I feel safer when people don't carry guns about in the open.

bob, the reason why a whole lot of people outside the US tend to see the US gun lobby as paranoid gun nuts is the way they give the message that if any sort of law restricting gun ownership is enacted, that the govenment will somehow go all dictatorship on you, dispite the fact that it is deeply in debt and in no way could afford the loss of trade with basicly every major democratic nation by suddenly deciding to massively oppress its citizens.

Try and think about how people see your country, you try and make it seem like you are a safe nation of freedom, yet your populace feels the need to own lots of guns (which to many people, is a sign that a nation is unstable), a government that preaches freedom yet ignores many conventions on human rights, you claim to have a fair democracy yet have constant controversies over your elections, not to mention that your nation has to my knowelge, suffered less than 10 attacks from an enemy nation on its mainland (pearl harbour, a single japanese balloon bomb that reached the US during world war 2, and the september 11th attacks, and possibly some other terrorist attacks could possibly be considdered a foriegn attack) since the civil war yet you act as if there could be sudden extreme civil disorder requireing you to be well armed (otherwise there would not be a problem with having limits on the numbers of firearms a non collector can own.).

To sum up, you complain a lot about things that could happen, and are afriad of restrictions causing a loss of all rights, dispite the fact that many other nations have maintained a good standard of living without having all those constitutional rights that you have (laws are just as good as giving rights, deal with it, heck even court decisions can define specific things as being a right), and have suffered violence in the past and gotten over it.

Is germany an oppressive dictatorship just because things such as naziism and holocaust denial are illegal there, NO.

Is Australia bad because our prudish government has put severe restrictions on the purchase and disemination of pornography, NO.

Does the first ammendment of the united states constitution stop all censorship? NO. You have stopped the government from performing cencorship, but allow unaccountable third parties to do it, and said third parties are usualy conservative in their beliefs in what is appropriate and are very unwilling to make adjustments for changes in the way society views certian things.

The Constitution applies to the Federal government, not to third parties. There are already lots of laws restricting gun ownership, especially in certain states. The 'assault weapon ban' was enacted in 1994, and had practically no effect...it expired in 2004 without renewal. Mass shootings did not ensue. More states have right-to-carry laws than they did 30 years ago, and violent crime is not skyrocketing. Care to explain?


Why should there be a limit on the number of firearms one can own? You can't shoot them all at the same time. I have a right to own as many as I like. Most of them aren't for self-defense (believe it or not, people enjoy target shooting too).



Again, statistically, CCW holders are less likely to commit crimes than the general population. Are you not understanding this? I probably deal with more 'bad guys' in a typical month than you deal with in a..well, in a long time...and you don't see me running around paranoid, do you? I get the impression that you think everybody in the US is scared of someone else. You're entirely wrong, and you're making arguments based on your unsubstantiated opinion. That's not a good way to go.

I find it interesting that most people arguing against the right to own firearms don't live here. I can't help but wonder if the media portrayal of this country differs greatly from how it actually is over here.

alpha1 - no comments on those news stories, hmm? Were you disappointed when you found out they weren't NRA propaganda?

Master of the obvious. The portrayal by OUR media differs from how it actually is here.

Well, that too...lol

I have to chuck in my two penneth and agree with Mort Re: dangerous idiots. I think the key to all this lies in compromise via effective gun control. I expect that America will never ban firearms EVER. You all just have a love affair with them, and to an extent that's fine; that's just the way it is. The problem with that is that it seems that (and I say seems, obviously I'm Britlandish and have practically zero hands on experience of the matter) ANY TOM, DICK, HARRY, IDIOT, LOONY OR F**KNUT can get his hands on firearms because of fairly poor gun control.

Case in point, the chap who committed the massacre at Virginia Tech. It is obviously an isolated incident, but somehow this bloke who was clearly unstable (and I say clearly because he'd been seeking professional help for his poorly brain) was able to apply for, and get a license to buy guns. As long as this and things like it can happen, there is a problem and it WON'T GO AWAY.

In a perfect world, everyone who successfully applies for and gets a gun should have been vetted personally, and should be able to use it responsibly for sport, home defense or never at all. Obviously we don't live in that perfect world but the US should strive for that standard continually, or it will continue to see such things happen on a regular basis.

I just read it

What is it supposed to indicate, that there is a magazine that cherrypicks incidents of guns helping to fight crime? I'm sure someone else could start an "archive" of all the times people have shot themselves in the face with a gun, too, it doesn't mean anything afaics

I've just skimmed the discussion, but it brings to mind a quote on one of my friends' shirts:


"When you outlaw catapults, only the outlaws will have catapults."

Seems to be the same with guns.

Yes. You found one instance where having a gun could possibly facilitate a crime of passion. I could just as easily come up with five scenarios where someone having a gun could save innocent lives. Or five scenarios where any given object could end innocent lives. Making up "what if" scenarios is a stupid, stupid way to argue. All you've done is demonstrated why we punish crimes of passion less severely than premeditated crimes.



Too bad, because that's how it is always with or with out guns. Guns just make it more fair. A small person is going to be afraid of doing something bad to a big guy because he knows he'll get the crap beat out of him. But, with out guns a big guy with no respect for the law doesn't need to think twice about doing something bad to a little guy.


That's why it's not as easy to get a gun as it is to get a TV, and why being reckless with firearms will get in BIG trouble. It works the same way with cars.



Ok, so, when some phyco walk on to your campus and starts shooting people, you would prefer that all of his targets are unarmed? People make mistakes, but making them totally defenseless is stupid. And, of course, people with guns have to be educated on how to respect them, and strict laws need to be in place to govern their use. We don't give a pistol to some kid right off the streets and tell him to go wild. In order to get a conceal carry permit, you have to attend a class where they train you how to properly use it and when it is legal to use. For instance, shooting a guy who's running away from an attempted robbery will probably land you in jail. Look at the US. Instances where people with a conceal carry permit kill people due to negligence are virtually nil.

I suppose you want a pat on the back for making horrid generalizations?



So does adding matches and gasoline to the environment. Hell, even add clorox and vitamins to the picture and you got some deadlier **** than guns.



People don't become 'bad' because they have firearms. You're also assuming that everything will just be fine and dandy in this situation if there is no gun which is -- simply put -- not true. Are you going to take away knives and bats, too?



That's another horrid assumption. You are assuming that everyone is terrified of everyone. You're assuming that everyone is going to carry their weapon everywhere and shoot someone if they look at them.



You assume they are all "bad" or somehow will magically become "bad" because they bought a gun.



The assumption is that your life is in some sort of grave danger if someone has gun stashed somewhere in their house. From the sounds of it, you are living in fear of everyone in your society.



By that same logic I'm entrusting my life by letting you buy steak knives.



No. I would say you are severely insecure about society and can't get yourself past the thought of being above everyone else. I'm sorry I have to say that, but that's the message I'm getting from your post. D:

I truly cannot understand how you are making this absurd connection between owning guns and being terrified of everyone else in the country. I also find it disturbing that you are so cynical as to think no one else can be trusted with guns. It sounds to me like you're the terrified one, so you assume everyone else is. Again, people assuming that they understand how something works when they have zero understanding.

Edit: I jut actually read the post before mine.....and basically what I'm saying is "YEAH, WHAT HE SAID!"

Edit again: to help you understand.

Maybe to you guns are some huge deal, either because you don't have them or because very few around you do. In most of america, small town america, namely out of big cities and NOT in california or new york, guns are no big deal. Sure, most people's contact with guns may be the police, the army, and movies about police, army, or criminals, but around here guns are just a part of life. They are abundant, and their mystique is torn away. It's just not a big deal. And so there is little fear. I think that is the problem here...cultural misunderstanding.

Read my post. The situation is far from bullet proof (pun intended, and in no way regretted)



How many school "molotov cocktailings" do you hear of? Guns have an undeniable prevalence in the matter we're speaking of (school shootings)




Frankly you should be, if you knew the sort of people who are living in all our societies. Some of them even go to schools and shoot people!


Mass murder by steak knife: not the issue.




It's a good message. If half the idiots I went to school with had ready access to guns there would be grave need for fear living around them. Angry idiots are bad enough when they hang around in their sad little groups on street corners: the minute one of them got a gun the peer pressure to use it (and dear god do they live by the peer pressure) would be to them inescapable.


I have to say I HATE playing the quote tennis game, but sometimes there's just too much irrelevant ****e to ignore. As a rule GUNS ARE BAD IN THE HANDS OF CERTAIN PEOPLE and unfortunately in the US it's FAR TOO EASY FOR THOSE CERTAIN PEOPLE TO GET THEM. So it should be harder. So the normal people can enjoy their guns.

As an aside, if I lived in America, there's a good chance I would enjoy shooting, because I think given a big enough field and enough spare timber I would like to build siege engines. And they are weapons too. So I'm not a bleeding heart liberal who just hates guns. I'm a normal person who enjoys explosions more than most.

No person with half a brain wants any person to be able to carry any gun or even own any gun.

And as for the rest of you idiots;

Sit back and read this thread. Nobody is listening to eachother. You all keep assuming you know what the other person's stance is because you summed it up as "pro" and "anti" from the first thing they said.

This is part of why fundamentalists hate western culture. Not America, not Australia, not the Brits, but western culture. Overgrown egos and the inability to listen. It's an ailment they also suffer from, but hypocrisy is rampant on both "sides"

I try hard to make the society around me a better place in my day to day life. But armchair idiots like yourselves continue to carry out moral crusades based on caricature and stereotype. **** you.

Okay you can't have guns. So angry! Take 'em away!

Let me add value to this post. Did you know that cars are pretty easy to get your hands on legally, and legally be able to drive? Did you also know that every time you drive your car, your life is put into the hands of everyone around you who is driving their car? The most dangerous thing most people will do in their life may very well be driving 70mph down a highway with a pack of cars in front of and behind you doing the same thing, while another pack of 3,000-5,000lb cars scream by you at a relative speed of 140mph only a few feet away.

So be cynical and cower, terrified, in your corners from the rest of the world, it's fine. We're out here living.

Yes, I can imagine how over two million instances of this happening a year would be cherrypicking articles.