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☖ Forums → Discussion Forum → Guns on Campus
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Guns on Campus
2008-02-26, 4:30 PM #41
Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet:
...kindly shut up or get off the high horse.


You tend to have conservative views so no matter how politely or well stated your post may or may not be, it is always valid to criticize you and tell you to stop posting.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2008-02-26, 4:32 PM #42
I can see how it sounds plausible in theory if you've never been in that situation, but I can't think of a single incident of that happening, ever. And conceal carry is legal in most public places in most states, so it's not like conceal carry safety isn't being tested even as we speak.

Originally posted by Wookie06:
You tend to have conservative views so no matter how politely or well stated your post may or may not be, it is always valid to criticize you and tell you to stop posting.



I can communicate respectfully with people no matter what their view point, but when they go off half cocked after I've taken the trouble to understand their position and acknowledge the parts that I think could plausible, that pisses me off.
2008-02-26, 4:52 PM #43
Is it ironic for Wookie to be calling Obi conservative? I really can't remember.
2008-02-26, 4:55 PM #44
That first hypothetical aside, it's damned hard for me to believe that the accident rate among college students -- many of whom live in very close quarters with dozens or hundreds of other students and/or drink excessively on a fairly regular basis -- is going to be any lower than it is in the general population. If you have enough student gun-owners on campus to have a good chance at stopping school shootings, you're going to have bigger problems than school shootings.
If you think the waiters are rude, you should see the manager.
2008-02-26, 5:28 PM #45
Originally posted by Vincent Valentine:
Is it ironic for Wookie to be calling Obi conservative? I really can't remember.


What can't you remember, the definition of ironic?

No, it is not ironic.

If a gay guy called you gay, would that be ironic?
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2008-02-26, 5:28 PM #46
Only if he called him a *** (rhymes with rag).
2008-02-26, 6:13 PM #47
Originally posted by Avenger:
Yes, well, how many former LEO, etc are going to be randomly walking around a college campus with their gun?


Well, at least around here, there are lots of public community events at schools. And I know a lot of people go to college as soon as they get out of the military.

Originally posted by Michael MacFarlane:
That first hypothetical aside, it's damned hard for me to believe that the accident rate among college students -- many of whom live in very close quarters with dozens or hundreds of other students and/or drink excessively on a fairly regular basis -- is going to be any lower than it is in the general population. If you have enough student gun-owners on campus to have a good chance at stopping school shootings, you're going to have bigger problems than school shootings.


It's one thing to ban firearms or ammunition in dorms. It's another thing altogether to ban concealed carry on campus altogether. They are NOT the same thing. The idea that people want college students to have pistols laying around crowded dorms is Brady campaign propaganda.

Also, the idea that police train more than most people who carry is laughable at best. Police officers spend more time with paperwork and legal classes than at the range. That's how it is. Lots of concealed carry types shoot multiple times weekly on the range. In larger metro areas there is often more time spent at the range, but in most places it's simply a once a year qualification. Of course most police officers will never fire a shot, so...
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2008-02-26, 7:08 PM #48
Originally posted by Spook:
Police officers spend more time with paperwork and legal classes than at the range.


And this is the reason you hear about a dozen officers emptying several mags of ammo in a shootout and not hitting their target at 5 yards. People really think they're better off letting the average LEO take the time to get there and take a shot instead of someone who's already there, shoots regularly, could very well be professionally trained, and has a CC permit?
$do || ! $do ; try
try: command not found
Ye Olde Galactic Empire Mission Editor (X-wing, TIE, XvT/BoP, XWA)
2008-02-26, 8:12 PM #49
Yeah, most CC guys spend stupid amounts of time at the range practicing. I'd trust my life to a give CC license over the average security guard any day of the week. (Or police officer, depending on the officer, where he was and what he did.)
2008-02-26, 9:59 PM #50
Originally posted by Spook:
Also, the idea that police train more than most people who carry is laughable at best. Police officers spend more time with paperwork and legal classes than at the range. That's how it is. Lots of concealed carry types shoot multiple times weekly on the range. In larger metro areas there is often more time spent at the range, but in most places it's simply a once a year qualification. Of course most police officers will never fire a shot, so...


If that's the case, then officers should train more with their weapon. Campus police should all be trained more regularly for the situations they will deal with on campus. There are many more feasible solutions than letting the public get involved. We're talking about a college campus that is populated by a vast majority of people who are 18-22. Personally, I wouldn't feel any safer with a bunch of college kids armed on campus. It would cause more problems than it would solve.
Pissed Off?
2008-02-26, 10:03 PM #51
I doubt allowing the few people that go through the process to obtain a concealed carry permit would lead to a bunch of college kids carrying guns on campus. At least not anymore than who already do illegally.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2008-02-26, 11:39 PM #52
Originally posted by Avenger:
There are many more feasible solutions than letting the public get involved.


God forbid the public get involved! The public can't be trusted! Better to let the PROPER AUTHORITIES handle it. We should probably pay more taxes to allow for more officers and more training for these specific events, and pay them to have a dense presence within high risk areas like schools, just in case! Then maybe there'd be a CHANCE that something like a school shooting could be contained.

Or we could just let trained people with legally obtained guns and licenses carry concealed weapons, have a similar (small) chance of limiting the damage of a school shooting incident, at no charge to anyone. Let them pay money to accept the responsibility of being armed, and to take responsibility for the safety of themselves.

No, that's a terrible idea.
Warhead[97]
2008-02-26, 11:41 PM #53
Originally posted by Avenger:
If that's the case, then officers should train more with their weapon. Campus police should all be trained more regularly for the situations they will deal with on campus. There are many more feasible solutions than letting the public get involved. We're talking about a college campus that is populated by a vast majority of people who are 18-22. Personally, I wouldn't feel any safer with a bunch of college kids armed on campus. It would cause more problems than it would solve.


Do you not understand that people, students included, already carry on many campuses and nothing bad has come of it?

And yeah, all that stuff would be nice, but police departments are not concerned about active shooters. They are concerned about next years budget. Make no mistake, the police force is not there to protect and serve. OF course you are going to have good to go officers but the system only manages to **** the good guys.

People who carry are outside that system and able to do things others cannot. Of course everyone is scared of this "vigilantism" but I'm not saying to leave it unchecked. Noboody is saying they want anyone to be able to carry anything around. All they want is for those people who are qualified to not be under stupid restrictions.

I mean, you guys know that a no CC sign means that off duty LEO cant carry as well, right?
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2008-02-26, 11:58 PM #54
Originally posted by Avenger:
We're talking about a college campus that is populated by a vast majority of people who are 18-22. Personally, I wouldn't feel any safer with a bunch of college kids armed on campus. It would cause more problems than it would solve.


By the way, it costs money to get a concealed carry license, a gun, necessary equipment, and training. Also time. It's not like people would say "oh I can do this now!", go to walmart, buy a pistol, sign a paper, and walk into a school.

Oklahoma:
class: $60
Smith and Wesson pistol (gun show, very cheap): $300
holster: $50
ammunition for class and carry: $80
application fee: $100
fingerprinting fee: $25

So as a very low estimate: Let's say $615 to carry a concealed pistol. That's with a cheap gun, if you buy one from a store you're probably looking at a few hundred more.

Not exactly something people will be doing on a whim.
Warhead[97]
2008-02-27, 4:36 AM #55
Yeah, but their irresponsible parents may pay for all those costs and send them to school with it.

For a large portion of America, owning a gun is a symbol of manhood or adulthood, it's a badge of honor, not a tool for protection. Using this in a situation is proving your worth to your own manhood and honor to your family. In a situation like this, it could override any common sense one has.
"If you watch television news, you will know less about the world than if you just drink gin straight out of the bottle."
--Garrison Keillor
2008-02-27, 7:28 AM #56
Except conceal carry is legal everywhere else and it doesn't. Remember, you have to be 21 to have a conceal carry licence. They don't hand them out to 18 year olds. The only people who would actually be doing this are people who already going to use conceal carry else where.
2008-02-27, 10:40 AM #57
Originally posted by fishstickz:
Yeah, but their irresponsible parents may pay for all those costs and send them to school with it.

For a large portion of America, owning a gun is a symbol of manhood or adulthood, it's a badge of honor, not a tool for protection. Using this in a situation is proving your worth to your own manhood and honor to your family. In a situation like this, it could override any common sense one has.


And yet, everywhere that allows concealed carry, this doesn't seem to ever happen that I've been able to find.. How strange.
Life is beautiful.
2008-02-27, 10:49 AM #58
fishstickz, I think you're confusing America with feudal japan again. Where did you get that idea?
Warhead[97]
2008-02-27, 12:54 PM #59
Originally posted by fishstickz:
Yeah, but their irresponsible parents may pay for all those costs and send them to school with it.

For a large portion of America, owning a gun is a symbol of manhood or adulthood, it's a badge of honor, not a tool for protection. Using this in a situation is proving your worth to your own manhood and honor to your family. In a situation like this, it could override any common sense one has.


Cut down on the anime.

I can't imagine where you got these ideas. Samurai Champloo?
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2008-02-27, 1:02 PM #60
Are you suggesting people don't think guns are "manly"? There was a kid living on campus last year who had 2 AR-15s and some other Assault rifle.

Now rochester isnt exactly a "safe" city, but its nowhere near the point where youd need to have 3 Assault rifles to feel safe.

Im not saying everyone buys guns to be manly, but it's not like it doesnt happen
[01:52] <~Nikumubeki> Because it's MBEGGAR BEGS LIKE A BEGONI.
2008-02-27, 1:04 PM #61
[http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/garosaon/emot-burger.gif] [http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v215/garosaon/emot-burger.gif]

Oh, America!
Star Wars: TODOA | DXN - Deus Ex: Nihilum
2008-02-27, 1:08 PM #62
Originally posted by mb:
Are you suggesting people don't think guns are "manly"? There was a kid living on campus last year who had 2 AR-15s and some other Assault rifle.

Now rochester isnt exactly a "safe" city, but its nowhere near the point where youd need to have 3 Assault rifles to feel safe.

Im not saying everyone buys guns to be manly, but it's not like it doesnt happen


I didn't say that.

However, there aren't a lot of Americans who are going to fight to the death to protect the honor of their ancestors.

I only know one person who recites the four virtues of a Samurai day and night, and the dude shaves his forehead and wears a top knot. It's not like Bushido is a traditional American value.
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2008-02-27, 1:08 PM #63
Why are you guys assuming that people own guns for such weird reasons? It's not some honor-bound rite of passage into manhood, and if someone buys 2 AR-15s it's not because they feel it's necessary to be safe. They're ****ing fun. There's no hidden motive. Why do I drive a Jeep instead of a focus? Why do some people drive sports cars instead of dodge neons? Because they're FUN. Not because I actually think that I will need to go offroading someday and it will save my life, or because some guy thinks that he really will someday need to go 150mph to get away from someone chasing him. IT'S FOR FUN.

Quit assigning some mythical status to guns. They're just things. They have switches that you pull that make things in front of them blow up. You should be really careful so you don't blow something up you're not supposed to. The end.
Warhead[97]
2008-02-27, 1:16 PM #64
Originally posted by BobTheMasher:
By the way, it costs money to get a concealed carry license, a gun, necessary equipment, and training. Also time. It's not like people would say "oh I can do this now!", go to walmart, buy a pistol, sign a paper, and walk into a school.

Oklahoma:
class: $60
Smith and Wesson pistol (gun show, very cheap): $300
holster: $50
ammunition for class and carry: $80
application fee: $100
fingerprinting fee: $25

So as a very low estimate: Let's say $615 to carry a concealed pistol. That's with a cheap gun, if you buy one from a store you're probably looking at a few hundred more.

Not exactly something people will be doing on a whim.



Costs more than that, I'm pretty sure you're paying that fingerprinting fee twice because they're sending your prints to the FBI and your local police station.

I think the FBI also requires a headshot now too.
2008-02-27, 1:17 PM #65
Originally posted by BobTheMasher:
Why are you guys assuming that people own guns for such weird reasons? It's not some honor-bound rite of passage into manhood, and if someone buys 2 AR-15s it's not because they feel it's necessary to be safe. They're ****ing fun. There's no hidden motive.


Okay but... Its an illegal weapon in this state AND the state he was from. He kept the ammo under his passenger seat in his car. Then theres the fact that he had it in his dorm room.

Ok sure lets assume he wasnt bat**** insane, logic would tell you to NOT keep that gun in your dorm room. You know. Cause its not legal.


[edit ] I realize this isnt exactly a concealable weapon, but it makes me question what people might carry if they could [/edit]
[01:52] <~Nikumubeki> Because it's MBEGGAR BEGS LIKE A BEGONI.
2008-02-27, 1:27 PM #66
The monthly 'post yer guns!' threads are fairly synonymous with 'post yer penis size!'. We don't have enough of those.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2008-02-27, 1:52 PM #67
Originally posted by mb:
Okay but... Its an illegal weapon in this state AND the state he was from. He kept the ammo under his passenger seat in his car. Then theres the fact that he had it in his dorm room.

Ok sure lets assume he wasnt bat**** insane, logic would tell you to NOT keep that gun in your dorm room. You know. Cause its not legal.


[edit ] I realize this isnt exactly a concealable weapon, but it makes me question what people might carry if they could [/edit]


Yeah okay, you didn't say it was illegal. That still has no bearing on the situation. He is breaking the law.

What do you mean question what they would carry if they could? People can and do. You can't exactly conceal a submachine gun on your person, and someone like myself can't even hide a 1911 on their body without wearing a circus tent.

What, do you think people are going to be toting mk19s and javelins?
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2008-02-27, 2:19 PM #68
Originally posted by Spook:
What, do you think people are going to be toting mk19s and javelins?


This would cut down on my frustration during rush hour traffic.
Life is beautiful.
2008-02-27, 2:23 PM #69
Sounds like you have a Bad Habit.

*snicker*
2008-02-27, 2:31 PM #70
Originally posted by Rogue Leader:
This would cut down on my frustration during rush hour traffic.


I never use I-15 during the day. Or Redwood.
Epstein didn't kill himself.
2008-02-27, 2:56 PM #71
Im not going to pretend I know whats illegal when it comes to handguns, but I wouldnt exactly feel comfortable if i happened to know that the kid next to me had a concealed weapon like a Desert Eagle or something.

Again I dontk now the laws or anything, Im just stating my own opinion.
[01:52] <~Nikumubeki> Because it's MBEGGAR BEGS LIKE A BEGONI.
2008-02-27, 3:34 PM #72
I believe in OK you can't conceal anything larger than .45 caliber. But here's the thing: you wouldn't KNOW he had a gun. The only time you'd know anyone had a gun was if something happened. That's why it's a concealed carry license, not open carry.

But help me understand why you feel that way. Why won't you be uncomfortable with that? What are you afraid of? I mean...are you afraid that people around you will just punch you or stab you out of nowhere, too?
Warhead[97]
2008-02-27, 4:06 PM #73
Guns r bad.
Think of the children!
2008-02-27, 6:52 PM #74
http://www.newsobserver.com//news/story/968432.html

This is why I'd be afraid to have people carrying concealed weapons.

Granted, the guy was dumb, but people on college campuses do stupid things all the time.
"If you watch television news, you will know less about the world than if you just drink gin straight out of the bottle."
--Garrison Keillor
2008-02-27, 6:54 PM #75
Because a University was dumb enough to hold a mock exercise during an actual class without properly notifying the teacher? That makes no sense.
Life is beautiful.
2008-02-27, 7:00 PM #76
Yeah, can you explain what you mean there? Not only is that a really stupid drill to do, especially without proper notification, but the guy had a red rubber gun...which is basically universally recognized as a training device.
Warhead[97]
2008-02-27, 7:29 PM #77
Someone on campus does something dumb, a prank, a test, a game of assassins, whatever. Lots of dumb things happen on campus.

Kid with a conceal permit thinks its real, freaks out, whatever. Takes him out. The prank, joke, whatever just turned into a body.

Dumb things happen on campuses, adding guns to the equation removes the room for error.

Granted, it's a dumb example of a dumb person doing a dumb thing, but college is a dumb place, with dumb people that do dumb things.
"If you watch television news, you will know less about the world than if you just drink gin straight out of the bottle."
--Garrison Keillor
2008-02-27, 7:33 PM #78
The only thing that is going to cause someone to pull a gun is another gun getting pulled. A red rubber gun or a clear water pistol or airsoft gun is probably not going to be considered dangerous or life threatening by anyone.

Anyone who pulls a realistic looking gun is an idiot. Especially if guns on campus were legalized. How stupid do you have to be? Don't do it. Just don't ****ing do it, moron, because you could get shot. Duh. Same reason you don't jerk around and reach under your seat when a cop pulls you over or pull an airsoft gun out in a police station.
Warhead[97]
2008-02-27, 8:08 PM #79
Originally posted by fishstickz:
Someone on campus does something dumb, a prank, a test, a game of assassins, whatever. Lots of dumb things happen on campus.

Kid with a conceal permit thinks its real, freaks out, whatever. Takes him out. The prank, joke, whatever just turned into a body.

Dumb things happen on campuses, adding guns to the equation removes the room for error.

Granted, it's a dumb example of a dumb person doing a dumb thing, but college is a dumb place, with dumb people that do dumb things.


Yeah, except with conceal carry legal, that would go from being obnoxious dumb, to antagonizing a mother bear dumb. If an idiot like that has to die so one guy can't waltz on to campus on go on a thirty person killing spree, that's just too damn bad. It's not fair to jeopardize the lives of responsible people in order to protect suicidal morons.

Originally posted by mb:
Im not going to pretend I know whats illegal when it comes to handguns, but I wouldnt exactly feel comfortable if i happened to know that the kid next to me had a concealed weapon like a Desert Eagle or something.

Again I dontk now the laws or anything, Im just stating my own opinion.


Chances are, that happens almost any time you go into a public place.
2008-02-27, 8:52 PM #80
Originally posted by fishstickz:
Someone on campus does something dumb, a prank, a test, a game of assassins, whatever. Lots of dumb things happen on campus.

Kid with a conceal permit thinks its real, freaks out, whatever. Takes him out. The prank, joke, whatever just turned into a body.

Dumb things happen on campuses, adding guns to the equation removes the room for error.

Granted, it's a dumb example of a dumb person doing a dumb thing, but college is a dumb place, with dumb people that do dumb things.


I don't know what campus you go to, but pretty much any campus I've ever been to or heard of expels students for that kind of activity, so it doesn't really happen.

How about instead of providing hypothetical situations of things that might happen, but strangely haven't yet, we get some actual proof that these are indeed happening. There are colleges that already allow concealed carry (in the state of Utah for one), provide some examples. If all your going to do is throw out these possible situations that aren't actually happening, then I'm not going to be convinced of your position.
Life is beautiful.
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