And what does this support? Taking those untrained people's guns away?



If someone is out to kill and you know it, call the ****ing police.



Just stop typing.

Jlee, STOP RESPONDING AS IF I WAS TALKING ABOUT YOU DIRECTLY WITH EVERYTHING, as I have said, not everyone is police trained with a fancy gun. Also, the reason why criminals are afraid of being shot is that from what i have gathered from you, that a citizen has LESS restrictions about when they can shoot to kill than a police officer.

There are law abiding citizens in other countries that upon visiting the us that probably fear getting shot by some paranoid person with a concealed carry, because if someone is that worried about encountering someone that is going to kill them, then most sane people would realize that there is a possibility of a harmless action setting them off.

The sign of an unhealthy society is the abundance of criminals, not an abundance of legal gun owners.

Let's check out your home state:



But hey, it never happens, right?

thanks for telling me, i will avoid vistiting those states, as there must be some sort of mega crime wave that is going on that required laws that let anyone carry around an unconcealed firearm. After all, what other reason other than the state being close to breaking out into many violent riots could there be that could justify such a law.

but seriously, I will be avoiding those states.

I'm just reading a bunch of land owners threatening intruders' lives with firearms. I don't see how this is a good thing at all. I guess you appreciate the overwhelming sense of justice as we hold people's lives hostage because we value our personal property over human compassion.

I am not afraid of thieves. They're petty misguided individuals who want a quick buck. They're not savage bears tearing apart my home looking for my first born.

Harmless action like what. How often do tourists get shot in the US because people who legally carry concealed weapons are powder kegs. Flashing your concealed weapon in public like a moron is only asking for trouble, and I'm sure many of these people are highly aware of it.

All you've been doing is throwing out hypothetical situations.

As I said, anybody else can get just as good as I am. By the way, my firearm is significantly less expensive than many other options available.

No, a citizen does not have less restrictions - how you could possibly determine that from what I have said, I have no idea.


Do you realize that, statistically, CCW permit holders are less likely to commit violent crimes than police officers? Where are all these paranoia-induced shootings you keep talking about?

So I should not to be able to defend myself -- even if the robber (on a rare occasion) decides to rape a 5 year old kid and murder us afterwards?

And yes, it makes me feel alot safer. I don't give a **** how often it happens. It happens. The fact that I'm able to defend myself and my loved ones when it does happen makes me feel safer. It has nothing to do with paranoia. It is simply about being prepared.

but Jlee said that the police are useless and that you would be dead by the time they arrived, so the only solution is carrying a gun to kill them before they kill you [/megasuperduperultrasarcasm

if they know how to avoid trouble, WHY THE HELL DO THEY NEED A GUN?

Well, since violent crime in Vermont is 70% lower than the average of the other states, you can't say you base your decisions on fact - which doesn't put much confidence in the rest of your arguments. What say you to this, master debater?

Because IT ONLY ACTS AS A LAST RESORT. SH*T HAPPENS. If they never use it in their lifetime, then WHOOPIE DO. Good for them.

If you know how to avoid accidents, why carry insurance on your car? If you don't know how to avoid accidents, why the hell are you driving?

So buy a home alarm system, or a print-key, or some other preventative measure. The gun is hardly as necessary, useful, or safe as you're making it out to be.

You're choosing volatility over security. You'd rather have a drastic level of mortal control over your home instead of a secure home.

I must've missed the part where I said I would shoot somebody who was not threatening unlawful violence while committing a felony, serious bodily injury, or death to myself or a third person. Care to remind me?

Home alarms don't protect well against nutcases outside of your house.

Just FYI.

You do know that having a gun as your ONLY security is STUPID, and that sexual preditors go after the easiest targets, so if you had things like decent locks on your doors and windows, you are far less likely to be targeted.

Where did anybody say that having a gun as your ONLY security is a good idea?

Yes, people do go after the easiest targets. Speaking of that, you never did answer me when I asked if my house would be the first on your burglary list. Care to answer that for me?

This is a good point, but still a very far and few between incident. I've got reservations about having an armed society bent on equalization. But I can see a legitimate need for civilian security in this point.

and outside has many more places for someone that actualy is out to hurt you can hide. Also, tell me, even in an unconcealed carry area, if somone is going to try to kill you, they will hide their weapon and their intent until the last second, so unless you are THAT paranoid that you keep your hand on your gun at all times (in which case, you either are not mentaly stable enough under most states gun laws to be carrying one, or something such as the witness protection program would probably be a better less stressful option.), it is quite likely that they will have their gun drawn at you before you can get yours out, so they will have a head start on getting the first shot.

No. I'm choosing to have the ability protect myself and loved ones when necessary.

And yes, I do have an alarm system...Comes with the apt.

I never said that.

The crime rate of concealed carry permit holders is significantly lower than that of the general population. I'm not saying that everybody needs a gun or that our entire society should be armed. Believe me - there are people that shouldn't be carrying. However, I believe that those who have the right to carry, and the proper mindset, have every right to do so. Armed citizens have stopped many violent crimes.

I think of it this way - what if I were in the same place as a mass murder (Utah mall shooting, for example) and I was unarmed. Even if I wasn't a cop...I own firearms, I know how to shoot...could I live with myself if I was in a situation where I could have saved lives, yet failed? That would be hard to take.

Also, can anyone here plese explain why it is that many other countires arent under mob rule, because the way you guys are acting seems to tell me that there is a general idea that civilian ownership of guns is the only thing stopping criminals from going on massive crime sprees. (i thought it was to stop england from invadeing and the south from trying to form their own nation :rolleyes:)

Or maybe you are in a convenience store and robbers come in. Or in a bank. Or restaurant.

Or maybe you see someone getting raped or mugged violently in an alleyway and you can do something about it.

Or maybe you're sitting in a mall and suicidal maniac comes in and starts shooting. It could be a school. Or whatever.

We could go on and on with these "what if..." situations...

You seem to have this 'wild west' view of America. Read the link I posted above. Not every violent crime is a draw-down shootout on Main Street. Stop watching so many movies.


...


And for the third time, please answer my question.

and in the chaos and confusion, how would others know that you are someone trying to stop the shooter and not the shooter themself, or even and accomplice? hmmmmmmm?

Unless they actualy saw the person who started shooting first, and saw that you were trying to shoot that person, they might just think that YOU were the person who started shooting. and what would happen if one of those people ALSO had a gun on them?

Can either of you explain how other countries with gun laws have lower violent crime rates?

I'm telling you that an individual citizen has a Constitutional right to bear firearms in defense of themselves and others.





So obviously, the best option is to run away and leave everyone else to their fate. Fortunately, Mr. Hammond has more guts than you do.

Can you supply a source on violent crime rates regarding the US vs other countries? Please?

yeah...

how bout an example from somebody that hasnt taken more than the training that comes with the basic gun?

That bears no relevance to your last post. Nice dodge, but not good enough.

You answer my question and I'll give you another example. If you were to burglarize a Massassian's house, would mine be first on your list? Why or why not?

also, you guys have a constitutional right to free speach, but it doesnt stop things like strategic laws against participation, which california needed to make a specific law against, and a number of companies have managed to use the DCMA to take down websites that are non-infringing.

Stop changing the subject.

no, because most burglers would do some study, and would go for an easy target, which means that someone who has police training is definatly NOT an easy target.

Do you know for a fact that most burglars know the occupation of the residents that live in the homes they break into? If you do, please provide some sort of proof.

And now, to hold up my end of the bargain:

http://www.nraila.org/ArmedCitizen/Default.aspx

Pick a state and hit 'search'.

becuase the NRA is going to be the least biased source when it comes to storys involving gun ownership.

Why do I have the feeling that you didn't even look at the link? Ahhh...maybe because if you actually did, you would realize that each incident cites the NEWSPAPER that reported the story. Imagine that!

Wow, jedikirby, you have some distorted views of how society works. And alpha1, you have distorted views on just about everything. Why do you keep talking like you know everything? "Oh, a burglar would do this, they wouldn't do that!" "Why was this law created that allows people to carry guns in public?" "Americans suck with guns, they don't know how to use them!"

You have a complete lack of understanding of every one of these subjects.

1. You don't know anything about anyone else, and don't act like you do. Neither do I, except I know it. If someone ever is inside my house, I'm not going to lay in my bed and assume they mean no harm because they "probably don't". I don't play with probably when my life is on the line potentially.

2. In regards to you saying that concealed carry people might get spooked and shoot someone: it's not like you just go to the police station and say "i want a gun!", they give you one, you walk out and get surprised by someone around a corner and blow them away. At least in my state, you take a class, get put in the system, and are only allowed to pull your gun if you feel you are in imminent danger. Like, to your life. That means someone pulls a knife near you and is threatening you or someone pulls a gun. It's not a toy, it's a last resort.

3. You keep saying someone might not die after getting shot, and they could get a shot off. Well, then don't play around like it's a video game and you have to conserve ammo for the next level. You pump as many into them as you feel is necessary to end the threat, as fast as possible.

4. We shouldn't have to create laws to create freedoms, we should already have those freedoms.

5. What was really wrong with those statistics? You said that you can't compare the rates because...i don't know why, you just said that you should compare total numbers. Do I have to tell you that the US population is over 300 million and australia's is less than 21 million? Do you really think that comparing the total number is reasonable?
And as far as the length of the study goes, just look at the final number, or match a year to a year.

To quote the websites:
for the US: During 2005, there were an estimated 469.2 violent crimes per 100,000 inhabitants.
for australia (for assault ONLY, not all violent crimes): The rate in 2005 was 819 per 100,000 compared with 623 per 100,000 in 1996.

So wait, one TYPE of violent crime in australia's rate was 819 per 100,000, and yet all of the reported violent crime in the us adds up to a rate of 469.2 per 100,000? I don't care how different the criteria are, that is very telling. Telling that guns are NOT ENOUGH OF AN ISSUE TO BE CONCERNED WITH.

You're also acting like we're all paranoid gun crazy murderers who can't wait to kill the next person we see who gives us an excuse. What you need to understand is that all we're saying is that 1. There is no significant harm in us owning guns and 2. in the extremely rare case that we are threatened, we can and will use them.

The pro-gun lobby seems to be generally based on the absurd pseudo-Christian ideal of some clearcut line between 'good' people and 'bad' people. 'Good' people are always good and will always be good and must defend themselves against 'bad' people who will always be bad and should die!
Anyone is capable of doing terrible things if in the wrong circumstances. Adding guns to into this environment makes every circumstance more dangerous.

Imagine a happily married law-abiding gun-carrying citizen who comes home late from work, and finds his wife cheating on him. It would be so very easy just pull out this gun and shoot them both. In an instant, the law-abiding citizen is now a murderer.
If he didn't have this gun, he'd possibly try and beat the crap out of the guy but he has a whole lot more chance of getting away. With a gun, he has no chance. Firearms make it very easy for 'good' people to become 'bad' people very quickly.

I entirely agree with Jedikirby. The idea of a society where every individual is scared into submission by the fear of every other individual seems like a terrifying society to live in. Being terrified of doing anything to wrong your neighbour in case he might shoot you, and your neighbour likewise being terrified of you.
My problem is, I simply don't trust my neighbour. Hell, I don't even trust most of you and I'm fairly glad there's a big pond separating us. Many of the people around me are idiots. At the moment, they're harmless idiots. Giving these idiots guns makes them dangerous idiots.

You all assume that these 'good' law-abiding gun-carrying citizens will be perfectly rational in judging a situation as to whether deadly force is necessary. I'm not going to risk my life on that assumption.
Giving everyone the right to carry guns is entrusting my life in the rationality of those around me. As we're seeing time and time again, those around me are not rational, not reasonable, and not educated. Call this a controversial point, but I'm more afraid of retards with guns than I am of 'the government!!!'.