This thread is designed to discuss the proposal of petitioning LEC to release the SDK for Sith Engine, the driving force behind the beloved Jedi Knight and MotS.

This can spark up the revival of Massassi and the JK community from it's evident decline despite two new installments and upgrades to the 21st century.

Discuss! This will only work if people organize!

------------------
Multiplayer Game Alias: II88BlackOps
UT2k4 is awesome!
Corrupted Paths, my dead WIP for JA. Screens here: http://imagebase.freewebspace.com/photo.html

My quote: "People choose to side with the left, and the others choose to side with the right. I go forward."

You know, as much as most of us doubt this will ever happen with certainty, the truth is, what could it HURT?

------------------
WOOSH|-----@%

how many times have we tryed this before?


------------------
...

I've got no problem sticking my name on something for you guys If it comes off, it's the community that will benefit!

------------------
If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards.

Good question. I don't think it has been done before, but if it has someone inform me. I would also like to know the process of the earlier petition and its results.

------------------
Multiplayer Game Alias: II88BlackOps
UT2k4 is awesome!
Corrupted Paths, my dead WIP for JA. Screens here: http://imagebase.freewebspace.com/photo.html

My quote: "People choose to side with the left, and the others choose to side with the right. I go forward."

<Insert obligatory pessimistic remark here>

------------------
Have a good one,
Freelancer

Although it will never happen, you could start a pettition. I'd sign it for sure.

[This message has been edited by Connection Problem (edited July 20, 2004).]

As a guess, I would imagine the results were a no (of at least some degree).

But trying again is always good

------------------
If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards.

Well, if you get anything done...

I'm in.

------------------
<landfish> FastGamerr > Satan

I would smear my name all over it.

You have to be at least the 4th person to mention this idea. Usually a lot of us say, "I'm in!" with several people saying, "This'll never happen." And it never does...

But, if I can help...I'm in.

------------------
"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity."

-Albert Einstein

[This message has been edited by SG1_129 (edited July 20, 2004).]

We first need to get the big guns of Massassi, basically a majority of the moderators, to support a petition foundation on this site. Then we can move on the next target: LEC.

I am thinking that there can be a petition of signatures (probably email addresses but I don't know) as well as a formal letter sent by email.

We must put Massassi on the map again, but I stress the fact that nothing critical can happen unless we organize a great deal of people. I am also thinking that we can get help from the folks at Lucasforums and JediKnight.net who are more or less in the world of JO and JA.

------------------
Multiplayer Game Alias: II88BlackOps
UT2k4 is awesome!
Corrupted Paths, my dead WIP for JA. Screens here: http://imagebase.freewebspace.com/photo.html

My quote: "People choose to side with the left, and the others choose to side with the right. I go forward."

The previous attempts never made it very far because they weren't organized. That's not to say that anything good would have come of it, but the lack of organization spelled a disaster from the beginning.

Didn't they also use the Sith Engine for some of the Indiana Jones games? It would be nice to have the SDK for those as well, while we're at it. I'm pretty sure there were some decent upgrades there.

What we really need is for Brian or someone to code up a nice petition form that can be advertised on the main website. Advertising and harassing people around the internet would help as well.

Oh, and although I know half of you are pessimists by nature, you can at least pretend to be optimistic, despite the fact that this is almost certain to fail (I made a funny).


------------------
www.MentatMM.com (status = down :/)
Napalm Death Squad (status = alpha)

[This message has been edited by MentatMM (edited July 20, 2004).]

I dont understand the point.

------------------
free mp3 ~Jump - Young America

new album Between the Dim and the Dark available now

Since this was my idea (this time around? I don't remember one actually happening, but the idea has been put forward), I'll offer my tidbit of knowledge. The only way this will work is if Brian supports it. If Brian helps to put it together and sanctions it as an act of Massassi, then it will fly as far as it can. It may not succeed, but it'll go somewhere.

------------------
-=I'm the wang of this here site, and it's HUGE! So just imagine how big I am.=-
1337Yectiwan
OSC Returns!!
10 of 14 -- 27 Lives On

I'm in. Btw, does anyone know how much the engine would actually cost to licence?

------------------
"Whats your name"
Cody
"No, whats your real name"
Arkon............
Proud member of the Co-op

Why would you want to license the Sith Engine when you can just get the Q2 engine for free?

------------------
"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity."

-Albert Einstein

Didn't I hear that JED was actually more organized and easier to use than what the editors from LEC had?

------------------
*

eerrrr........ you mean you can get the actual Quake2 Engine, make a game and sell it at retail stores. With no interferance from ID!?!?!?



------------------
"Whats your name"
Cody
"No, whats your real name"
Arkon............
Proud member of the Co-op

yes. And we're not talking about getting the ability to use LEC's editors, we're talking about getting the ability to change aspects of the game. The SINGLE PLAYER GAME. The SDK would enable us to completely change the game. Even rewrite parts of the engine if we were so inclined.

------------------
-=I'm the wang of this here site, and it's HUGE! So just imagine how big I am.=-
1337Yectiwan
OSC Returns!!
10 of 14 -- 27 Lives On

Well a team effort of Brian and Massassi stole my soul - the least I can do (and heck - want to do) is support this - if we can get any more information than we already know about COG then I'm all for it and the SDK would be a fantastic step forward both for the JK editing community as well as has already been mentioned - "increased revenue" for LEC, with the attention that could be gained for both parties. LEC could even gain huge ++ points with other online communities if they were seen to make the SDK "open source" per-se, advertising it on their main site (and I dare say the news would spread round the net quick enough, as there's still a fanbase that adore JK/MotS - I can't name any particular sites though... ) .

I just think that for a 7-year old game, there's certainly room for a "good PR exercise" by making a "charitable donation" to the online JK editing community . LEC certainly have no way of losing anything, and even if enhancements (with the aid of the SDK or at least any part of the SDK) was possible, the JK license stipulates that add-on levels must be made "non-profit" as well as reverse engineering of any existing code to improve gameplay is strictly prohibited (amongst all the other legal bumph). Personally, I don't see these points being anything major because we're all editing for free now (and look at the huge strides/discoveries we've made without an SDK), so it's not like we'd notice a difference or anything...

Just my tuppence worth of thoughts (and support)

-Jackpot

------------------
"lucky_jackpot is the smily god..." - gothicX
"jackpot is an evil evil man... so evil, in fact, that he's awesome." - Seb

"Life is mostly froth and bubble, but two things stand in stone,
Kindness in another's trouble, courage in your own"
("Ye Wearie Wayfarer" - by Adam Lindsay Gordon)

You're not talking about an "SDK" - you're talking about the full source code of the engine. There's no way they're going to do that. If I throw my hat into the basket of people asking for it, it will probably hurt more than help, simply because nobody at LEC likes me. They all think I suck for some reason or another.

------------------
Brian's Web Log is CLOSED.

Well, I can't edit Jedi Knight, but I'll support you so there wont be anymore whining!

------------------

"Bantha's are filthy animals.......I don't eat filthy animals."

"Laugh it up Fuzzball!"
-Han Solo

I was thinking more to get the site as a whole organized. The only reason a petition has never been put through to completion is because we've never had an organized backing.

Not to mention the other times it was proposed I'm sure half of the site was around 11 years old or so.

------------------
-=I'm the wang of this here site, and it's HUGE! So just imagine how big I am.=-
1337Yectiwan
OSC Returns!!
10 of 14 -- 27 Lives On

This has been done over and over, and to death already.

Unless Lucasarts falls under completely new leadership (aka John Carmack buys them for some miracle reason) then this will never happen. Lucasarts will continue to hold the source code until they no longer make any profit off of it, and then some time afterwards.

Not to mention, as Brian said, I don't think Lucasarts likes us too much.

------------------
"The future is not determined by a throw of the dice, but is determined by the conscious decisions of you and me."
I am addicted to ellipses!!! AHHH!!! ...
Make Sorrowind Worthwhile... join it! http://sorrowind.net

Just because they view editing as a violation of the EULA because they think we're changing their game... *pfft*

------------------
-=I'm the wang of this here site, and it's HUGE! So just imagine how big I am.=-
1337Yectiwan
OSC Returns!!
10 of 14 -- 27 Lives On

While JK and the indiana jones games are still being sold i doubt they'll release the source.

They've been rereleased by LucasArts too, not some 3rd party budget game company which means lucasarts are still making money from the games. They're selling them both for £15 here a lot for a budget game.

Anyway, i'd sign the petition just in case.

------------------
WARNING: THIS POST MAY CONTAIN TRACES OF PEANUT!
----@%

Although they dislike us, if they saw that the revenue of people purchasing the sith engine for 50-100 dollars would get them even more money that their current 15 dollar JK/MotS games, they might break. This would only convince them if they knew that more people than the 20 that've posted on this thread actually wanted it.

All I think we ask, brian, is that there's some sort of news post, and some section of the website deticated to it. Let's face it, this site needs a new cause, because few people edit JK now days, and the rest talk on the discussion forums. Everything else is pretty much gone. No tutorials, no mods, no new sections of the site. I think turning interests to this, if we got ALL of massassi involved, would scare the bageezes out of Lucasarts. Best off, if we got the JO/JA sites involved. Not only would their classic revenue be at stake, but their current, and future buyers would be angry, if they didn't release the source. It may not work, heck, I'm not so sure it'll work, but it's most certainly worth a new page, and a news post, maybe a few e-mails to other sites, and finally, presenting it to Lucasarts.

JediKirby

------------------
jEDIkIRBY - Putting the Romance back into Necromancer.
Proud Leader of the Minnessassian Council

Live on, Adam.

now for the shortest post that ive ever made...
im in, for both the engine and the lec development programs

------------------
Carter: "whats wrong?"
Daniel: "this tastes like chicken..."
Carter: "whats bad about that?"
Daniel: "this is supposed to be macaroni and cheese..."

Yes, as long as you abide by the GPL rules. Which, do allow for a commercial venture as long as you detail, to the public, what changes you have made to the engine. I think you might also have to include the GPL. I don't remember the conditions exactly, but I think there's only a couple.


------------------
"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity."

-Albert Einstein

I learnt a lot about LEC when I used to work at LFN. Namely, no way in hell would they cough up any form of SDK for the community. Ever.

------------------
Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian 1, 2 & 3 | Gonkmeg
Corrupting the kiddies since '97

*nod*

I did one once.

I think I got ethier 50, or maybe 100 sigs. :\

Didn't really do anything, kind of died.

You can try, I'll sign. *shrug*


(Wait, What about buying a liscene? sounds decent to me. They'd be making their money, and some of the developers around here would get their engine. )
------------------
"Judging by the name of the author, and the name of the work, I'd guess it's an energy "beam". You know, like in the Japanese cartoons where those guys with big hair fly around, talk philosophy, and shoot fireballs at each other." - Hellequin

[This message has been edited by Oberfeldwebell (edited July 20, 2004).]

I hate to say it but there is no in hell LEC is ever going release source code for ANY game they have made. They aren't like companys such as Valve who truely care for their game's community - they are just a corporation who are just interested in making the almighty buck. Raven Software would be more likely to give out the source code (they sorta did with the JO/JA SDK but that only contained game code, not engine code). Raven probably wouldn't because the Quake 3 engine is still being licensed because the Doom 3 game isn't out yet (Doom 3 just went gold BTW, which means Doom 3 engine license should be coming out pretty soon as well). Even if that happens, Raven probably still wouldn't be allowed because LEC would probably stop them because of the Star Wars license.

BTW... you guys aren't talking about SDK. You guys are refering to SOURCE CODE. An SDK is not the same because it means "Software Development Kit". If a set of tools were packaged together along with some tutorials, reference guides, and some source code, that would be consider an SDK. If I were to put JED, CogWriter, MatMaster, a few tutorials from Massassi, and sample cogs from the game and placed that in a zip and released it, THAT would be consider a SDK.

-- SavageX

------------------
"...and if you don't like that, then you need to be slugged in the face repeatedly, until my hands are soaked in blood. Have a nice day!"
http://geocities.com/savagex378

He has it wholly correct. I haven't come here in a long time, almost a few months, when before I used to come almost every other day (and before that, every day . . .). Why? There wasn't anything special to the site anymore. JK/MotS are classics yet are considerably inactive in comparison to other titles as well as its successors. Coming to the Discussion Forum wasn't a true visit to the site; that is why I just started going to LucasForums (I actually haven't been there for a few months until today).

From what I have heard, earlier petitions have had shortcomings in support, organization, and formality. This can all be changed. We just need the go-ahead. We need one man...

Brian

Declare it on its way, give it a specific place here, and rally the troops. They will rise to the call.

------------------
Multiplayer Game Alias: II88BlackOps
UT2k4 is awesome!
Corrupted Paths, my dead WIP for JA. Screens here: http://imagebase.freewebspace.com/photo.html

My quote: "People choose to side with the left, and the others choose to side with the right. I go forward."

Hypothesis: To my knowledge we seem to be the only community large enough to ask for the whole source of the Sith engine. Suppose that we get the source to the engine (methods left to imagination). Do you think that the programmers here have the time/knowledge to modify the engine to their needs. Even if all the programmers collaborate as one to make a single modification, I'm sure it would be great task. Sith engine uses OGL/DirectX yes? How many of us know OGL and/or DirectX. I don't. I know SOMETHING about programming languages so the only think I could tackle would be the COG but how many have complained about that?

We get alllll these source files and all they do is sit happy and pretty on the Massassi server.

------------------
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat.

Id add my name, of course, but it wont do any good. As Jeff, others, have said, LEC will *NEVER* give away their source. Accept it, and move on.

------------------
Dear lady, can you hear the wind blow, and did you know
Your stairway lies on the whispering wind.
:wq

Never gonna happen.

------------------
What once was...

Actually, we just a massassian to get hired by LucasArts, infiltrate the organization, and give us the source.

------------------
What once was...

Lucas, hah.

*bows to his jar jar binks limited edition 24 carat gold plated replica bust*

well... thats what the advert suggested i do... think about it from their perspective... either go through legal hassles and sign things to allow people to totally owne a game and an engine... or do nothing and continue to earn cash.

heh, Lucas.

Don't worry, one day he'll probablys release a remastered version of JK with a few added features...

------------------
Drugs & Stupidity, Tons of it.

It'd get improved. Someone would do it. Look at what happened with Freespace 2: Volition knew it would never be allowed to work on another FS game, so they release the source to the public, and now there's an improved Freespace 2, thanks to a few industrious people.

------------------
"Look at me! I'm Tracer! BLAHBLAHBLAH!"

-MBeggar