No, it's because I'm not fascist enough to appreciate jokes about the intelligence of certain population segments.

That has nothing to do with fashism. ORJ_JoS must now be added to the graph.

No, all it implies is that black music is one of the pinnacles of stupidity.

Look who's talking, Mr. "fashism"... perhaps you need to be added to the graph, too.

I may be fascist, but at least I'm smrt!

Plus, the graph was supposed to (I think) be a lighthearted reflection of the idea that "things were better back in the day." In our history books, we study about the great scientific achievements of generations on the bold frontier of vast swaths of knowledge. Even today, significant scientific progress and discovery is being made (e.g. the fields of quantum physics, nanotechnology, biochemistry).

Certainly people aren't becoming any "dumber"; however, it is easy to think that the average citizen is less sophisticated than past average citizens merely because sophisticated types survive longer in posterity (with notable exceptions such as Genghis Khan, but I would hardly consider him dimwitted) and older things are generally seen as somehow "better' or "classier".

Sorry if you're a hippie or a rapster, but both cultures are stereotyped as embracing social rebellion and drug use, both of which are, in turn, not seen by "square society" as very "smart decisions". The fact that these trends have altered the social consciousness and gained a massive following despite labels of being "stupid" or "unsophisticated" means that such labels can be applied to a greater majority of people. It's just a modern-day transposition of high-class disdain for a peasant majority that's seen as brutish and dirty.

Not so much fact, but rather a very conservative point of view, if you ask me. Without social rebellion and its aspects, like drugs, there would never be any change. No art, no 'free thinkers', no philosophy, no resistance against the current state of affairs, ergo, no change. Evolution of mankind as such, and the creative use of intelligence is much better served by conditions of 'social rebellion' than under restrictive conservative rule. And no, I'm neither hippie nor rapper, but that is beside the point.



I disapprove of such elitist sentiments. There is a certain fascist quality to it. Hence my remark.

well ya know what im offended by all of this being "offended" seriously, get off it.

on a different note...

3.) A guy shouldn't have to be possesive of his girl. If she really is into the guy, she's not going to buy into another guy flirting with her.

i would have to dissagree somewhat, just speaking from experience, there are some instances where being possesive, or i guess protective rather is quite appropriate: a couple weeks ago my girl and i went toa club and this idiotic drunk guy comes up behind her and starts rubbing up on her, i push him back and yell "what the hell is your problem!?" to which he responds, "what? i can grind up on a b***h if i want to" fortunatly security grabbed him and threw him out immediatly.

also having gone through the whole casual sex stint, i think that if thats how you want to spend the rest of your life, just casually screwing then its perfectly ok, just make sure your protected. and for god sake! dont get anyone pregnant! however, if you ever plan on having a meaningful lasting relationship or possibly getting married, then trust me its going to come backand bite you in the ***.

That's not so much being possesive as being protective, and that's fine when with in reason.



Which is idiotic in and of itself for a great many reasons.

Alright, I'll take this up (mind you, in a perfectly friendly and neutral manner). I would contend that things might be "getting worse." Certainly life might be dull and even more apparently meaningless without that radical element of art, but why should we have social rebellion? If we need to change, why can't this change be enacted through prudent social reform... instead of idolizing gangsters, objectification of the body, and substance abuse?

Hippies and rappers aren't free thinkers or intellectual. They are by and large angry idiots who expresses their anger by taking drugs and whining in their unique ways.

Today though, Rappers by and large seem to be your basic capitalist who cons a bunch of idiots into thinking they are a rebellious and shocking just for the money. They are not all as stupid as they say they are.

Hippies on the other hand just can't let the 70s go. They are trapped in a state of arrogant self righteous ignorance.

Another group of stupid people are protesters. Well not, all protesters, but most of them. These are people with the IQ of peas who get all riled up about something because someone on TV told them to. They they go somewhere block traffic, and shout inane phrases over and over like they are supposed to be arguments or something. then there's a lot of anger and idiotic indigence.

Change isn't always for the better, and does not always equal progress. I wish people would remember this.

i thought the whole point of hippies was to not be arrogant and self righteous... and i thought they did it in the 60s...

That little graph really changed the flow of the thread, didn't it?

Well, while we're on the topic, I should say that there's two types of hippies:

1. The good kind; the pacifist neighbor next door who peacefully protests any sign of conflict in the world, and who doesn't shove it down your throat.

2. The bad kind; Mr. "peace, love, dope....dope..dope dope dope dope!!!!!" The guy who's always drunk off his arse and so high from his homemade doobie he could touch the ceiling (if, of course, he could even get up off his hemp-encrusted buttocks). And then, in this alien-state, he goes and robs your house (killing your cat in the process because it "looked like Richard Nixon") all for the fact that he's dirt poor and will never amount to anything in life, save for picking up empty soda cans behind the Wal-Mart down the street. The one good thing in his life is the marijuana plant he hid in the parking lot folliage. :p

And then there's the grey-matter hippies in between those two extremes.

[QUOTE=Mr. Stafford]i thought the whole point of hippies was to not be arrogant and self righteous... and i thought they did it in the 60s...[/QUOTE]

It was really just a bunch of teens who a had a problem with authority and decided to go take drugs. And you'll find if you push people like that hard enough, they'll become self-righteous about not being self righteous. (It was in the seventies too.)


EDIT: And yes, I generalize, obviously.

And you smell of wee too. I can smell it from here.

No worries, I am a friendly type. Your well-worded argument inspired me to reply with my take on things. Also, keep in mind that English is not my native language, so my choice of words may sometimes be off. I may come off harsher than I intend to.

The way I see it, social rebellion is an inavoidable, natural aspect of society. The urge to stray from the beaten path, to be different from the 'mainstream'. Especially in our highly individualized western societies.

And the way you put it: "idolizing gangsters, objectification of the body, and substance abuse", you need to keep in mind that you're judging these aspects by the moral standards of your own culture. You need to see every movement in its proper context.

One aspect of that context is that in our western societies, with its christian and humanist standards, we value the spiritual over the material. We tend to look down on the 'worldly aspects' of life. In cultures with African roots, the body is considered very important. It is the link with mother earth, from which we were all physically born. Sexuality and life itself are celebrated more openly, while 'western cultures' tend to deny sexuality. Because it is something of a taboo for us, we are shocked to see the opposite.

Rap is like Rock 'n' Roll. It's rebellion against the establishment. And black people in America, with a history of slavery and poverty, have good reason to be rebellious. And what better way is there to shock the white establishment than by "idolizing gangsters, objectification of the body, and substance abuse"?

On the other hand, not all rap is the same. There is also a lot of stuff out there what people call 'conscious' rap. Intelligent lyrics about intelligent subjects. Perhaps not the stuff you see on MTV everyday, but still.

Change is not always for the better. Rab is an unintelligent poorly articulated act of rebellion which is not any improvement at all. It's simply about expressing anger. Of course if you throw out all the standards, who's to say what's better?

actually, its just music, take it how you want to.

Obi, you lose. You lose so hard you need to get slapped in the face repeatedly with a sock full of ball bearings.

If you're not willing to take my word for it, ask me to explain it and I will show you why you lose. Suffice to say most of the rappers I've heard are smarter than you. :p

Anyone could said that about rock, metal, punk, and an other form of music. That comment shows your complete ignorance when it comes to the genre of rap, where rap came from, and what it's about. It's quite obvious your exposure to rap is what they show on MTV and what the hip hop stations might play on the radio.

You've never even ****ing HEARD good rap. Well, I take that back, you may have heard one tupac song, but it was probably against your will, and you didn't listen to it. You want some good rap?

[url]www.myspace.com/brotherali[/url]
[url]www.myspace.com/CunninLynguists[/url]
[url]www.myspace.com/sagefrancis[/url]

Listen and get educated kid.


Poorly too. You know what really pisses me off? People who think they know everything about the world and every culture without actually knowing anything. Like you. You're what, 15? 16? And you think you have everything down, everything figured out, and you have every single era of the past figured out eh? Being a "hippie" was all about taking drugs and rebelling eh?

No. It was about mind expansion, and being more relaxed about life instead of all the people in the 50s who were so concerned about their image, their future, so up tight. Hippies decided that what was important in life were the experiences, not how you go about life and conduct yourself so much. And that's where drugs came in. And really, all that hippies advocated were weed and acid, two drugs which have next to no negative side effects, especially compared to alcohol and tobacco, two legal drugs.

You don't know ****, so stop acting like you do. People like you piss me off more than anything, because you're the kind of people that won't hire a kid who has a mohawk because it's a "bad image", or won't hire a black kid from the hood because he "might be trouble". You're the kind of person that's so closed-minded you'd never see the amazing people out there in EVERY subculture, only the worst examples, and you'd make your judgements based on that.

To be honest, I've never hated a person on this board more than I hate you.

NO OBI DONT DO IT, IF YOU LISTEN TO THOSE YOU WILL BECOME A DRUG ADDICT REBEL, YOU WILL START SAYING DIRTY WORDS TO YOUR MOTHER AND THINKING THAT SOME LIBERAL IDEAS AREN'T TOO BAD!!!

And for everyone else, rap isn't the only kind of "black music" but yay for sterotypes.

You know what's funny? Brother Ali, Aesop Rock and Sage Francis are the two rappists I adore the most, and they're all white.

But Jews have been killed and enslaved for centuries, and they don't feel the need to make bad music.

You're now number two on my hated list. Congrats, as you and Obi are the only two who have actually made the list and can still post.

You know, technically hip hop is not "black music." It was a mix of people from many ethnic and cultural backgrounds from the very beginning.

[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]You're now number two on my hated list. Congrats, as you and Obi are the only two who have actually made the list and can still post.[/QUOTE]

Chill out dude, it was a joke. You've got some serious anger problems.

PS. I like Immortal Technique

I don't have anger problems. I have problems with ignorant people.

But sorry I didn't detect the joke.

Besides, if I was serious, you'd seriously hate me because I don't enjoy rap music? What does that say about you?

I don't care if you enjoy it. But calling it bad is ignorant as hell.

Well my bad for choosing the wrong word. That being said, I do enjoy some rap artists (such as Kanye West and Immortal Technique).

Speaking of Jewish guys and rap music, what was the name of that one Jewish rapper/regae guy who was on the radio a couple of months ago?

It's an ego thing really. Most people like to think of themselves as enjoying "all good music," so that if there's something they don't enjoy, they excuse themselves by saying it's bad, even if it isn't. Took me a long time to overcome this myself, but most people don't bother. :p

ALSO: You should watch this because it has Dilated Peoples, who are awesome, and Kanye West, who you like already >.>

all music is crappy, crap people like music

Have you even heard Israeli pop? ye gads....

Obviously someone who disses an entire genre of art/music is "ignorant" because they haven't had enough range of experience to know the entire genre thoroughly. This lack of experience probably comes from a poor first experience or other people they trust telling them it sucks.

I don't agree with putting people down because they don't like certain genres.... being obnoxious about this dislike, however is another thing. I personally can't appreciate rap, and it's totally my loss. I don't want to spend the time to udnerstand the context they're coming from and appreciate the feelings they're trying to express in their media of music. I'm totally down with them wanting to express themselves, though. If people want to listen to rap, that's cool, I'll probably just end up excusing myself, though, because I like different kinds of music.

I'm just saying I think it's possible for someone to be turned off by a certain mentality/lifestyle/medium of expression without necessarily being bigoted or igorant. Having an open mind does not necessarily imply that you have to like everything, so long as you can explain why you might not like something.

Way to de-rail/rape a thread.

Anyway....

BACK TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD MEANING!?!?!

if(getThingFlags(source) & 0x8){
  do her}
elseif(getThingFlags(source) & 0x4){
  do other babe}
else{
  do a dude}

Thanks for agreeing with me?

You do realize that many rappers aren't sincere don't you? You can't really make a blanket statement about rap one way or another. Just because you might listen to well thought out rap doesn't mean that most of it is done with any sort of philosophy in mind. A great deal of it is marketed to unintelligent people who like to be angry about nothing because they like being angry. I don't know what percentage of it is that way and what percentage of it is the other way. I'm just saying that the angry "being as disgusting as I possibly can" rap is either the product of a drugged up moron, or someone who is capitalize on the people who will buy it. I'm not making a blanket statement about all rap because that would be stupid. It's a form of music. I'm not criticizing the genre I'm criticizing is certain segment of the genre.




Ahh, yes coming from someone at the ripe old age of 17.

You see, there is a difference between the thought behind a movement and what the average person gets out of that movement. The smart people handle the philosophy, and every one else hops on because they like what it lets them do. This may seem a bit cynical of course, but from what I've seen, it's true. The originators of the hippie movement probably did a fair deal of thinking and even though I think they are wrong, they still deserve a respectful conversation, because they are a) willing to engage in such a conversation and b) have thought about their position.

Unfortunately a great deal of teens joined the movement because they didn't want to handle authority. Especially parental authority. These people were just as full of anger and hate as anyone else, and were largely hypocritical, as which is to be expected given their motives. Many Vietnam war protests are indicative of this. They were filled will loud ignorant people who enjoyed feeling self-righteous. (Incidentally I don't believe the Vietnam War was justified, but that's beside the point.) These by and large were not people you could have an intelligent conversation with. I suppose by the strictest terms you could not really even call them hippies even though this was largely what the movement had turned into.

In the end it's not the movement itself I despise, it's the people who use a movement as an excuse to do something or hate people. Sadly it seems that these are always the people who make up the bulk part of a movement and eventually drag it into the ground. These are the people who are loud, hypocritical and self-righteous. They use movements as an excuse to hate people and do things that they could not otherwise get away with.

Really, I can respect the people who will think and give me an intelligent discussion, no matter what their beliefs are. It think it's probably a bit of a misnomer to say you respect someones beliefs. A belief is not really something you respect or disrespect, you either agree with it or you don't. What you really should respect or not respect is the person who holds those beliefs.

DJ Yoshi took a simplistic view of the conversation and quickly used it to jump to a conclusion that allowed him to feel self-righteous and indignant. He's done this as long as I can remember. I don't respect him for that, but I don't hate him for it either. If hating makes me happy I don't care. Perhaps I should, but I don't. He isn't hurting me at all.

I was trying to emphasise that I was generalizing about rap music because I hadn't heard much of it. I was simply criticizing the people who listen to it for an emo boost, and those who give it to them for that reason. Not the genre. I should have been more clear about that at first. That's what I was try to (apparently unsuccessfully) communicate by saying that I was generalizing.

Well, I for one, have learned something from this conversation. By doing so, I have fulfilled the primary goal of intelligent conversation. Conversation is not Quake with words.


Man, I hope I proof read that enough...

I'm glad, Obi. What you said made a lot of sense and it's good you got something out of it.

DJ Yoshi, I do agree with you, you're right on, I just wanted to elaborate a little on the viewpoint I think we share because "ignorant as hell" is a little abrasive.

Though it's not really a view point that has a bearing on this conversation.

Ruthy, I think you need to realize people suck. They are generally driven by what they believe will better their situation.