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ForumsDiscussion Forum → WORST President of all time!
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WORST President of all time!
2006-06-29, 4:16 PM #41
Originally posted by Jon`C:
hurr

No. The last time civil liberties were this bad in the United States was Redscare. Joe McCarthy wasn't a president, though: he was a senator.

Bush seriously believes that freedom of speech should be limited. He believes that the right to privacy does not exist, he does not believe the constitution applies to his own actions. He believes that freedom of the press should only apply when the press is fellating him (Fox News). I am not talking about the actions of congress, I am talking about what Bush is doing. The powers of the executive branch are limited but Bush is abusing every single one of his powers to undermine everything that America stands for.

This is not historical short-sightedness. Even Nixon was an accomplished diplomat and created the EPA. What has Bush ever done for America? Oh right, he created a bloated and ineffective national security agency that's designed to do nothing but restrict your civil liberties. Bravo.


You may be right in some aspects, but damn man, you are tossing around some heavily exaggerated statements.
2006-06-29, 4:41 PM #42
[http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v373/JoZ/bush_liberty_vampire.jpg]
ORJ / My Level: ORJ Temple Tournament I
2006-06-29, 4:48 PM #43
Originally posted by Jon`C:
hurr

No. The last time civil liberties were this bad in the United States was Redscare. Joe McCarthy wasn't a president, though: he was a .

Bush seriously believes that freedom of spesenatorech should be limited. He believes that the right to privacy does not exist, he does not believe the constitution applies to his own actions. He believes that freedom of the press should only apply when the press is fellating him (Fox News). I am not talking about the actions of congress, I am talking about what Bush is doing. The powers of the executive branch are limited but Bush is abusing every single one of his powers to undermine everything that America stands for.

This is not historical short-sightedness. Even Nixon was an accomplished diplomat and created the EPA. What has Bush ever done for America? Oh right, he created a bloated and ineffective national security agency that's designed to do nothing but restrict your civil liberties. Bravo.



A) What does America stand for? People say this so often I wonder what they are talking about.

B) Please supply direct quotes for these claims of his beliefs. Sure you can apply those to him based on some of his actions, but I seriously doubt he'd actually say that if asked him.

C)
Quote:
He believes that freedom of the press should only apply when the press is fellating him (Fox News).


Umm... what? Proof?

D) As for things he's done right, he seems to have done a decent job with the economy, all things considered.


E) I'm not to happy about the whole security thing ether, but I'm not going to loose sleep over it. He honestly believes that it's the best thing for the country. I think a lot of people would be more sympathetic to him if they realized just how bad a nuke detonation in a major city would be, but I'm still going to go on record against it. I really can't see what harm it doing now. It hasn't really opened up a path for government abuse of our privacy, it's just proved that it's possible.

All-in-all he is fighting terrorism. He may not be doing the best of jobs, but at least he didn't go running to the UN. He has some surprisingly socialistic domestic policies, which really disappoints me. He's done nothing at all about abortion, which is even more disappointing. But, as bad as he is, I don't think there's any way he could have been worse than Kerry or Gore. I don't know what the Democratic party was thinking with them. I honestly think the only way Bush's popularity was as high as it was during the election is because he was being compared to Kerry.

After ten years all the retarded conspiracy theories, and speculations presented as facts will fade away, and he will be forgotten.

The whole politics thing is stupid. I realized this when I realized that political argument and, video card fan-boy flame wars were the exact same thing with different nouns.
2006-06-29, 4:49 PM #44
Originally posted by ORJ_JoS:
IMG


lawl
2006-06-29, 4:50 PM #45
John Adams. Alien and Sedition Acts, anyone?
If you think the waiters are rude, you should see the manager.
2006-06-29, 4:54 PM #46
Quote:
What does America stand for? People say this so often I wonder what they are talking about.


Life, liberty and the pursiut of happiness?

Seriously. I'm *Canadian* and I knew that.
COUCHMAN IS BACK BABY
2006-06-29, 4:56 PM #47
Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet:
I'm not to happy about the whole security thing ether, but I'm not going to loose sleep over it. He honestly believes that it's the best thing for the country.


Umm... what? Proof?
ORJ / My Level: ORJ Temple Tournament I
2006-06-29, 5:07 PM #48
Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet:
You can usually tell those with a limited grasp of history because they will always name the last president of the opposite political party to serve. In this case, Clinton or Bush.

I say FDR. It's one thing to be a lousy president, but then corrupt? No thanks. Sure, Nixon did some bad stuff in the election, but that doesn't really touch, appointing extra Supreme Court Judges to get your way.

I'd say Bush and Clinton were average. Bush may not be terribly apt, but he seems to do his best. Clinton lied to much. Ironically this was so he could he popular. Sadly it seemed to work. He had a few socialistic policies, but all-in-all he was pretty moderate.

1) Bush's administration has utterly destroyed America as we know it. They broke democracy by focusing peoples' attention on the war instead of issues regarding their rights. And the people don't care.
2) Bush has gotten us into arguably one of the WORST war situations we've ever been in--and is riding the wave of War Fame until the thing goes sour (as it's beginning to), and by the time that happens he offloads the problems onto the next administration.
3) Clinton didn't lie except for his affair. I'd like to see you dredge up proof otherwise. Clinton was the best thing that ever happened to our economy (a huge economic boom was going on in his administration, the lower/middle/upper class gap was shorter, a 9 ****ing percent unemployment rate). He didn't remain popular because he lied, he remained popular because his administration brought awesome economic and political changes for the better for our nation.

4) To be honest, I think it is you who has the limited grasp of history. But then again, at 16, I shouldn't expect much from you.
D E A T H
2006-06-29, 5:09 PM #49
ya but fdr sux LOL
2006-06-29, 5:11 PM #50
Originally posted by KnobZ2:
I want to better understand the opinions of the people on this board who consider FDR to be the single worst president of the forty-three ones we've had, especially when it comes to Social Security and Medicare.

The most commong complaint against FDR I hear is the fact that he created Social Security and set the precedent for Medicare (which was actually created by LBJ, not FDR) which are "still hurting this country even today." Who is to blame in this case though: FDR for creating Social Security (which, I should add, worked very well in the 40s, 50s and 60s), or modern politicians for not updating the system for the 21st century by use of privatization or other means? With privatization and other changes it would be possible to ensure a stable Social Security network for decades to come. And one that is necessary for this country, as 90% of seniors in this day and age expect Social Security and Medicare benefits. FDR created a system that was stable for 30 years, which is about as long of a period of time a government program can work without significant change.

I talked to a Social Security worker and had a brief discussion with him about the privatization of Social Security (which, in and of itself, is quite the oxymoron), and he said it'd shorten its life by about 10 years. He said he expects the system to collapse in 15.
D E A T H
2006-06-29, 5:15 PM #51
Originally posted by Jon`C:
I said "the last time", not "the only time".

Edit: And about that. Are you seriously comparing WWII, a time of real war, to the war in Iraq?


Not making a comparison, only pointing out that there are times when it's necesassry to give up the civil liberties a bit. Also, good thing we live in a country with checks and balances so a president with views you don't like can't impose his will with the snap of a finger.

Quote:
Okay. Let's take this in another direction then. Look at WWII-era American propaganda. You'll find a lot of posters saying things like "YOU can help out, too!", encouraging the civilians to do their part to help the war effort. How can you reconcile this with Bush's attitude of "Shut up and stay out of it"?


People could help out, but the general individual in the US is far too selfish to be willing to help the country out.
Pissed Off?
2006-06-29, 5:18 PM #52
Originally posted by Avenger:
Not making a comparison, only pointing out that there are times when it's necesassry to give up the civil liberties a bit. Also, good thing we live in a country with checks and balances so a president with views you don't like can't impose his will with the snap of a finger.

O RLY?

Have you seen the Real ID, broadcast flag, and other civil liberty DESTROYING bills that have slipped through congress because of a news report on "8 killed, 13 injured in suicide bombing" which prompts a "budget reformation" with said riders on there? I'm sorry, but this country's checks and balances need some SEVERE overhauling.
D E A T H
2006-06-29, 5:20 PM #53
[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]O RLY?

Have you seen the Real ID, broadcast flag, and other civil liberty DESTROYING bills that have slipped through congress because of a news report on "8 killed, 13 injured in suicide bombing" which prompts a "budget reformation" with said riders on there? I'm sorry, but this country's checks and balances need some SEVERE overhauling.[/QUOTE]

Hey, if you dun like it, den you can git out.

>.>

(yes, it's a joke)
2006-06-29, 5:27 PM #54
Not to mention the fact that Bush is internationally ridiculing America's cause through scandalous human rights violations in Guantánamo Bay.

And it's dragging down the rest of the world. In Europe, there's a pretty big crisis over hundreds of secret CIA flights in the past few years, through the airspace of European countries, meant to transport prisoners of war to secret CIA prisons in countries that allow the practise of torture.

And no, that's not a conspiracy nut story. It's being thoroughly investigated by the European Union. Already several governments have been found responsible for cooperating with those secret transports.
ORJ / My Level: ORJ Temple Tournament I
2006-06-29, 5:28 PM #55
[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]O RLY?

Have you seen the Real ID, broadcast flag, and other civil liberty DESTROYING bills that have slipped through congress because of a news report on "8 killed, 13 injured in suicide bombing" which prompts a "budget reformation" with said riders on there? I'm sorry, but this country's checks and balances need some SEVERE overhauling.[/QUOTE]


Do nothing and see what happens to this country and our precious was of life.
Pissed Off?
2006-06-29, 5:47 PM #56
Originally posted by ORJ_JoS:
Not to mention the fact that Bush is internationally ridiculing America's cause through scandalous human rights violations in Guantánamo Bay.

And it's dragging down the rest of the world. In Europe, there's a pretty big crisis over hundreds of secret CIA flights in the past few years, through the airspace of European countries, meant to transport prisoners of war to secret CIA prisons in countries that allow the practise of torture.

And no, that's not a conspiracy nut story. It's being thoroughly investigated by the European Union. Already several governments have been found responsible for cooperating with those secret transports.

Not only could I see Bush not even knowing about the practices in Guantanamo Bay until it was too late (that's the kind of things cabinet members handle), but those CIA flights could easily be made up by some of the severe corruption in the EU (as there will be in ANY governmen that big), and I wouldn't doubt it could just be a political leveraging maneuver against those states and/or the US.
D E A T H
2006-06-29, 6:06 PM #57
what

The CIA flights over European aerospace, and the cooperation between European countries' security agencies and police forces and the CIA is a confirmed fact.
For instance, there was the case where two Egyptian terrorist suspects were removed from Swedish custody and flown in a CIA plane from Bromma airport in Sweden to Egypt, where they were subsequently tortured and incarcerated without trial.

I don't know of any other specific cases, but there has been a LOT of talk in the EU about Poland and Belarus aiding CIA with prisoner transport and torture camps. I believe Amnesty International has a report on their webpage about it.
VTEC just kicked in, yo!
2006-06-29, 6:10 PM #58
[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]Not only could I see Bush not even knowing about the practices in Guantanamo Bay until it was too late (that's the kind of things cabinet members handle)[/QUOTE]

Quite the contrary, he made it possible by designing the whole 'treatment of enemy combatatants', and he's been vocally defending the whole thing all along.

[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]but those CIA flights could easily be made up by some of the severe corruption in the EU (as there will be in ANY governmen that big), and I wouldn't doubt it could just be a political leveraging maneuver against those states and/or the US.[/QUOTE]

Haha, no. There's tons of evidence from all corners over the EU. Yes, there is corruption in the EU. But I think the real issue here is the lack of press coverage these sort of issues get in the US, compared to what we get over here. At least, that's what the press over here says. haha
ORJ / My Level: ORJ Temple Tournament I
2006-06-29, 6:30 PM #59
Originally posted by ORJ_JoS:
Quite the contrary, he made it possible by designing the whole 'treatment of enemy combatatants', and he's been vocally defending the whole thing all along.

Apparently you don't understand the position he's in. Note: I'm not saying Bush is a good guy, I'm just justifying things you have no grasp of (although, admittedly, this is a lot of semi-educated speculation on my part).

He's the most powerful man in the world. Hands down. He leads the country. He does not have control over what everyone in his cabinet does, he just makes the path, and they walk it. Whether they stray or not, yes, legally he is ultimately responsible for his policies, so he has to be confident and say that his policies were the ONLY course of action to be taken. This is the dangers of letting people handle your business, instead of taking care of it yourself, but managing such a massive corporation as the US, W has no time to learn of everything that goes on under him or even try and **** with it. He just has to go with the people he trusts' decisions.

[ORJ_Jos]Haha, no. There's tons of evidence from all corners over the EU. Yes, there is corruption in the EU. But I think the real issue here is the lack of press coverage these sort of issues get in the US, compared to what we get over here. At least, that's what the press over here says. haha[/QUOTE]
There is a lot of corruption in the EU. The US has enough to keep scandals quiet such as insider trading in the white house, which is a HUMONGOUS deal with the current separation of middle and upper and lower classes, so I wouldn't doubt that the EU has enough to fabricate something like this. I'm not saying it IS a scandal, just that you need to keep an open mind. Note, I'm NOT a conspiracy theorist, nor am I the type of person one would consider a theorist.

But I do admit that the lack of media coverage this side of the seas is disturbing, but not surprising. The cabinet has quite a bit of elbow room in censoring the media, especially anti-US media, in this time of "war".
D E A T H
2006-06-29, 6:30 PM #60
Originally posted by ORJ_JoS:
Yes, there is corruption in the EU.



some? You're making baby Jesus cry.
2006-06-29, 7:12 PM #61
Originally posted by ORJ_JoS:
Quite the contrary, he made it possible by designing the whole 'treatment of enemy combatatants', and he's been vocally defending the whole thing all along.



JKF did the same with the Bay of Pigs even htough he had absolutely nothing to do with it. It can happen.
Pissed Off?
2006-06-29, 7:25 PM #62
[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]1) Bush's administration has utterly destroyed America as we know it. They broke democracy by focusing peoples' attention on the war instead of issues regarding their rights. And the people don't care.
2) Bush has gotten us into arguably one of the WORST war situations we've ever been in--and is riding the wave of War Fame until the thing goes sour (as it's beginning to), and by the time that happens he offloads the problems onto the next administration.
3) Clinton didn't lie except for his affair. I'd like to see you dredge up proof otherwise. Clinton was the best thing that ever happened to our economy (a huge economic boom was going on in his administration, the lower/middle/upper class gap was shorter, a 9 ****ing percent unemployment rate). He didn't remain popular because he lied, he remained popular because his administration brought awesome economic and political changes for the better for our nation.

4) To be honest, I think it is you who has the limited grasp of history. But then again, at 16, I shouldn't expect much from you.[/QUOTE]

Utterly destroyed? Uh oh. Your post is... wow. I think I'll just let the future answer for itself then, m-kay?
2006-06-29, 7:34 PM #63
To say that Bush is worse than Harding or Grant is a pretty big stretch.


Wiretapping and holding prisoners as enemy combatants is pretty bad, but, honestly, a bit overblown in terms of magnitude. Hopefully congress/courts will restrain his power soon.

I wouldn't say FDR was the worst president. He did some things that were quite bad. Example: Japanese internment camps.

Franklin Pierce was a pretty bad president. He sort of repealed the Missouri Compromise and opened up Kansas and Nebraska to a vote on slavery, leading to the whole Bleeding Kansas debacle not to mention helping to bring the country to Civil War.
2006-06-29, 7:45 PM #64
It takes about 50 years for experts to truley rate presidents based on how they benefited the country.

I have a feeling Bush will be rated down there, but no one will know yet.
2006-06-29, 7:55 PM #65
[QUOTE=Dj Yoshi]3) Clinton didn't lie except for his affair. I'd like to see you dredge up proof otherwise. Clinton was the best thing that ever happened to our economy (a huge economic boom was going on in his administration, the lower/middle/upper class gap was shorter, a 9 ****ing percent unemployment rate). He didn't remain popular because he lied, he remained popular because his administration brought awesome economic and political changes for the better for our nation.[/QUOTE]

Presidents have little effect on the economy. It's a big buzz word come election time thanks to the media. Clinton rode a big wave, but he didn't have jack **** to do with it. Any president could have ridden that one. Also, don't forget that the tech bust happened on his watch, which led to a nice little recession. Not that he had anything to do with the bust either.
Pissed Off?
2006-06-29, 8:01 PM #66
Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet:
Utterly destroyed? Uh oh. Your post is... wow. I think I'll just let the future answer for itself then, m-kay?

As we know it. Meaning the democratic system. It's going to take a while to repair.

Originally posted by Avenger:
Presidents have little effect on the economy. It's a big buzz word come election time thanks to the media. Clinton rode a big wave, but he didn't have jack **** to do with it. Any president could have ridden that one. Also, don't forget that the tech bust happened on his watch, which led to a nice little recession. Not that he had anything to do with the bust either.

I disagree. Presidents have a LOT of effect on the economy. Hell, just by electing a republican statistics show that our economy reaps a benefit. At first he had to deal with some of the policies of Bush Sr., but after a few years some of his OWN policies started coming into effect. I read a thing on the SA Forums about his administration and how it wasn't as bad as everyone tends to make it out. The tech burst happened during his years as president and we still saw some of the best times economically and politically under Clinton--to say the man wasn't an extremely awesome diplomat is to make a bold-faced lie. He got us on standing relations with many countries that we were very much not friendly with.

[quote=Peter Beinart from The New Republic]
Part I: The Intellectual and Moral Case


"Clinton's third way failed miserably. It ... delivered nothing." So wrote Markos Moulitsas, the most influential online activist in the Democratic Party, in the May 7 Washington Post. It's not an unusual view. In his wildly successful book, What's the Matter with Kansas?, Thomas Frank says that, in the 1990s, Democrats committed "suicide." Among liberal activists today, the claim that Clintonism represents a failed model--which contemporary Democrats must reject--has virtually become conventional wisdom.

The case against Clintonism comes in two parts: one moral and intellectual, the other political. I'll tackle the first this week; the second next week. What unites them is a deep amnesia about the party--and the country--that Bill Clinton inherited. The attack on Clinton founders on one simple question: compared with what?

The moral and intellectual critique starts with the assertion that Clinton stood for little other than his own political survival. By draining the party of its core convictions, the critics allege, he left Democrats in the intellectual wasteland in which they find themselves today.

The charge ignores two small things: the 1970s and the 1980s. In reality, the Democratic Party didn't lose the confidence of its convictions when Clinton became president; it lost them when he was in graduate school. From Harry Truman through Lyndon Johnson, Democrats stood for three basic things: enlightened anti-communism, an expanding welfare state, and racial integration. Between 1968 and 1972, under pressure from Vietnam and racial conflict, two of those three collapsed. By 1972, George McGovern was urging the virtual abandonment of anticommunism and advocating racial quotas. Then, in 1976, Democrats nominated a relative economic conservative, Jimmy Carter, who showed little interest in extending Johnson's Great Society largesse. And, poof--there went principle number three.

From 1976 to 1992, each Democratic presidential nominee tried to put Humpty Dumpty back together, and each failed, until Clinton. Carter ran on character--as a decent, capable man who embodied the small-town virtues forsaken by Richard Nixon. And it worked--until economic recession and the hostage crisis stripped him of his reputation for competence and left him ideologically naked.

In 1984, the Democrats nominated Carter's vice president, Walter Mondale, who looked like a prisoner of the party's fractious, multicultural factions. While serving numerous parochial interests, his campaign never defined any broader national one. As one Mondale speechwriter admitted, "We had a hell of a time putting down on paper what this campaign was going to be all about."

In 1988, Michael Dukakis barely even tried. "This election is not about ideology," he declared. "It's about competence." And, when Lee A****er shrewdly invoked cultural issues like crime and the Pledge of Allegiance, which required not merely technocratic solutions, but statements of belief, he crumbled.

This, like it or not, is the history that preceded Clinton. He did not create liberalism's crisis of faith; he inherited it. And, in 1992, he became the first candidate in two decades to offer a coherent response. His adviser Bill Galston called it the "politics of reciprocal responsibility." Government would provide opportunity, but it would demand responsibility in return; it would not give something for nothing. This idea--manifested in Clinton's pledge to "end welfare as we know it"--angered some liberals. But it told blue-collar whites that Democrats would distinguish between people who "played by the rules" and those who didn't. (Clinton's tough stance on crime sent the same message.) By the time Clinton signed welfare reform in 1996, the public's image of government was changing. When people thought of the beneficiaries of government help, they were more likely to think of people like themselves.

If Clinton convinced Americans that government action could be moral, he also convinced them that it could be responsible. By reducing the budget deficit, he helped restore the Democratic Party's reputation for economic stewardship, which had been gravely damaged under Carter. And, by using market mechanisms to achieve traditional liberal goals, he found ways to fight poverty in an environment where large new programs were politically impossible.

To be sure, Clinton sometimes bobbed and weaved. But these two principles--the willingness to make moral judgments (think of school uniforms or the V-Chip) and the recognition that social justice does not always require new programs (think of Al Gore's reinventing government)--were the most important intellectual innovations in the Democratic Party in two decades.

And they worked. Clinton's 1993 decision to cut the budget deficit rather than propose substantial new spending helped lay the groundwork for an extraordinary economic boom. And, unlike the boom of the '80s, Clinton's genuinely benefited the poorest Americans. Under Ronald Reagan, 50,000 children escaped poverty; under Clinton, more than 4 million did. During Clinton's tenure, income rose faster for blacks and Latinos than for whites, and faster for single mothers than for two-parent families. By 2000, black and Latino poverty were at their lowest levels ever recorded.

And it wasn't only the economic boom. Clinton raised the minimum wage, he created schip, which offered health insurance to children of the working poor, and he dramatically expanded the Earned Income Tax Credit (eitc). These initiatives rewarded work, and none required large new government bureaucracies. But, on the ground, they changed lives. When Clinton left office, the poverty rate was 11 percent. But, as Ronald Brownstein has noted, when you factor in government policies, especially the larger eitc, it dropped to 9 percent. During Clinton's presidency, the percentage of Americans living in poverty fell by one-quarter. And, without particular policies based on a particular vision of government, that would not have happened. Morally and intellectually, Clintonism wasn't a miserable failure; it was a success.

The same is true politically. But that's for next week.[/quote]

And--

[quote=Peter Beinart from The New Republic] Part II: The Political Case


Last week, I addressed the intellectual and moral case against Clintonism: that it lacked principle and accomplished little. But, among activist liberals today, that intellectual and moral critique is inseparable from a political one: that Bill Clinton destroyed the Democratic Party. Constructing a Democratic majority, critics like blogger Markos Moulitsas and author Thomas Frank allege, does not require building on the Clinton legacy; it requires escaping it.

The argument starts by noting that Clinton never won a majority of the vote. But the statistic is less damning than the critics assume. In three- or four-way presidential elections, the winner rarely cracks 50 percent. Woodrow Wilson failed to do so twice; so did Harry Truman in 1948 and Richard Nixon in 1968. In 1980, with John Anderson running as an Independent, Ronald Reagan squeaked by with 50.75 percent. Measured in electoral votes (which often factor out third-party candidates because they don't win a plurality in any state), Clinton's victories look impressive. He won 370 electoral votes in 1992 and 379 in 1996--more than Wilson in 1916, Truman in 1948, John F. Kennedy in 1960, Nixon in 1968, Jimmy Carter in 1976, or George W. Bush in 2000 or 2004.

Some critics acknowledge that Clinton was personally popular, but attribute it to his freakish political skill. Clintonism, they insist, was not--and thus cannot be the basis for a Democratic revival. But the truth is closer to the reverse. As early as 1992, when revelations about Gennifer Flowers and draft-dodging nearly derailed his primary bid, Americans had huge doubts about Clinton's character. But they divorced those qualms from their assessment of Clinton's policies--which they grew to love. By December 1998, after the Monica Lewinsky scandal hit, a majority of Americans disliked Clinton personally, but over 70 percent liked what he was doing for the country. Today's activists blame Clintonism for leaving grassroots Democrats demoralized. But the demoralization began after Clinton left office. According to the Pew Research Center, 63 percent of Democrats said their party was doing a good job standing up for its core beliefs in 2000--compared with only 33 percent by the end of 2004.

How, then, do you account for the great electoral disaster of Clinton's tenure: the 1994 Republican takeover of Congress? The answer is something that Clinton's critics generally ignore: history. For more than a half-century, Democratic strength in Congress had been anchored by the party's dominance in the South. At the presidential level, Dixie began deserting the party as early as 1964. But, in Congress--where incumbents rarely lose--the transformation lagged far behind. As late as 1988, Democrats still controlled roughly two-thirds of the region's House and Senate seats. But it couldn't last. "Eventually, the massive political realignment at the top of the ticket," warned party strategists Bill Galston and Elaine Kamarck in 1989, "will affect races at the bottom of the ticket."

"Eventually" came in 1994, sparked by a wave of retirements and race-based redistricting that created new black districts and left white ones whiter. Did Clinton exacerbate the problem? Sure. The assault-weapons ban, gays in the military, the health care push, and the 1993 tax hike fueled Republican turnout, while nafta kept some labor voters from the polls. But, while Clinton accentuated and hastened the change, it would probably have happened anyway. To keep Congress, Democrats needed the South, and, given the ideological distance--especially on cultural issues--between the white South and the national Democratic Party, the hammer was bound to fall.

And it wasn't just the South. For more than two decades prior to Clinton's election, the national Democratic Party had been in decline. Clinton's liberal detractors blame him for not creating a Democratic majority. But partisan majorities take decades to build, and Clinton took the critical first step: He smashed the existing, Republican majority that had taken shape under Ronald Reagan. (In this way, he was like Richard Nixon, who smashed a preexisting Democratic majority but didn't create a Republican one in its place.) The Reagan majority was based on three things: militant anti-communism, public suspicion of government, and the divide between blacks and the white working class. Mikhail Gorbachev took care of the first, but Clinton overcame the others. The percentage of Americans identifying as Democrats, which dropped like a stone in the '70s and '80s, hit bottom in the early '90s, and the spread versus the GOP inched up. Even more importantly, public perceptions of government, which had also been in freefall since the mid-'80s, began to improve--which is logical, given that government policies were markedly improving the lives of average Americans, particularly the poor.

Clinton's liberal critics savage him for gobbling up big money contributions rather than developing a small donor base (something Democrats began doing in the '80s). And they are right that, in the long term, a small donor base is critical to a Democratic majority. But the emergence of that base since 2004 owes largely to factors that did not exist in the '90s--campaign finance reform, liberal rage over Bush and Iraq, and, above all, the Internet. Organizationally, Clinton could have done more to hasten its rise. But, ideologically, he did something even more important: He convinced blue-collar whites--who had grown cynical about government--that it could improve their lives.

In 1992 and 1996, Clinton did something no national Democrat had done in decades: He won the white working class. And, by restoring the public's faith in government, he laid the ideological (if not the organizational) foundation for a Democratic majority. That emerging majority was derailed by two things. First, the Lewinsky scandal, which made character a dominant issue in the 2000 presidential race and sliced Al Gore's popular-vote victory so thin that the election ended in the Supreme Court. And second, September 11, which gave Bush a Republican Congress and a second term.

But, with those two factors receding, the Democratic Party's prospects once again look bright. The party's new "netroots" base deserves some credit for that. But, even more importantly, Americans are turning to the Democratic Party because, under Bush, they have seen government fail, and they remember a time when it worked--under Bill Clinton. Liberal activists should remember as well.[/quote]
D E A T H
2006-06-29, 8:05 PM #67
Yoshi and I share the same opinion.

Thought I might contribute in a small way >.>
2006-06-29, 8:31 PM #68
Wow, some definite extreme statements going on about Bush. Unfortunatly, it does little to help your case as points such as "utterly destroyed America" and that "Bush has abused every power he has" sound more just like the exteme comments radicals on the left would say.

And yes, there are economists who will tell you (no I have no internet source on me...this is from discussions on this in my personal life/job to those in the economic field) that Bush really got handed the economy, yet people label him as the reason for the downfall. It takes a while for a recession to take shape...it's not an instantaneous thing. Only in crisis's does that happen, but it was going into recession before 9/11. Rise and fall - simple economics. The economy was eventually going to fall, unfortunatly - most people just see Bush become president - economy start falling - they're related.

I mean, it's hard to really prove that the 'great' economy that occured under Clinton was from him. It's possible that it came from the policies that Reagan and Bush Sr. implemented during their terms, and that Clinton didn't do much to help keep it going which led to its eventual downfall. It's all a matter of perspective. If you want to see Clinton as being an amazing President for the economy, you'll disregard this as theory. If you want to trash Clinton, you'll believe it. Really - there's little actual control the President has on the economy. Congress has a part, the Federal Reserve has a part, etc. To say that Clinton was the best thing that happened to this economy is pure ignorance to the way the economy actually functions and the general trends and length of occurence it takes.

The president has more direct power on foreign issues then domestic.

I mean hell though, look at Clinton's appeasing of North Korea (which effects increased the situation for today), the selling of military technology to China, missing Bin Laden being offered to him, certain weak foreign policies (You can argue that it helped us in diplomacy, but not responding to the terrorist threats/attacks weakly did little to help prevent that), pardoning 'questionable' people the day before he left office (which is his power yes, but some of them were very questionable as to why he did it - could argue abusing his power - parallels Bush Jr in abusing?), etc etc etc

It's a matter of perspective...

I'm not going to defend Bush, and I'm not going to source all those arguments against Clinton(Google it yourself - you'll learn more reading different sources).

Lets just cut out the left/right wing extreme comments that are extreme exaggerations
2006-06-29, 9:00 PM #69
I'm not a leftist extremist--I know that Clinton was a weak military president, but I also know that what we needed, and what we still need is not a huge military. That's what got us in trouble in the first place. Bush believes that by showing terrorists a "distinct show of power" (the "War On Terror" noise) we're keeping them at bay. In fact, it's probably just angering them even more, and once he realized this he turned it into a reformation of a corrupt government.

And while I understand the pseudo-economists arguments against Presidents having any direct influence on the economy, until I see some hard proof from a fully accredited economist, I'll remain highly skeptical.

To be honest, the best things about Clinton's office is that he reduced budget spending, and actually had the first credit to the national budget in decades. That all fell to **** with Bush, because he figures that spending a ludicrous amount of money that you don't have is somehow negligible. There's also the increase of the minimum wage, the tightening of grip on Welfare, and the overall boost in standard of living that occurred under him. The unity of the nation back in those days was also extremely helpful as Clinton didn't do anything to lose the peoples' trust by taking away their freedoms and rights. Granted, during times of extreme duress on the nation, there's going to be rights taken away and some censorship occurring, but one attack 5 years ago that, while it should leave a lasting impression, has gotten embellished to the point that you'd think they waged unholy war on us does not justify the raping of our civil liberties that Bush has felt "necessary".

Clinton stood for something, and he followed his path down to the end, even while the "scandal of the White House" was going on (which was just a press ticket to the average family man, trying to push the President into a bad light, like all media regimes do) and as a result gained the trust of the people.
D E A T H
2006-06-29, 9:02 PM #70
Even better! Now we're posting long articles from pundits! Will we realize just how much are lives have been upheaved, or will we continue on in ignorant bliss! It's politics, one never knows.

Remember folks, this is serious business.
2006-06-29, 9:03 PM #71
Originally posted by Demon_Nightmare:
Wow, some definite extreme statements going on about Bush. Unfortunatly, it does little to help your case as points such as "utterly destroyed America" and that "Bush has abused every power he has" sound more just like the exteme comments radicals on the left would say.
[...]
Lets just cut out the left/right wing extreme comments that are extreme exaggerations
I am a conservative. Bush is not.

Conservatives (little c) believe that change should happen, but it should happen gradually. Conservatives (little c) believe in small government, encouraging business and believe in lowering taxes and cutting social programs (because money in the hands of those that need it is more important than taking away their money and spending it on something they don't need). Conservative != Regressive.

Bush, on the other hand, believes in tax cuts only for the very rich. He believes in enormous government and deficit spending. He is fiscally liberal, but socially conservative only as far as his religion mandates - when it comes to immigration, he is quite liberal. He also believes in the restriction of civil liberties, which is more of an 'up' than a left or right situation. He is not the right leader for anybody, be they liberal or conservative. This is not a statement spoken from any extreme or irrational leftist or rightist position, this is a rational statement spoken by an outside observer who is mortified.

Bush's respect for the constitution is illustrated quite well by his use of signing statements. Such as his signing statement on the torture ban, which basically means "This applies unless I want to torture the guys at gitmo, and I do. Muaha." What good is a president who does not respect the rights and responsibilities afforded to congress and the judiciary under the United States Constitution? But hurr, I guess I'm just some left-wing nut.
2006-06-29, 9:22 PM #72
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-869183917758574879
2006-06-29, 9:23 PM #73
John 'C is right, Bush is not very conservative. Also, how did the tax cuts for everyone including (ZOMG) the rich, get turned itno tax cuts only for the rich. The rich pay too mnay taxes and that's bad for the economy. Investing and speculating and all that, y'know.

And speaking of torture, perhaps we should force POWs to read political thread unless they give us info? :p
2006-06-29, 9:30 PM #74
Jon 'C is Canadian, just so you know.

Quote:
He also believes in the restriction of civil liberties, which is more of an 'up' than a left or right situation.


That made me laugh, for real.
COUCHMAN IS BACK BABY
2006-06-29, 9:35 PM #75
Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet:
John 'C is right, Bush is not very conservative. Also, how did the tax cuts for everyone including (ZOMG) the rich, get turned itno tax cuts only for the rich. The rich pay too mnay taxes and that's bad for the economy. Investing and speculating and all that, y'know.

And speaking of torture, perhaps we should force POWs to read political thread unless they give us info? :p

Despite the fact that you obviously tl;dr'd my very pertinent article which I think would've enlightened you a bit, your ignorance seemingly knows no bounds. While everyone DID get tax cuts, the rich got EXTREMELY RIDICULOUS tax cuts, not to mention the repeal of the Estate Tax, and a lot of tax imposements that made the rich pay more to the government, keeping the gap a lot smaller (which is overall better for the econoomy--big gaps cause separation and the saving of money instead of spending).
D E A T H
2006-06-29, 9:55 PM #76
Valid Yoshi. However, it's still arguable. The whole concept of 'raising the minimum wage' is still highly contested as if it actually does more than good. In theory, since you're raising the minimum wage - it means employers are going to hire less since it leads to higher labor costs. Thus, your minimum pay goes up as an employee - but there's more unemployment. This is one of the main arguments against using the minimum wage as a way to curve the economy. Since there's so many factors under Clinton's term though, it's hard to know to what extent it helped/hurt/or did nothing to the economy.

And in regards to the tax cut for the rich, this is once again just a popular catch phrase that the media and political pundits caught hold of. Take tax classes - research tax law. My field is accounting, so I've done my fair share. *I'm referring to US tax law too...if you're from another country, please keep your limited international perspective on our tax system in check* The rich get screwed - and I mean literally screwed - on many of the benefits that the lower income people get. From tax credits, deductions, etc. Many of them are phased out once you hit a certain income. Thus the rich get barely anything that so many of these 'lower income people' that didn't get a Bush tax cut complain about.

It's common sense that the more you pay in taxes, the more you'll get back in a tax cut. If it's a standard 'no qualification or specification' tax cut, then it will ALWAYS seem to favor the rich. This is due to the general principle that they pay more taxes, thus they'll get a larger cut. Example - a lower class person pays $500 in taxes, and only gets $25 from a tax cut proposal (We'll assume that' it's an unrealistic tax cut that affects all people). We then have someone making six figures who plays ~$36,000 in taxes. They would get an $1800 tax cut.

From a personal perspective, this seems completely unfair to the lower class person. The common perception is "They make more, they should pay more!". It's not fair that they receive such a large tax cut. However, number wise - it is fair since it's the exact same percentage. This is a common critique of the flat tax from ignorant people in that it's not fair. Far from it, it's not fair from your point of view.

Realistically, the tax cut is not structured like this - but the main reasoning still holds. The lower class - who get the most possible tax credits and deductions possible, get angry that they did not get a tax cut (When they pay such a small percentage of the total tax burden anyways).

If they truely want it fair, where is the public outcry to reestablish these tax deductions and credits that got phased out for the rich? It should be fair, right? I'm pretty sure you won't see that happen though because from an individual's in this bracket POV, it's not fair because they make more.

The Internal Revenue Code is extremely hard to understand and extremely confusing to most people. They blame the government. But what's one of the main reasons it has changed so much? It's because people find LOOPHOLEs and thus the government must make changes to the IRC adding new sections and qualifications to stop the loopholes. Thus, many people state the tax law is too comlicated. What they don't realize is its not soley the government's fault. It's all the people who try to take advantage of them.

Synoposis: Most of the public hates the concept of taxes. It is quite easy to complain that it's not fair, that it favors a certain group, etc. The rich can state it favors the poor because of the progressive percentage structure, the limit in deductions and credits, and complete phaseouts of common options available for lower class people. Vice versa, the lower class can say they get fewer tax cuts, it's more of a buren for them, etc. The media latches onto the lower class and their case though - since it's such a large percentage of the population.

So really, before you delve into this concept of these tax cuts favoring the rich, take a look into the tax law. Realize it's not fair to anyone - there's complaints on everyside.

It's quite easy to slam it down. It's impossible though to please everyone, as even the flat tax (fair in theory) is viewed as unfair.

Tax class 101...dismissed!
2006-06-29, 10:17 PM #77
Originally posted by Jon`C:
I am a conservative. Bush is not.


Good point. One of the most fatal mistakes that people make when talking politics is assuming Republican = Conservative, Democrats = Liberalsm, and it always gets me mad.
"His Will Was Set, And Only Death Would Break It"

"None knows what the new day shall bring him"
2006-06-29, 10:21 PM #78
BUCK SMASH
2006-06-29, 11:19 PM #79
[QUOTE=Jedi Legend]Wiretapping and holding prisoners as enemy combatants is pretty bad, but, honestly, a bit overblown in terms of magnitude.[/QUOTE]

No, it's not.

They're holding people prisoner for five years on end, without any right to a fair trial, and subjecting them to torture.

"They have no right to a fair trial because they are enemy combatants.", is what Bush says.

But how are you even going to prove someone is an 'enemy combatant' without giving them a fair trial?

And to back up some of Yoshi's so-called 'extremist views' (which they really aren't)
about how the war on terrorism is destroying America's civil liberties:

Human Rights Watch Annual Report

More on the subject of torture (Amnesty International)
ORJ / My Level: ORJ Temple Tournament I
2006-06-29, 11:28 PM #80
They aren't US citizens and were taken prisoner while taking up arms against the US. While they may not deserve some of the stuff they've gone through, they don;t deserve a cushy time in jail either.
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