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ForumsDiscussion Forum → Calling all grammar Nazis
123
Calling all grammar Nazis
2007-03-10, 5:45 AM #41
From what I've been taught, the views regarding the comma and quotes issues can be different between American and British people.
SnailIracing:n(500tpostshpereline)pants
-----------------------------@%
2007-03-10, 5:49 AM #42
Originally posted by Echoman:
From what I've been taught, the views regarding the comma and quotes issues can be different between American and British people.


Oh, they are. But it's absurd to say that putting the comma inside the quotation marks alters the message of the quote.
If you think the waiters are rude, you should see the manager.
2007-03-10, 5:59 AM #43
Oh, really?

Coma implies conjunction as well as separation. In the matter of quoting, it`s often detrimental to conveyed meaning.

And, just to be fair - can you give a good reason, why coma is needed within quotes?
I don`t suffer from the lack of sanity.
It`s others, who have it in excess.
2007-03-10, 7:29 AM #44
I absolutely can't, because it's entirely a stylistic matter that has no bearing on the way the quoted portion is read.

I'm struggling to think of a single example in which placing a comma inside the quotation marks instead of outside could change the meaning of what's quoted. I can't come up with even one. This is a problem with question marks and exclamation marks, and that's why we still put those outside the quotation marks. For commas and periods it makes no difference.
If you think the waiters are rude, you should see the manager.
2007-03-10, 7:35 AM #45
Well, if it`s stilistic difference, you`ll just have to forgive me for having different style, then you. As you yourself said, it bears no difference, so argument is pretty much pointless.

As for breaking quotes, I was thinking about incomplete quotes, first off - when one does not quotes the whole sentence, but only a relevant part of it. In this case, coma inside the quote might imply false termination of idea, which could be later expanded.

Besides, I`m a stickler for precision. If I quote something, there should be no punctuation of my writing inside the quotes.
I don`t suffer from the lack of sanity.
It`s others, who have it in excess.
2007-03-10, 7:55 AM #46
Originally posted by Alice Shade:
Since this had spurned on so much of a reply, I can add my five cents as well.

Comas - I assure you, that I do not put comas on random, as some of you here tried to portray. My usage may be alien for you, but it`s entirely logical, and does not contradicts rules directly. Question here is not in the coma, per ce, as much as in sentence construction.



Your comma usage is incorrect. Putting a comma before a conjunction is just plain wrong. You continually put commas before and/but. In fact there's 2 examples in the paragraph I just quoted.


Fixed paragraph:

Comas - I assure you that I do not put comas on random, as some of you here tried to portray. My usage may be alien for you but it`s entirely logical and does not contradicts rules directly. Question here is not in the coma per ce, as much as in sentence construction.

I only removed the unneeded commas. I ignored the spelling errors and other grammatical errors.


As for putting punctuation inside the quotation marks. It's completely illogical because you're quoting something (or denoting speech) and the reader will infer that the comma is part of the original quote (or speech).




edit: after looking through the rest of your posts, about half your commas are incorrect.
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eJkWhoSaysNiTheJkWhoSaysNiTheJkWhoSaysNiTheJkWhoSa
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2007-03-10, 7:56 AM #47
Originally posted by Alice Shade:
` vs ' - ` is apostrophe, pure and simple. ' is single quote. Thus, ` is what I use. Helps to evade misreadings.


Sorry to bring this up but I had to after reading all your posts. I never heard that this " ` " is the definite apostrophe mark. From what I've read, this " ’ " is what it is. I do know " ' " is for single quotes that has become the apostrophe, in a sense, due to how easy it is to use for typing.

I guess it's just a matter of "what floats your boat." But I do think ` adds too much space between text.
SnailIracing:n(500tpostshpereline)pants
-----------------------------@%
2007-03-10, 8:06 AM #48
Now, I just don`t have " ’ " handy on keyboard. Instead, I`ve got " ` ". And since using " ' " can make a lot of confusion over "Is it single quote or apostrophe?", I use " ` ". Which, by the way, is the common way in Russian net to put apostrophe, being the only handy symbol out of all three.
I don`t suffer from the lack of sanity.
It`s others, who have it in excess.
2007-03-10, 8:08 AM #49
,
"Harriet, sweet Harriet - hard-hearted harbinger of haggis."
2007-03-10, 8:20 AM #50
Informative. Is it a kind of in-joke, or rules allow quiet bumping?
I don`t suffer from the lack of sanity.
It`s others, who have it in excess.
2007-03-10, 8:21 AM #51
Originally posted by Alice Shade:
Now, I just don`t have " ’ " handy on keyboard. Instead, I`ve got " ` ". And since using " ' " can make a lot of confusion over "Is it single quote or apostrophe?", I use " ` ". Which, by the way, is the common way in Russian net to put apostrophe, being the only handy symbol out of all three.


Ah. Well, on our keyboards, the " ` " key is all the way in the above-left corner. In order to use it, you would have to the effort to reach it. That's why it's so uncommon for people to use it.

But I haven't seen people get confused over the ' for quote or apostrophe.
SnailIracing:n(500tpostshpereline)pants
-----------------------------@%
2007-03-10, 8:22 AM #52
Originally posted by Alice Shade:
Well, if it`s stilistic difference, you`ll just have to forgive me for having different style, then you. As you yourself said, it bears no difference, so argument is pretty much pointless.


Well, I wasn't the one who called you out on it in the first place. I actually don't much care where a person puts the comma, so long as it's not in an article I'm editing, in which case I will insist on proper AP style.

Quote:
As for breaking quotes, I was thinking about incomplete quotes, first off - when one does not quotes the whole sentence, but only a relevant part of it. In this case, coma inside the quote might imply false termination of idea, which could be later expanded.

Besides, I`m a stickler for precision. If I quote something, there should be no punctuation of my writing inside the quotes.


I'm still having trouble visualizing this. Can you give an example? Now I'm legitimately curious.
If you think the waiters are rude, you should see the manager.
2007-03-10, 8:39 AM #53
Well... Here`s entirely fictional quote.

"Hinduism and Buddhism share common concept of approximation to non-existance."

Now, if I have to analyse this quote, I would write something akin to this:

...Clause "Hinduism and Buddhism share common concept", while generally truthful, has many caveats, not the least of which would be general figure of monotheistic god in Hinduism versus deifying the human in Buddhism; however the clause is clarified by following "of approximation to non-existance.", which is mostly truthful - both Hinduism and Buddhism teach to spurn the material events and values in favor of spiritual enlightement....

Note, that comas inside have potential to make one assume, that initial quote was "Hinduism and Buddhism share common concept, of approximation to non-existance,...", and suggest something not intended in those quotes.


P.S. To Echoman - I`m used to reach there. Remember, I learned to type on Russian, and in Russian layout it`s the only apostrophe-like sign on the keyboard.
I don`t suffer from the lack of sanity.
It`s others, who have it in excess.
2007-03-10, 9:31 AM #54
Originally posted by Michael MacFarlane:
I'm still having trouble visualizing this. Can you give an example? Now I'm legitimately curious.


Alice's example is right, but a bit confusing, let me try to make a very simple example.


Consider this:

"I like pies," he said. "made of meat," he continued.

This implies that he said "I like pies, made of meat" which does not make sense.

However, with the comma outside the quotes this is not a problem.

"I like pies", he said. "made of meat", he continued.
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iTheJkWhoSaysNiTheJkWhoSaysNiTheJkWhoSaysNiTheJkW
2007-03-10, 9:54 AM #55
"I like pies," he said. "Made of meat," he continued.

However this is a very strange example, because "'I like pies made of meat,' he said." would probably be the best way of writing it down unless he made a long unnatural pause after "pies."

The word pie comes from the Gaulish "peth."

EDIT: HALP US JESUS.
幻術
2007-03-10, 10:03 AM #56
In any case, I don`t really see a merit of including comas inside the quotes.

If anyone has a good logical reason, why coma should be inside the quotes, please tell.
I don`t suffer from the lack of sanity.
It`s others, who have it in excess.
2007-03-10, 10:05 AM #57
Becuase it's American grammar. That's all. I personally think it's hogwash, and go with the european standards unless I'm writing an essay for school.

Regardless, I don't think we've convinvinced Alice that her commas are incorrectly placed, yet.
ᵗʰᵉᵇˢᵍ๒ᵍᵐᵃᶥᶫ∙ᶜᵒᵐ
ᴸᶥᵛᵉ ᴼᵑ ᴬᵈᵃᵐ
2007-03-10, 10:07 AM #58
Apart from it being proper English grammar, I haven't got any. Also, Alice Shade's a guy.
幻術
2007-03-10, 10:08 AM #59
I said "logical" reason, not "axiomatical" reason.

As for second, I`d love to hear your proof of it.
I don`t suffer from the lack of sanity.
It`s others, who have it in excess.
2007-03-10, 10:11 AM #60
We're saying that it isn't logical, it's just "The way it is." Not many people agree.
ᵗʰᵉᵇˢᵍ๒ᵍᵐᵃᶥᶫ∙ᶜᵒᵐ
ᴸᶥᵛᵉ ᴼᵑ ᴬᵈᵃᵐ
2007-03-10, 10:14 AM #61
Originally posted by TheJkWhoSaysNi:
Alice's example is right, but a bit confusing, let me try to make a very simple example.

Consider this:

"I like pies," he said. "made of meat," he continued.

This implies that he said "I like pies, made of meat" which does not make sense.

However, with the comma outside the quotes this is not a problem.

"I like pies", he said. "made of meat", he continued.


There are pretty glaring mistakes in both Alice's and yours: In Alice's, the use of a period-quotation mark-comma, and in yours the failure to capitalize the "M" in "made." I don't know if both of these are just typos, but in both examples rendering the quotation that way makes no sense at all. If he really said "I like pies made of meat," then give the full quotation and dispense with the "he continued." If he was interrupted by something that forced him to continue after a break, use dashes. If he added the second part as an afterthought, treat it as a separate sentence and capitalize it.

No one used to reading in English will look at

"I'm a little teapot," he said.

and assume that the speaker ended his sentence with a comma. Readers recognize that comma as a placeholder for a period.

It seems most of the ambiguity in these examples comes from the way they're written.
If you think the waiters are rude, you should see the manager.
2007-03-10, 10:20 AM #62
Well, I do not see the reason to repeat fallacies of the many, if they have no good reason, why do they do that.

There are many useless and plainly wrong habits around the world. It`s not the reason to use them, just because "everyone I knows does so".

Everything should have a logical and concise reason, why, and for what.
I don`t suffer from the lack of sanity.
It`s others, who have it in excess.
2007-03-10, 10:25 AM #63
For Great Justice.
幻術
2007-03-10, 10:28 AM #64
It still makes no sense to me having the punctuation inside the quote.

For example if I quoted you:
(this is just an example)

You said "There are pretty glaring mistakes in both Alice's and yours." You're right.

Is that one sentence or two? Since the full stop is inside the quote it looks like it's part of the quote not part of the sentence. But it is part of the sentence because the following Y is capitalised.

Saying:

You said "There are pretty glaring mistakes in both Alice's and yours". You're right.

is so much clearer.


Then you have the problem of other punctuation marks.

Are you correct in saying "There are pretty glaring mistakes in both Alice's and yours"?

putting the question mark inside the quotes would just cause confusion because it would look like a question was being quoted, not a statement.



Quote:
"I'm a little teapot," he said.

and assume that the speaker ended his sentence with a comma. Readers recognize that comma as a placeholder for a period.


It'd take me longer to interpret because I'm just not used to it.

Then again, I tend to write stuff like

"I'm a little teapot.", he said.

That makes sense, it just doesn't look very nice.
TheJkWhoSaysNiTheJkWhoSaysNiTheJkWhoSaysNiTheJkWho
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iTheJkWhoSaysNiTheJkWhoSaysNiTheJkWhoSaysNiTheJkW
2007-03-10, 10:35 AM #65
Originally posted by TheJkWhoSaysNi:
Then you have the problem of other punctuation marks.

Are you correct in saying "There are pretty glaring mistakes in both Alice's and yours"?

putting the question mark inside the quotes would just cause confusion because it would look like a question was being quoted, not a statement.


You are actually allowed to place the ? either in the inside or outside the quotation marks. Same goes with the exclamation mark.

For example:

Jeff Walters asked, "is that dflt.mat?"

Did Jaiph say to us, "I see dflt.mat"?
SnailIracing:n(500tpostshpereline)pants
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2007-03-10, 10:37 AM #66
Well, I guess, that clarity was sacrificed for calligraphy here.

I`m more used to deal with computers... So I`d better make things clear.
I don`t suffer from the lack of sanity.
It`s others, who have it in excess.
2007-03-10, 10:42 AM #67
Originally posted by Alice Shade:
Well, I guess, that clarity was sacrificed for calligraphy here.


Probably you can say the same thing for the "inflammable-flammable" issue.
SnailIracing:n(500tpostshpereline)pants
-----------------------------@%
2007-03-10, 10:48 AM #68
Most likely.

Though, to be honest, there might be more then one "tradition", that really serves no purpose - if not altogether detrimental.
I don`t suffer from the lack of sanity.
It`s others, who have it in excess.
2007-03-10, 10:50 AM #69
Quote:
alice_shadelefay: Excuse me? I just used coma for emphasing and pause. In accordance with YOUR rules.
alice_shadelefay: What flaw?
donny_d345: Find. A. Source. That. Agrees. That. Commas. Are. USED. For. Emphasis.
donny_d345: You won't.
alice_shadelefay: I JUST gave you an example.
donny_d345: No, a source.
alice_shadelefay: Find me a source, which tells my example is wrong.
donny_d345: Your example is your flawed logic. Commas CREATE emphasis. They're not placed in a sentence to encourage emphasis.
donny_d345: Alice, you're claiming commas are used as emphasis.
donny_d345: That you place them in your sentence where you'd pause.
donny_d345: This isn't in any website we've looked at. Wikipedia expressely disagreed with you.
alice_shadelefay: Don, once again. I put down coma to mark up emphased part of sentence. I dare you, find me anything that contradicts that.
donny_d345: I dared you first.
donny_d345: But, of course, you'd like me to do the more difficult search
donny_d345: It's easier to look at 20 pages about commas and not find your argument on it. It's far more difficult to find a page that specifically discusses your argument.
donny_d345: http://booksthatteach.com/books/grammar.htm
alice_shadelefay: Example, Don. Logically grounded example.,
alice_shadelefay: I don`t give a **** about RULES. I need examples.
donny_d345: That's stupid.
donny_d345: "Bob, broke a motercycle because, he couldn't find the clutch."
donny_d345: Does that still make sense without the commas?
donny_d345: Good, because it's grammatically correct without the commas.
alice_shadelefay: You placed comas wrong.
donny_d345: That's how you tend to place them, though.
alice_shadelefay: It`s "Bob broke a motorcycle, because he couldn`t find the clutch."
donny_d345: No, it isn't.
alice_shadelefay: Yes, it is. Prove it`s not.
alice_shadelefay: Coma separates two ideas.
donny_d345: They're not two ideas.
alice_shadelefay: Bob broke bike & bob didn`t found clutch.
alice_shadelefay: didn`t find.
donny_d345: BECAUSE
alice_shadelefay: Gah, I start to miss your inane times, too.
donny_d345: "Bob broke a motercycle. He couldn't find the clutch."
donny_d345: That's a seperation of ideas.
alice_shadelefay: ....And? You just shot yourself in the leg.
donny_d345: Jesus christ Alice! You just disagree and say that you're right because I can't "prove" it. There's no way to prove that you're wrong when you claim incorrect things.
donny_d345: And then I point out that they're incorrect, and offer sources. Several sources.
donny_d345: And you claim that they don't count because it's not proof.
alice_shadelefay: I already said, that I need logical reason.
alice_shadelefay: Is it that hard to understand?
donny_d345: Yes, it's very hard to understand.
donny_d345: You're definition of logical reasoning is pretty far ****ing fetched.
alice_shadelefay: Then try not to argue with lawyers. They`ll rip you to shreads.
donny_d345: Good god, you're not a lawyer.
alice_shadelefay: How so? I just told you - "Authoritative does not works. Logic does."
donny_d345: Granted, you don't have to write in my language when you're lawing.
donny_d345: OK, logically prove your point to me, then.
alice_shadelefay: I put comas where I make pauses, when I talk. Those pauses are logical separators for separate clauses, or emphasings.
donny_d345: That doesn't agree with modern English standards.
donny_d345: If you think it's logical, than ok. If you think it follows modern English standards, than you're wrong.
alice_shadelefay: It agrees perfectly with the need to convey my thoughts, no?
donny_d345: OK, you can say that. I can't disagree with that at all.
alice_shadelefay: Uh. Don, I never claimed second.
donny_d345: http://www.arts.uottawa.ca/writcent/hypergrammar/comma.html
alice_shadelefay: I say, that my coma placement is Right. I don`t say, that it`s per school standards.
donny_d345: Look at suberfluous commas
donny_d345: If by "right" you mean it fits your personal idea of "right" than so be it.
donny_d345: But those of us who use commas in the accepted english standard will be confused by your commas.
donny_d345: Because it IS difficult to understand you at times.
donny_d345: That was my initial point.


Finally.
ᵗʰᵉᵇˢᵍ๒ᵍᵐᵃᶥᶫ∙ᶜᵒᵐ
ᴸᶥᵛᵉ ᴼᵑ ᴬᵈᵃᵐ
2007-03-10, 10:53 AM #70
lol, seriously. This alice person is the most misinformed, misguided person I've ever seen. It's hilarious.
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2007-03-10, 11:02 AM #71
Originally posted by Echoman:
You are actually allowed to place the ? either in the inside or outside the quotation marks. Same goes with the exclamation mark.

For example:

Jeff Walters asked, "is that dflt.mat?"

Did Jaiph say to us, "I see dflt.mat"?



But those have 2 different meanings. In the first a question is being quoted. In the second a statement is being quoted. You cant do it the other way around, because that doesn't make sense.


Did Jaiph say to us, "I see dflt.mat?"

Does not make sense. In the same way that Jaiph said to us, "I see dflt.mat." makes it look like the . is part of the quote.
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SaysNiTheJkWhoSaysNiTheJkWhoSaysNiTheJkWhoSaysNiTh
eJkWhoSaysNiTheJkWhoSaysNiTheJkWhoSaysNiTheJkWhoSa
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iTheJkWhoSaysNiTheJkWhoSaysNiTheJkWhoSaysNiTheJkW
2007-03-10, 11:03 AM #72
Seriously what?

Hilarious how it took over hundred posts to come to simple understandind?

You`re right, it`s entirely hilarious.

Now get this... It`s not RIGHT. It`s standard. Now, let`s consider, that there are more slangs of english, then there are english-speaking countries, and let`s ask - is LOCAL standard right?

Hardly so. I would be hard-pressed to understand "ebonics", for example - yet people claim, that it`s a "part of english". Does that makes me misguided?

_______________________________________

The only veritable measure of right syntaxis is logic. Everything should be for a certain reason, and serve a certain purpose. If it does not - it`s obviously a "legacy code".
I don`t suffer from the lack of sanity.
It`s others, who have it in excess.
2007-03-10, 11:08 AM #73
edit: read it wrong
SnailIracing:n(500tpostshpereline)pants
-----------------------------@%
2007-03-10, 11:11 AM #74
It could be also taken, as query, weather Jaiph just posed a question - "I see dflt.mat?". Sounds awkward, but in plain talk, people often say even worse things.
I don`t suffer from the lack of sanity.
It`s others, who have it in excess.
2007-03-10, 11:26 AM #75
[quote=Alice Shade]It could be also taken, as query, weather Jaiph just posed a question - "I see dflt.mat?". Sounds awkward, but in plain talk, people often say even worse things.[/quote]

Mmm.
Attachment: 15660/weatherjaiph.jpg (26,448 bytes)
幻術
2007-03-10, 11:39 AM #76
On the plus side it looks like she has problems with the inverted comma too.
nope.
2007-03-10, 11:41 AM #77
Heh. Who`s on picture?
I don`t suffer from the lack of sanity.
It`s others, who have it in excess.
2007-03-10, 12:58 PM #78
I can't believe anyone actually cares,,,,,,

, ,

,, ooh look loose misplaced commas, aaaah!
/fluffle
2007-03-10, 1:00 PM #79
Oh, people care.

That`s what makes them humans - ability to care about something completely useless. ^_^

Sic Semper Humanis. (If I didn`t adgered latin. ^_^)
I don`t suffer from the lack of sanity.
It`s others, who have it in excess.
2007-03-10, 1:37 PM #80
Let's ask Purdue:

Apostrophe Use:
http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/g_apost.html

One may note no mention of either the Grave Accent or the dread Smart Tick.

I can't speak for my typewriter, as I would have to get it out of storage in order to check its layout, but I have never owned a computer with a keyboard including a typographic apostrophe on it.

As such, I have never had the urge to type in the ALT code every time I needed to use an apostrophe. Using a single tick is quite sufficient in almost all cases. Moreover, I've had numerous experiences with the use of typographic apostrophes, particularly Microsoft's so-called Smart Quotes turning into encoding hell, where the apostrophes transform into some other character or often string of characters, when transferring documents between platforms, programs, or even fonts. As such, usually the first thing I do when I run into such a usage is run a Replace to turn them all into ' and " anyways.


Commas after introductions:
http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/g_commaint.html

General Comma Use:
http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/g_comma.html


Commas Don't Always Mark Pauses:
http://www.pnc.edu/engl/writingcenter/comdon.html

More Basic Comma Rules:
http://www.pnc.edu/engl/writingcenter/comma.html

Grave Accent Use In English [yes it has some use]:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grave_accent#Use_in_English


Now I'm not actually going to go through and quote these all and say who is right or wrong where; however there they are as reputable references [the Purdue ones at least].


Quote:
Everything should have a logical and concise reason, why, and for what.


This is a very noble view of grammar. Unfortunately, I'm afraid you may be writing in the wrong language for it to hold very true. ;)

Generally when I encounter wonkiness in English grammar, I lay the blame on either the Normans, who basically destroyed English grammar and declensions for all eternity after their conquest, or the Victorians, who had a nasty habit of arbitrarily resurrecting and imposing grammatical rules from Latin in an attempt to 'purify' English.


Russian, however, is not without its grammatical quandaries as well. Unfortunately it's been too long since I spoke it to remember them precisely, but one of them as I recall has to do with inconsistent plural declension of numbers in I think it was the Genitive case. If I recall, there were three groupings of numbers each of which took a different declension, something like: 1, 2-4, 5-20, then 21, 22-24 took the same pattern as 1, 2-4 and so forth.

There is at least one theory about this, though: http://linguistlist.org/ask-ling/message-details2.cfm?AsklingID=200381728


As to the original quote:
Quote:
"If you are trying to say, that Indie is applied to bands, who are striking it out on their own... Used to be, but now, it`s pretty commercialised, as well."


I would be much more inclined to write this as:
"If you are trying to say that the term 'Indie' is applied to bands who are striking it out on their own, I would say that used to be the case; but now the Indie genre is pretty commercialized as well." :D

In this case, "that India is applied to bands" should not end in a comma as it is an essential clause viz: "If you are trying to say who are striking it out on their own," makes no sense.
Also, I can kill you with my brain.
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