That's exactly what I was going to say.

This is going to be hard for you to swallow, but God did indeed know that sin was going to happen and he allowed it to happen because it would allow God to demonstrate mercy on an incredibly large scale.

God had already condemned Satan immediately after he fell, but for Satan, there is no hope for reconciliation. God had already demonstrated justice, but at the time, He had yet to demonstrate the merciful aspects of his character.

God has always known exactly who He was going to save, even before sin entered into the equation. Likewise, God planned for Christ to die even before the universe was created. Those who God has not saved are his enemies since they actively hate him; why do you feel that God is obligated to save any of them, much less the ones he has chosen?

Adam (and Eve, minus the penis) were created in his image. But then they fell.

And Bobbert - no, it's defintely not a choice. I know this is a drastic example, but do you choose to like chocolate? Do you choose to like tomatoes or turkey or rock and roll? You like and are attracted to what you like for whatever reason.

Although the problem with that comparison is that there are physiological differences between heterosexuals and homosexuals, but are thoses difference the cause or the effect?

And just in case anyone isn't sure: I'm not Christian. I'm attracted to both men and women, and I can't see anything wrong with that.

Recusant, fair enough. I've specifically avoided answering because I'm not interested in arguing, and I don't want to be baited into an argument. But I'll respond to your most recent question. I'm not going to go back through the whole thread, cause I've not read it, so if I've missed anything, feel free to mention it again, and I'll respond to it.




First, let me preface my response by saying that this sort of question is basically impossible to answer literally. There are many different branches of Christianity and each one believes different things about different subjects, including homosexuality. So I can't answer for all of Christians, but I'll give you my opinions on it.

Continuing below:

I agree that it may be especially difficult for some people to avoid sin in the area of homosexuality. But I don't believe homosexuality any different than any other sort of sin. As with any area of sin, some people are more succeptable to be tempted than others. It saddens me that many Christians or Christian groups put such a huge emphasis on homosexuality, specifically. In my mind, it's a sin just like any other.

Now, it may be difficult to avoid sin, but no one ever said Christianity was easy. Well actually, that's not true. People have said that, but they're wrong.

Does that make sense?

D:

So before you're born God knows whether you're "good" or "evil" which means it's not up to you at all is it? He's determined before you're born whether he'll save you or not. What you actually do has no effect. Which makes the whole idea of morality entirely moot because we have no free will.

This also means God created people just to watch them suffer and there's nothing we can do about it. I'm glad I'm not part of your religion.

So God's mercy is to set up a system in which he predestines sentient beings to everlasting pain and misery?
I don't hate God, I honestly don't think he exists. That's not hatred. If he exists and he made me this way to be as skeptical as I am and to not provide evidence for himself, then that's not even remotely my fault. Nor is that me "hating" him (how can I hate something I don't think exists? That'd be like me hating unicorns), yet according to Christian doctrine that's enough to condemn me and others like me to eternal pain. That is neither mercy nor justice.

Now assuming his existence, he wouldn't be obligated to save anyone, he's a superbeing and can do whatever he likes including being an ******. But according to most Christians I know, he's also omnibenevolent and in order to be that he'd be obliged to at the very least be fair to his creations.

God made me an atheist, who are you to question his wisdom?

The hatred is something that is gradually refined, but it is there since birth.

As I have stated, everyone is born infected with sin, (it's not so much what you do, but what you are) and even small children are bound by it. (ever notice how greedy and selfish babies and small children are?) People normally start to sow to their flesh very early in life, (after all, children never have to be taught how to do what is wrong) and they start to reap corruption from it as they grow up. The more people learn about the ways of the world, the more refined their opposition to God becomes. When this process reaches its full measure, someone's indifference towards God will begin to turn into direct opposition.

That's why there are so many staunch atheists who used to go to sunday school as children.

Actually, Vinny, fyi, many people will recognize that God is inherently genderless. We use male pronouns to describe him just because it's the accepted way of doing it, but the Bible says, "God created Man in his own image, male and female he created them. I think the word "Man" is refering to mankind, not specifically a male human, because of the next line, where the author lumps males and females together.

Well I think God is man. And I think more people think he's masculine than thing he's genderless.

Damn feminists ruining everything, even the bible.

probably true, but I think it's a misconception.

But anyway, what do you care? You're not Christian. :p

You are still hostile and rebellious towards God, but in a different way; you have simply convinced yourself that if you do not acknowledge God's existence, then he will go away and leave you alone.

I'm calling Poe's Law on Page, this can't be for real.

This thread is starting to deliver.

*eats popcorn*

Uh.... Page are you saying it's impossible to not believe in the Christian without hating it? It's silly enough for me to hate something that as far as I'm concerned doesn't exist but what of someone living in a remote part of Papua New Guinea? They won't even be able to conceive of the Christian god. Are they hating him too?

Why do bad things happen to Gay people?!

Dude.

You're trying to argue with pagewizard. Thats like arguing with Obi-kwiet over his mom, saying Freelancer's mom is hot, trying to convince yoshi that ATI sucks, infering that Joncy is wrong at anything, discussing fizicks with friend14, burning knightrider with ARTIC SILVER, expecting Tiberium_Empire to make a good thread, SF_Gold posting without being flamed, or being too serious on internet.

In other words, an excersize in futility.

HEART.

I hate unicorns.

.

Charity, in it's truer sense, I believe is more appropriate.

But he saved a handful compared to how many people supposedly died and were banished to hell.


This. Doesn't. Make. Sense. At all. Please help me understand how this makes sense.


God is subject to human concepts here, but when I ask why he kills babies and lets aids be a thing on earth, it's played up to the original sin/mysterious ways?



How does Jesus become the bridge? At what point does God decide to make a rule saying that it's impossible for people to go to heaven, and then goes back on it because his son dies. Why does this make any logical sense, and isn't just taken for truth because it's written? How does this in itself have any logical and testable (I don't mean provable, just something that can be applied to other situations) truths?

And your comments about children is called "SURVIVAL." Babies and children aren't innately born with an understanding of society. You're just taking our complex level of organization that we've developed in order to live longer as some universal description of "good."

If you would have asked me that question several months ago, I would've said no. Now I say yes.

What made you change your mind?

Religious misconceptions are running rampant on both sides of the fence in this thread.

Then enlighten us

Rob won this thread with the PBF.

Heh. If you're going to ask me to concede if I don't "enlighten" you, then I will. This discussion is a bit large to tackle all at once at this point (and time consuming).

But here is my summarized take on the matter:

On one side in this thread, we have some folks that appear to be arguing with regards to their personal beliefs or the beliefs of their denomination of Christianity. We all know that there are differences in religious beliefs (though they may derive from the same religion). An example of this would be Fred Phelps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps). He severely breaks away from core teachings of Christianity but would still proclaim himself a Christian (I'm NOT comparing anyone in this thread to him, heh). The issue I'm seeing in this thread is that the presented religious beliefs appear to be presented as generally accepted beliefs by all Christians, which is simply not the case. Furthermore, the other side in this thread appears to be readily accepting these beliefs as the generally accepted beliefs in Christianity and are using them to criticize Christianity as a whole.

But like I said, it's a big issue to address. The best that I can say (and I am willing to say.. -- yeah I'm being a bit lazy here) is that everyone should focus on the core Christian beliefs and not that of an individual or specific denomination. If there's some question as to exactly what those are, you may need to do some research. Focus on the core stuff -- the New Testament is far more representative of Christian beliefs than the Old Testament.

Edit- FYI

Exhibit A


Exhibit B:


Honestly, do I need to say more?

You REALLY want some pom-pons for your next birthday, don't you?

Nah, your mom left some over at my place last night. She can do this awesome spli-

Err, better not get banned on this one

Seriously though, even though Rob is not very well favored by me, that PBF was placed at the right time.

*Pops a few more popcorns into his mouth*

I haven't heard a "your mom" joke since 3rd grade, heh.

Yeah, I'm bringing them back. Along with stovepipe hats.

<3

Dudes, you're all forgetting that Jesus was totally gay. I mean, look at this picture of him about to lock lips with some guy that looks like a caveman.



That's gay if I've ever seen it.

*eats a handful of popcorn*

that's terribly offensive, money. please take it down.

Ignoring the fact I'm kidding, what is "terribly offensive" about suggesting Jesus is homosexual? I might understand your offense if I were implying he were a rapist or some other sort of utterly abhorrent person, but gay?

That said, I'll take it down if enough people are genuinely offended.

Go say Muhammed is gay in the Middle East and see what happens.

see above.

How is that the same as calling Jesus gay?

So...he should take it down because you think all Muslims are humorless, reactionary zealots?