible. People who have only dabbled in it or who haven't done them at all say drugs are bad, drugs are evil, drugs are addictive, blah blah blah. It's all about your personality. Like matrix said, he's quit opiates with addiction already set in. I don't know if you know this, but that is one of the hardest things to quit out there. Seriously, the only one here who's ignorant on the subject is you, no offense.

[QUOTE=Lord Kuat]Whatever your methods are, congrats on being clean. Your brain thanks you.[/QUOTE]
Pot doesn't cause brain damage in any form or fashion...so I don't think his brain really cares one way or another.

[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]Pot doesn't cause brain damage in any form or fashion...so I don't think his brain really cares one way or another.[/QUOTE]

Says you. Do you know what a cannabinoid receptor is? Do you know where it is located? Do you know what pathways it is involved in? Do you know what long term use does?

Seriously, stop being a know-it-all. You don't know jack, don't act like you do. To say that you know what science itself hasn't concluded is a bit arrogant.

This is an awesome thread.

Personally, I've never touched marijauna or cigarettes. The only intoxicating thing I've ever taken into my system is a bit of beer, but certainly not enough to get me anywhere close to drunk. I'm talking like...two glasses full. And it tasted like ****.

People (kids, really ) call me a "wuss for not being cool and gettin stoned", but I honestly don't give a fat crap. They're the weak ones if they're giving in to the pressure to smoke pot and get smashed. Hell, I know a guy (let's call him Jason) who'se only 15 and weed is like a small snack to him, compared to his supply of crack, meth, LSD, you name it, he does it. I've even witnessed him drop some acid once. In all honesty, he is one of the most unstable, unpreductive people I know.

So I've witnessed what all that **** does to your body, mind, and life, and I'm smart enough to steer clear of it. DON'T GET ME WRONG, I have been extreeemely templed in the past. At times when I would be sitting around, just chillin with my friends watching TV while they take turns taking hits, I've come within an inch of trying some weed. Like, I literally had the doobie in my hand, preparing to smoke it, when I realized how dumb I was and told myself..."JOEL! What the **** are you doing? Put that **** down, you could get addicted! You dumbass..." That's literally what I thought, and I'm glad I didn't give in. I'm not gonna smoke anything. All the more weed for the weak-minded individuals who do.

As for people who have the sense to quit after years of using not just weed, but crack, cocaine, etc.....I have ENORMOUS respect for you. You've been there and back, and were smart enough to stop killing yourself slowly.

As far as I'm concerned, when you're born you start to die, so why speed it up?

[QUOTE=Lord Kuat]Says you. Do you know what a cannabinoid receptor is? Do you know where it is located? Do you know what pathways it is involved in? Do you know what long term use does?

Seriously, stop being a know-it-all. You don't know jack, don't act like you do. To say that you know what science itself hasn't concluded is a bit arrogant.[/QUOTE]
There's no conclusive evidence that it causes brain damage. And if you know what a cannabinoid receptor is and if it gets damaged in the process of smoking marijuana, please, enlighten me instead of pseudo-scientific babble that is just mainly name-dropping of some pieces of the body. It's like saying "Oh yeah? Drinking coke doesn't cause heart attacks? So do you know what a heart is?"

Give me more info, and not pages of info. Tell me, because I don't need to be poring through health manuals meant for people much more educated in the field than I am trying to make sense of it.

Okay, not only is this HIGHLY offensive, but considering I respect people who don't do it's options to not smoke/drink, why can't you respect ours as not being "weakness"? I can respect you not wanting to do it, and I don't mind, but don't think of it as whoever does do it being "weak minded". More like "open minded". It's not that those who don't do it aren't open minded, but those who do are open to new things. Of course some people only do it because of peer pressure or something like that, but that doesn't mean everyone does it.

And realize that just because you smoke pot doesn't mean you'll eventually smoke crack, meth, or anything like that. I know people who only smoke pot, and have only smoked pot for years. They may have dabbled in other things (done it once or twice), but have never done it in extensive, addictive manners. And LSD has absolutely no adverse physical effects (though before someone jumps down my throat, yes there are documented cases of permanent psychosis).

[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]There's no conclusive evidence that it causes brain damage. And if you know what a cannabinoid receptor is and if it gets damaged in the process of smoking marijuana, please, enlighten me instead of pseudo-scientific babble that is just mainly name-dropping of some pieces of the body. It's like saying "Oh yeah? Drinking coke doesn't cause heart attacks? So do you know what a heart is?"

Give me more info, and not pages of info. Tell me, because I don't need to be poring through health manuals meant for people much more educated in the field than I am trying to make sense of it.[/QUOTE]
#1
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16148447&query_hl=4&itool=pubmed_docsum

#2
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16527424&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum

The cannabinoid receptor CB1 is located in various areas in the brain. One of these areas, the hippocampus, is the "center for learning and memory". Basically, it is involved in consolidation of memory, spacial location, ect.

#1: A cannabinoid agonist (such as THC) has been shown to basically suppress neural function in this region, by inhibiting excitatory neurotransmitter release (there are inhibitory NT's as well; this works on excitatory). This has been shown with THC.

#2: This one shows developmental concerns. THC injected perinataly causes deficiencies involving cogntive imparement.

Now, you can very easily say "prenatal and short time use, yeah, but who says that there are lasting effects brought on by chronic use of deh chronic?" That's a good question. Use of SUPER agonists to the CB1 receptor (over 100x more powerful than THC) can cause permanent LTD (long term depression, bad thing) in portions of the limbic system (of the brain, which includes the hippocampus). But that's not THC, which is found in MJ. You can't really truly compare the two; it shows a possibility, but THC is much weaker. Keep in mind this is done on rats who have a short lifespan. You can't study a rat on 10 years of THC use, they'd be dead by 3 years. The studies just show possibilities, but I could not say THC does it, at all even.

One point is that short term malfunctions are shown, and usually the way the brain or any system works is that if you give chronic doses of an agonist, it messes with the current internal system. There are endocannabinoids (reefer to Sci Am's article), and possibly the chronic use of THC makes the body dependent on it, and it downregulates the endogenous source. It just takes lots of time, which is why rat studies use the super agonist.

Also, it's higher mental function, which is difficult to assess small changes in. Forgetting a little bit more or not being at your "peak" isn't something one can quantify. If can be a very small change; damage was done, but you just wouldn't notice because the brain has enough resilience to cover it up a bit.

In the end, I don't know, and can't say for certainty that THC causes brain damage. It may. It's likely to me based on other systems, but that's a "gut feeling". But nothing using THC has shown that it does, mainly because of a time frame issue, and the fact it's higher mental function. However, you on the other hand cannot say with certainty that it doesn't cause damage.

I mean, there are studies (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11233294&query_hl=7&itool=pubmed_DocSum) That say that yes, indeed, chronic THC causes problems, but there are ones that counter them. Sadly, it's a politically charged area, so I'm going to stick with my "it's likely it does, but not for 100%" stance.

Also, there are possible positive benefits, such as possible inhibition of neural degeneration in MS, and of course antidepressant effects. There are also other weird occurances, like neurogenesis WITHOUT differentiation. New cells, but how they get used... who knows? Just thought I'd add that.

Oh yeah, the super agonist is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HU-210

Also, I forgot to mention tolerance buildup, which also effects use of endocannabinoids. Anyway, I could add to this for days, but it's long already.

Basic point: THC short term causes short term mental dysfunction. Long term has not been shown with THC but with other agonists. THC can "fool" with internal biology of endocannabinoids. No study has conclusively shown brain damage with THC, and studies regarding benefits are not conclusive either (except the antidepressive part). It's good to play it safe and not use it, because there are no real appreciable benefits to the common person, and there are potential risks.

On a tangent, chronic MJ is relatively minor compared to chronic Alcohol and Tabbaco, and hell, even unhealty food. I'd be happy if the only unhealthy sin people took part in was MJ.

[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]Okay, not only is this HIGHLY offensive, but considering I respect people who don't do it's options to not smoke/drink, why can't you respect ours as not being "weakness"? I can respect you not wanting to do it, and I don't mind, but don't think of it as whoever does do it being "weak minded". More like "open minded". It's not that those who don't do it aren't open minded, but those who do are open to new things. Of course some people only do it because of peer pressure or something like that, but that doesn't mean everyone does it.

And realize that just because you smoke pot doesn't mean you'll eventually smoke crack, meth, or anything like that. I know people who only smoke pot, and have only smoked pot for years. They may have dabbled in other things (done it once or twice), but have never done it in extensive, addictive manners. And LSD has absolutely no adverse physical effects (though before someone jumps down my throat, yes there are documented cases of permanent psychosis).[/QUOTE]

Why should it be highly offensive to you? It's my opinion, and I'm sharing what I know and how I've seen weed and other drugs affect someone's life. Okay, so I didn't exactly specify what groups of people I was talking about, the weak-minded or the open-minded. I was mainly talking about the weak-minded, the people who do it only because other people do.

All I'm trying to say is that I believe pot messes with your brain, which in turn screws around with your life. I realize that all people are different and have varying tolerances to the drug, but we all are human, and it is a harmful substance. Whether or not you think it's harmful to the brain, you have to admit it's an added, unnecessary dependency in the lives of those who smoke it. One needs money to pay for one's addiction, and once they try to quit they will probably realize how difficult it is.

I'm not going to physically stop someone from smoking pot, but I can speak my mind about it. I respect people who choose not to slowly ravage their minds, whether they're doing it just because of peer pressure or because they're open-minded. Hopefully you can respect that.

[QUOTE=Lord Kuat]info[/QUOTE]
Thanks. I'm glad you actually outlined what studies you knew of. I agree that I can't say it for sure doesn't cause brain damage, but I was just making the point that there are no conclusive studies linking it to brain damage. It's good to know though. I wasn't trying to act like a "know it all", but a lot of people are ignorant and rather obtuse in the areas of drugs, especially weed. There are those who think it's physically addictive still, despite many many studies which prove the opposite. It's only mentally addictive, which could prove a problem to those with addictive personalities.


I'm glad it was a misunderstanding, as you're not the kind of guy that I think would just lump people into that category, but I think you're also misunderstanding weed and its effects. It's not an addiction, it's a hobby, for most who use it. You're not dependent on it.

[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]It's only mentally addictive, which could prove a problem to those with addictive personalities.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, MJ has nill effect on the brain reward pathway, unlike other illicit drugs. As you said, it's a mental addiction. I think people don't realize the difference. With the others, hell even caffeine, you get physical illness due to the physical addition during withdrawl. MJ, however, does not.

Makes me wonder why MJ is illegal sometimes when other, worse "drugs" are legal.

On a tangent, this was always interesting to me, take it as you will. Spiders on various drugs, making webs (from here: http://www.caffeineweb.com/):

Yeah, I saw that. There's another one that has Meth, LSD, Mescaline, and Psylocibin on it, but I can't find it. It's really weird to see the Meth one.

Hey, I remeber that thread.

you know this had to degrade into a righteous thread on the reasons to stop smoking pot.

maybe you all deserve your addictions.

Dude, that was kinda the point from the beginning. It's a thread about not smoking pot. How can it degrade into the same topic.

[quote=The Very First Post]Marijuana will fork your brain up. Bad. Really bad. Your body becomes dependant on it because your brain says "Hey, I don't need to produce this hormone/chemical anymore, because the body is getting it elsewhere."[/quote]

March 9th -" Frequent Cannabis Use Not Associated With Cognitive Decline... "

March 2nd - "Cannabis Use Not Linked to So-Called Amotivational Disorder"

Feb 16th - " Cannabinoid Offers Cardioprotection "

Dec 22 - "Synthetic Cannabinoid Is Neuroprotective "

Oct 20 - "Endocannabinoid System May Play Role In Mantaining Homeostasis"

Oct 13 - "Cannaninoids Promote Neurogenesis in the Brain "

June 2 - "Cannabinoid Neuroprotective Against Celebral Infarction"

April 14 - " Heavy Cannabis Use Not Associated With Cognitive Deficits "

Feb 10 - "Science Refutes Latest Marijuana and Cognition Claim "

July 7 - " Decreased Depression in Cannabis Users"

May 26 - "Cannabinoids May Play Role In Treating Depression"

This is all within the past 2 years, it goes to show that even now there is still much work to be done in creating RELIABLE studies with illegal psychoactives.

At this point, I really think it's almost impossible to hold up an argument against cannabis use because of it's negative effects. It's now more of a question of what we deem as moral behavior.

Yeah? And you're intruding on my right to live however the **** I please.

**** the anti-smoking pinkos.

Get this people. WE KNOW IT'S BAD FOR US. I mean, can you ****ing believe it?

We didn't even care that the tobacco companies lied, at all. Wanna know why? We understood, from the get go, THAT INHALING SMOKE IS BAD FOR YOU.

IMAGINE ****ING THAT.

Wanna know something else? 99.9% of the people that smoke, don't ****ing care that it's bad for them. Seriously. So stop bring it up, you're harshing my ****ing calm.

Your sources totally don't have an agenda and I approve.

Oh, wait...

Also, some (on that page, it seems ALL) of their citations lead to dead ends (read: http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=51050. These guys are as reliable and trustworthy as much Jack Chick is an atheist and isn't a nutjob.

Find sources that an average person can respect, not weed420toke.org.

(However, my personal belief is that drugs should be legal. Let people do what they want to themselves, as long as it doesn't harm others. That said, that site is pure unfiltered garbage)

Edit: Seriously, the more I look, the more dead ends I find. Do they not know how to cite articles? I've went through three and I can't read their backing because I get 404's.

It's a good thing you know what you're talking about. LSD is acid, and it's not really a big thing to drop it, especially if one has a "supply" of crack and meth.

And to the weak-willed: Leave God out of this. He's got better things to do than help your silly *** not smoke weed.

I agree somewhat with Rob.

When I go out to a restaurant with non-smoking friends, I'll gladly sit in the non-smoking section. I don't smoke where I'm not supposed to. I don't smoke in my car when other people are there. I smoke on my balcony and outside when I'm in public, and if I'm smoking while I'm walking, I'll walk on the far side of the sidewalk so that I'm not bothering people. And yet complete strangers will go out of their way to ***** at me.

Example, the other day I was outside of the store I used to work at, waiting for my buddy to finish his shift, and I was having a smoke. Two girls headed into the store looked at me and said, "You shouldn't be smoking here," to which I replied, "I'm outside, freezing my *** off, would you rather I smoke in the store?" One of the girls said, "You can't it's against the law," and I cut her off and said, "It sure the hell isn't out here though."

I WAS ****ING OUTSIDE! It's not like I was smoking next to the door of the store or anything, I was a good 10-15 feet from the door. ****ing Christ.

I feel like there's a certain distinction between people who take occasional hits and people who are high all the time and have forgotten who they were when they were sober. I think that is very much a personality sort of thing, too, some people just don't jive with who they are in our society.

I have never smoked cigs or pot and don't have the desire to do so, so I can't knock it, but I can still see, and from what I've seen, it certainly seems like something that controls you instead of vice versa...

...and now the girl who sat down next to me reeks of smoke.

[QUOTE=Lord Kuat]Your sources totally don't have an agenda and I approve.

Oh, wait...

Also, some (on that page, it seems ALL) of their citations lead to dead ends (read: http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=51050. These guys are as reliable and trustworthy as much Jack Chick is an atheist and isn't a nutjob.

Find sources that an average person can respect, not weed420toke.org.

(However, my personal belief is that drugs should be legal. Let people do what they want to themselves, as long as it doesn't harm others. That said, that site is pure unfiltered garbage)

Edit: Seriously, the more I look, the more dead ends I find. Do they not know how to cite articles? I've went through three and I can't read their backing because I get 404's.[/QUOTE]

Well since all those articles are archived, I wouldn't be suprised if the original addresses of their sources changed, they have no control over it. If you really want to dig deep, look up the original sources yourself, they'll be around somewhere.

I'm very sorry that you cannot get pass the organization's goal of reforming marijuana laws, immediately labeling them as some stoner garbage. I'm sorry if "Journal of the International Neuropsychological Society", "Psychopharmacology", "Canadian Medical Association Journal","Journal of Neuroscience.", "National Academy of Sciences", "Archives of General Psychiatry", and "American Journal of Addictions", to name a few, aren't good enough for you. They obviously cite reputable sources, they're just reporting the information. Of course their organization's intention is biased, or their choice to display news that helps their cause. The information itself though, is not biased, it's information that was concluded by people OTHER them themselves, they are just relaying the information. You're being biased in your immediate judgement to not look up the organization itself and see that's a highly regarded 36 year old organization, and has played a huge role not only in marijuana research, but in supporting marijuana related legislature. You've just been citing irrelevant information to try and discredit my (reputable) sources and debunk my argument. You have yet to give any information which actually goes against the information found in the articles.

Maybe I just have more understanding friends but I've never really had anyone go down that line when I've told them I don't want to smoke weed. Sure you get people who are interested as to why you won't actually touch it at all, but thats about it.

Having said that, had been tempted recently a couple of times to try it, so hey, maybe I will

I'm not seeing it :P.

Ha ha, Yoshi's a pothead. This explains a lot.

Wrong.

70 percent of current adult smokers would like to quit.

Why don't they? Because of the addictive nature of nicotine.

You see, part of the issue isn't that cigarettes are "bad for people," it's that they also happen to be enormously addicting to a point where many people can't quit even though they'd like to. And with all the 16-year olds that start smoking (and most people start in their teens) that generally don't realize the extremely addictive nature of nicotine and end up getting hooked over time to a point where they can no longer quit and need to live with their ignorant decisions as teenagers (for the rest of their lives in many cases) - yes, I believe there is problem here somewhere.

Strange... a while back on penn and teller they said that marijuana did nothing bad to people if they controled their use... I'm glad I did not believe them.

people are making a big deal out of this. I stopped pot because i chose to, not because it was ruining my life. my life was fine with or without pot. quitting was just turning the page and growing up a little. everyone has their reasons to stop. you just need to find the right time and right reasons and it's so much easier. if you feel it's wrong to stop or don't really need to, then don't. like matrixhacker said, go with it. I went with it, now i feel like turning the page and focusing on other things.

And being a pothead doesn't exactly make everything you say worthless, really.

Rob, your argument only goes so far. I've lived with 2 smokers almost all my life, and it's hell. I understand they don't care that it's bad for them. I understand they don't care about my health. But let me tell you there were times when I felt so pissed because I had to breathe in their smoke. We finally moved into a place where there was no smoking in the house, so it's pretty much a non-issue now. But if you have kids, for the love of christ, DO NOT SMOKE. I implore you.


I've smoked pot for a couple years, but I'm not a pothead. I don't get high every day. I'm barely even a weekend warrior as far as weed goes. But I just recently quit.

And it doesn't explain anything except for the fact that I have an open mind. Unlike some 19 year old ex-mormon jaded teenagers who think they know everything. Not naming any names.

Hey dude, link me the articles they address. I'm saying they are

DEAD

LINKS

Also, it's possible to skew data and warp it to fit any need. One can't look farther than evolution, which was used to eventually support eugenics. I'm saying that I can't find what articles they are talking about. Sorry, the links are dead, and that's that. It would be nice if they provided the titles, so even if the link was dead, I'd be able to search for it.

And age doesn't give credence to a group. The KKK is plenty old.

You lose.

Good day sir.

Whoah, I'm 19? ****, did you invent a time machine dude? Because I just recovered the two ****tiest years of my life. Sweet!

P.s.: I fail to see how bringing up a group I am no longer affiliated with has to do with anythi..... oh **** :p

I don't like smoking because it's sick. I don't like breathing in other people's smoke, and I can ALWAYS still smell it on myself afterwards, even if I'm just hanging out in a bowling alley and not even with people who are smoking, I still smell it on my clothes and hands later on. I think it's very rude to smoke around other people without asking them, too.

[QUOTE=Lord Kuat]Hey dude, link me the articles they address. I'm saying they are

DEAD

LINKS

Also, it's possible to skew data and warp it to fit any need. One can't look farther than evolution, which was used to eventually support eugenics. I'm saying that I can't find what articles they are talking about. Sorry, the links are dead, and that's that. It would be nice if they provided the titles, so even if the link was dead, I'd be able to search for it.

And age doesn't give credence to a group. The KKK is plenty old.

You lose.

Good day sir.[/QUOTE]

Yay for looking things up! Wow, at the bottom of the first link I sent you, there was a magical page that summed up everything about Cannabis and it's effects on the brain. And looky here.....all of the links work! Citations, Wow!

Did you even look for the articles? If you were really hell bent on trying to disprove my information just because of the website it was posted on, you could at least do a simple google search for the sources.

Oh, and so you don't have to break a sweat and look for the page I was talking about, it's right here, remember to click on the word "here", can you do that?

I don't know what you're trying to "win" here, or what I supposedly "lost" at, but can you start actually discussing the issue?