http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0226guns0226.html

What do you guys think about this? Sure, having other people armed with guns during a school shooting would be a quicker response than waiting for the police, but I'm not sure it's the right way to go. Inviting vigilantism probably isn't the best idea, and like the article says, would probably create extra confusion during a shooting.

I guess I'd vote no.

The bill specifically does nothing more than allow guns on campus -- that much I am (nervously) okay with. I think universities can reasonably decide what security measures are appropriate. That said, I still believe that it's the right of any school, public or private, to prohibit possession of firearms on-campus, and that every school should exercise that right. On-campus possession of firearms would lead to far more deaths through accidental shootings and crimes of passion than have resulted from school shootings.

Really, this measure is less about saving lives than it is about saving us from hand-wringing over high-profile killings.

As far as I know, there's no major private universities in Arizona. Since all our schools, big universities to community colleges, are state/county operated, this would go into effect all over the state.

I surely wouldn't want it over here. But then again, as far as I know, concealed-weapons permits don't exist in this country so it would be a moot point in any case. If it was some official guards permitted to carry guns then I guess I wouldn't mind (not that there would be any real use even for those but I guess theoretically it could make a difference in a hypothetical case). But would I want random dudes carrying pistols around, eyeing each other nervously, fingering the tricker under the coat like in some bloody Western? Really, now... A university is a place of learning and science, not a battleground.

Ah, I may have misunderstood. My interpretation was that the bill would make it permissible for state universities to allow guns on campus, but leave it up to the individual universities whether they actually would. If this bill is taking that decision out of the hands of the universities, then... well, hell no.

At my school they canceled the annual Assassins game halfway through because someone saw a nerf gun and called the cops (who entered the classroom with guns drawn). Then the vice chancellor sent out an email about how inappropriate such games are and instructed students to get nerf guns off campus as soon as possible lest they be confiscated.


...:suicide:

I'm fine with this. Remove a "safe zone" for ****ed up shooters, since now they can't just assume nobody is carrying.

Carp: zero-tolerance is such a crock of ****.

One of those ideas that look good on paper, wouldn't work on real life and Americans fap over whatever the results and yell "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED".

Ha.

It's not going to work as a deterrent either. These guys who go nuts always seem to finish it off by killing themselves. If they don't plan on surviving it anyway, why would other people having guns stop them? They'd probably appreciate going down in "a blaze of glory" in their minds.

Seems like a bad idea to me. Isolated and very rare incidents shouldn't mean that the student population escalates it into a larger proportion of guns on campus.

You all make valid arguments, but I think you missed a detail. This law would only pertain to concealed-carry permit holders. These are supposably people that the authorities have already screened, and the numbers of people with CC permits that commit crimes with their guns are proportionately very low. (I construe this to mean that people who commit crimes with guns also flaunt the CC laws) And then the article spins some crap about elementary schools.

If they had really thought about it, they would have written a bill that posted a few undercover police officers at every school. That seems to be what school resource officers are for, and they can carry guns in school already.

My answer is yes, definitely. I don't feel like expounding.

I don't see a problem with it. I don't really think schools should be some special zone...I mean, it's not a special zone to me. It's where I am every day. I'm not afraid of people with legal guns and the legal right to carry them. And you know what? Who knows, maybe it'd help someday when jimmy hateseveryone decides to go crazy and fires one shot before getting put down. I mean...if someone's going to go on a shooting rampage, I don't imagine his legal right to carry would really be a concern to him. It's only a concern to currently sane, law abiding people.

Except that in the midst of the chaos a gunman creates, students turning around to fire back could turn ****ing ugly. With people running all over the place, range-trained stressed-out students in the face of danger are just as likely to accidently shoot an innocent.

Not to mention the confusion this could create.

---

Student A walks in and starts gunning people.

Student B manages to bring him down.

Student C didn't spot A in the midst of chaos but saw Student B bring another down. Student C opens fire on Student B.

Student D realising what is happening tries to interve between C and B and tries to pull the weapon out of C.

Student B, being fired at is confused and scared ****less so he turns around to fire back.

Student D falls.

Student C, now convinced that it IS B opens fire and takes B down.

Student C is then arrested in the confusion and trialed as the real killer.

---

Sounds comical, like you'd see in a comedy movie, but believe me that in the midst of such chaos some will lose their heads to the heat. They are not trained cops.

I must say, for all the worry over concealed carry holders getting into gunfights with others because they don't know who the real threat is, I don't recall ever hearing of an instance of this happening. Not saying that it hasn't (I would be interested to see an article of it), but it doesn't seem to have been a problem so far for all the panic it seems to create about the possibility of a big gun battle.

Exactly Jep. A school shooting, tragic enough on its own, would quicky escalate into a minor war if everyone's packing.

Well, a gun battle couldn't happen on campus because no one is allowed a gun. So where else have there been shootings where a battle might have happened? I can't think of anything.

Just having guns on campus isn't the solution. Having more people who are properly trained to use them and are trained to handle situations where someone is shooting up the school is.

Jep, your example is ridiculous.

Off the top of my head, there was the Trolley Square Massacre that happened just a few miles from where I live, plus any other mall shootings that have happened in recent times.

His example isn't that ridiculous, Free.

Perhaps not enough people carry a concealed weapon that it would matter.

I think you guys are vastly overestimating the number of people who carry concealed weapons, and vastly underestimating human beings.

I can see how multiple guns being pulled could cause confusion, but keep in mind that, in this hypothetical case, someone just started unloading into a crowd or something. These are guns, not spitballs. It's going to be fairly obvious who is doing the shooting to anyone in the vicinity. Anyone not in the vicinity really has no business doing anything. Also, people aren't robots. Their thought process is going to be a little bit more complex than just shooting anything that is holding a gun. And finally, to support that, even in Oklahoma, probably one of the most liberal (in the classic sense) states as far as gun control goes, requires you to go to a training class that is primarily about when using force is appropriate.

Again I'm really kind of saddened that people distrust and fear each other so much. You'd think that the people with the guns would be the crazy rednecks who think everyone is out to get them, and those against guns would be the ones saying people are generally smart and good, so guns aren't necessary. That's what I used to assume. But in my experience, the exact opposite is true. The people with the guns are the trusting ones with faith in humanity (and a healthy respect for the unforeseeable), and the ones against guns seem to think we're all morons and psychos who could snap at any second.

I wonder how many people would get a license though, if they could take their gun to school.

For me its a moot point, since not only do I live in the state where their concealed carry permit is one of the most sought after in the nation because its recognized by so many other states, but students with concealed carry permits here in Utah are already allowed to carry their guns on campus on any public university or college, and have been able to for years.

The people I've met with concealed weapons permits are always nutjobs.

Kinda like more cops or security guards?

How much training do you need to go through to get a concealed carry licence? I've heard cops talk about training for "condition black" or something, the idea being to train so that everything is a natural reaction and relatively simple, allowing you to continue to function even when you're in full on adrenaline mode.

I'm pretty sure the training depends on the state. I won't pretend like it'll make you into a Marine or anything. Oklahoma's training at the school my friend's went to was one (full) day.

http://www.usshootingacademy.com/training/lawenforcement/250/

You don't have to be a trained cop to handle situations like that. You have to have level head and take a conceal carry course. It would be different if it were a war zone with large groups of people facing off, but it's not that hard to tell an indiscriminate shooter from someone trying to find one indiscriminate shooter in a crowd. I think you'd be hard pressed to find many, (if any at all) incidents of this happening. I mean it's possible that this will happen to a person every once in a great while, but it's sure a heck of a lot better than a guy walking on to campus a shooting thirty people with out resistance.

Again, it's a concern but the stats just don't bear it out. Even if they did, it'd still be better than the alternative. Conceal carry isn't anything new. It's been in effect out side of campuses with out any problems for some time now.

It's funny that people like you claim that communism only works in a "perfect society", but are perfectly fine to believe that everyone would keep their cool if people started firing.

There is a big difference between capitalism and shooting someone to death.

Stop talking. Seriously. You're an idiot of you think random dude number seven with a gun will do anything more than contribute to the problem.

Police train specifically for these kinds of situations. They go through classroom training and then they put into practice in simulated live fire exercises. The teams sent into take out the bad guy are highly trained with their guns so that they don't miss and shoot an innocent civilian. They constantly practice shooting so they are accurate with their shots.

Citizens with conceal carry permits are not. End of story.

Guys, thread over. Avenger said so.

No one every listens to me.

When was the last time you were in a fight Obi? One where you thought you might get really ****ed up?

I don't know about you but for me the adrenaline hits pretty hard. I'll be shaking afterwards for a few minutes. Some people don't get it so badly but that's often because either they're dealing with similar situations frequently or they're freakin' bad-***. For the rest of us mere mortals and average civilians, our brushes with real violence tend to be limited, so when we are confronted with it, we lose a bit of control. It's not like in hollywoodland where everyone's calm, collected and capable while bullets whizz by. In the real world, I'd rather not have people unprepared for that stress equipped with deadly weapons that require some accuracy.

You guys are making the mistake of thinking that the concealed carry course is the only course that most CCW go through. Most of those who actually carry (which is a minority of those who have their CCW) are either former LEO, mil, or are extensively trained. People who do not fit into those three groups are likely to leave their piece at home over 90% of the time.

A person who is properly trained, will only show their weapon to fire shots during an active shooter scenario. They're not going to pull out their pistol as soon as they hear shots and go running towards the gunfire, they're going to make sure they can get it out quickly and survey the situation.

Maybe what needs to happen is better training and screening? Mandatory off duty carry for LEO would be nice too.

You guys are right in one respect though. There are always those mall ninjas who would go ape**** and only get more people shot. Fortunately, they tend to be confined to their parents basement. The reason there are so few responders to active shooters is lots of CCW leave their weapon at home, and those that do carry only go to the supermarket, the gun club, and the backwoods.

When I finally get my permit, any school that thinks I won't carry on their campus can **** off.

I think Rogue Leader said it, Trolley Square had "no concealed carry" signs posted all around. Good thing Officer Hammond ignored them eh?

Yes, well, how many former LEO, etc are going to be randomly walking around a college campus with their gun?

Again, you're just presenting a hypothetical outcome that isn't reflected by real life examples. Just because police train more intensively, and for more situations, doesn't mean that a citizen with a conceal carry is going to run amok.

I want to know how you get off acting like some sort of expert on shootings. You've never been in one. We are, at best, arguing over hypothetical versions of situations that we have no experience in. So unless you happen to be a member of SWAT or are an expert on forensics, kindly shut up or get off the high horse.

The only difference between your opinion and mine is that mine has lots of real world support and yours has very little. I grant that is possible for someone to panic and inadvertently kill a bystander, but that still leaves a lot less people dead than if everyone is unarmed. Ideally we have a squad of guards with M-16s in every room, but that's not feasible. In realty, first response is probably going to be some fat security guard who isn't going to handle the situation much better than the average guy with a conceal carry.

Not to mention that the rent-a-cop will probably be armed with a nightstick and mace.

...I don't want to go to your school.

Only in America would the response to a school shooting be: we need to give more people (students) guns!

Not to mention that this hypothetical situation that everyone is worried about is terribly unlikely to happen anyway. If someone is going to pull a concealed carry on a shooter, one of two things are going to happen.

Ideally, the guy with the concealed carry is going to pull his gun, shoot the guy, and thats going to pretty much be the end of it.

Or, the shooter is going to somehow be able to get the guy with his concealed weapon first, and he continues on shooting people.

So we're left with pretty much no time for other concealed carry holders to jump in and start this mass battle that you all seem so worried about. The odds of this actually happening are incredibly long.