Massassi Forums Logo

This is the static archive of the Massassi Forums. The forums are closed indefinitely. Thanks for all the memories!

You can also download Super Old Archived Message Boards from when Massassi first started.

"View" counts are as of the day the forums were archived, and will no longer increase.

☖ Forums → Discussion Forum → Thread about game controllers.
123
Thread about game controllers.
2008-06-09, 1:02 PM #41
Originally posted by Darkjedibob:
Both analog sticks being on the same side is stupid, how the hell are you supposed to move/turn/strafe/look at the same time?


right analog = thumb
XYAB = Pointer
left analog = middle finger
triggers = Ring
D-pad = pinky

triggers for Halo would suck
Holy soap opera Batman. - FGR
DARWIN WILL PREVENT THE DOWNFALL OF OUR RACE. - Rob
Free Jin!
2008-06-09, 2:12 PM #42
Quote:
I tried playing Halo 3 on the XBox 360 for the first time ever this weekend. I can't use a controller for an FPS games it just doesn't work. Aiming is plainly horrible. It's not an issue with the controller itself. I could play Pro Evo and Project Gotham Racing fairly well, but trying to aim on an FPS game just feels so clumsy and awkward compared to keyboard/mouse.
Get better.

Quote:
(CoD4, the "hold breath" function while sniping is pushing down the same stick that controls movement.. meaning unless I'm some how pushing down perfectly, which never happens, I'm moving slightly in some direction, which pretty much negates the hold breath function.)

Get better.
2008-06-09, 2:16 PM #43
atari joystick < NES < Wiimote < SNES < N64 < Xbox OG < PS2 = DC < PS3 < GC << Xbox Controller S < Xbox 360

Seriously, the 360 is ergonomic and wonderful. I have huge hands though and as such I pretty much cannot use a PS2 controller because it is simply too g-damn small. The GC controller has its tails practically parallel which hurts your wrists after awhile, but at least you can hold onto it. In my opinion the Xbox controller S is an amazing controller. I hacked one apart to make it work with my PC. Then Microsoft released the 360 controller and I never looked back. What an amazing gamepad.

I put the wiimote at the bottom because it is garbage. The motion sensing is laggy, there's like 2 buttons on it, and it's completely unergonomic. It's truly god awful. You have to buy a separate addon just to make it work in most games. That controller is a good idea with absolutely terrible implementation.

For reference, I own the following consoles: SNES, PS2, GC, DC, PS1, N64, Wii, Xbox 360
New! Fun removed by Vinny :[
2008-06-09, 2:16 PM #44
Yeah. It's called push the stick straight down.
Pissed Off?
2008-06-09, 2:36 PM #45
You can change the layout controls in COD4.
2008-06-10, 7:32 PM #46
My thoughts on some of game controllers since 1985:

  • NES: Just looking at it makes it obvious what’s wrong with it. Moving on…
  • Sega Genesis: Good design IMO. It fits in your hands nicely and the layout of the buttons works just right. Even the start button is placed in a good location rather than smack dab in the middle of the pad.
  • SNES: Good design although a bit small in the hands. The introduction of the shoulder buttons was a nice touch. Too bad most of the street fighting games that were popular at the time of the SNES didn’t quite feel right with the SNES because of the button layout. The Sega Genesis’ six button controller was better for those games
  • N64: Terrible design. I personally thought it was dumb that they would place the analog stick in the middle of the controller. Because most games used the analog over the d-pad, the way you would hold the controller made it awkward because the entire left side of the controller is ignored and hard to reach over to. The left shoulder button was impossible to reach if you’re holding the controller in the middle. Most games like Star Fox and Legend of Zelda: OoT would favor the Z and R button setup rather than L and R because the L button was like 15 miles away from your left hand.
  • Playstation 1/2/3: Ok if not a little small. The design was way too derivative of the SNES (that’s because Sony intended the PSX to be a SNES CD console before Nintendo gave them the finger). The introduction of the analog sticks was nice though. However, because of how you would play some games using only one analog stick, the position of your thumbs can become a bit awkward.
  • Xbox/Xbox 360: Good design, the smaller one and the 360 that is. I have never used the original one that was apparently huge so I can’t comment on that. The placement of the analog sticks (which, btw, is not much different than the controllers Sega used for the Saturn analog version and the Dreamcast) may look odd but that depends on the game you’re playing. If you’re playing a game that only uses the left analog stick, the placement of your thumbs is symmetrically since the right thumb would be on the face buttons. However, if you’re playing a game like Halo, the placement of your thumbs would look awkward since one side is up while the other is across.
The cake is a lie... THE CAKE IS A LIE!!!!!
2008-06-10, 7:40 PM #47
Originally posted by JM:
Get better.


Get better.


You could "get better" using the original NES controller. That's not the point.
2008-06-10, 10:55 PM #48
Actually, it is. The more you uses something like a controller, the more you get used to using the thing.
Pissed Off?
2008-06-10, 11:43 PM #49
You can get use to driving a car with square-shaped tires but it won't make them good tires.
SnailIracing:n(500tpostshpereline)pants
-----------------------------@%
2008-06-10, 11:52 PM #50
this comic is relevant to this thread


question, i spent a while searching around for the comic where they are holding versions of the original xbox controllers that are enlarged, anyone know what that one is hidden under?
Attachment: 19511/20020325h.gif (60,607 bytes)
Holy soap opera Batman. - FGR
DARWIN WILL PREVENT THE DOWNFALL OF OUR RACE. - Rob
Free Jin!
2008-06-11, 12:02 AM #51
Originally posted by ECHOMAN:
You can get use to driving a car with square-shaped tires but it won't make them good tires.


It's more like getting used to driving a different car where the gear shift is in a slightly different spot, the stereo controls are different and the pedals have different shapes. It may be awkward at first, but you get used to it.
Pissed Off?
2008-06-11, 3:06 AM #52
I can't beleive how many people are saying that the playstation controllers are too small
Have you guys got gigantic hands or something? I mean geez, I'm told I have big hands and I think the playstation controller is perfect.
You can't judge a book by it's file size
2008-06-11, 4:36 AM #53
I play FPS games as well with a gamepad as I do with a mouse and keyboard. And I'm not bad at FPS games. Gamepads seem to require more manual dexterity, since precise aiming requires rapid small movements close to the dead zone.

There are a number of technical arguments in favor of and against either of them, but they basically amount to this: the control stick is theoretically more precise, while the mouse is theoretically more accurate. Which do you prefer?


Originally posted by ECHOMAN:
You can get use to driving a car with square-shaped tires but it won't make them good tires.


What? That's not a good analogy at all.
2008-06-11, 6:27 AM #54
Originally posted by Deadman:
I can't beleive how many people are saying that the playstation controllers are too small
Have you guys got gigantic hands or something? I mean geez, I'm told I have big hands and I think the playstation controller is perfect.


I have pretty small hands and I still hate how there's nothing to hold on to.
2008-06-11, 8:20 AM #55
My favorite is the Xbox controller S. I haven't used a 360 controller enough to judge, so it may be better. Playstation controllers are too small and don't feel very strong.

I liked the N64 controller and the Dreamcast controller for their generations.

The Genesis controller was my favorite old-school controller. I rocked playing SF2, even though you had to press start to switch between kicks and punches.
Naked Feet are Happy Feet
:omgkroko:
2008-06-11, 8:28 AM #56
Originally posted by Vegiemaster:
My favorite is the Xbox controller S. I haven't used a 360 controller enough to judge, so it may be better. Playstation controllers are too small and don't feel very strong.

I liked the N64 controller and the Dreamcast controller for their generations.

The Genesis controller was my favorite old-school controller. I rocked playing SF2, even though you had to press start to switch between kicks and punches.

The Controller S was my favorite until I got a 360. The only real difference is the stupid white and black buttons have been turned into much more convenient shoulder buttons. The Guide button was also added, but that isn't really something that effects gameplay (unless you manage to hit it by accident).

For the people that were ragging on the one handed controllers that were posted, they're meant for amputees. It's better than nothing.
2008-06-11, 1:09 PM #57
Originally posted by Vegiemaster:
My favorite is the Xbox controller S. I haven't used a 360 controller enough to judge, so it may be better. Playstation controllers are too small and don't feel very strong.

I liked the N64 controller and the Dreamcast controller for their generations.

The Genesis controller was my favorite old-school controller. I rocked playing SF2, even though you had to press start to switch between kicks and punches.


If you hit two buttons at once you'd get another one of the buttons only on the six button gamepad.
2008-06-11, 1:33 PM #58
Originally posted by Deadman:
I can't beleive how many people are saying that the playstation controllers are too small
Have you guys got gigantic hands or something? I mean geez, I'm told I have big hands and I think the playstation controller is perfect.


I have huge hands and ditto.
nope.
2008-06-11, 2:23 PM #59
I just saw the original Xbox controller and game stop earlier today and damn... those things are huge! Its a good thing I only used the smaller xbox controller because I have rather small hands.
The cake is a lie... THE CAKE IS A LIE!!!!!
2008-06-11, 2:56 PM #60
Originally posted by genk:
this comic is relevant to this thread


question, i spent a while searching around for the comic where they are holding versions of the original xbox controllers that are enlarged, anyone know what that one is hidden under?


It's amazing how much the art on Penny-Arcade has gotten suckier over the years.

Like it started out horrible, got pretty decent, then got boring and lame.
2008-06-11, 4:16 PM #61
I haven't used the 360 so I can't comment on it, but if it's anything lke the Sidewinder Gamepad then the D-pad is horrible. It's impossible to do fireball motions with that thing, much less crouch effeciently. Otherwise, I like the PS3/2/1 controller, Sega Saturn, and Super NES. The GameCube was good overall, but it didn't fare too well for 2D style games I thought.
2008-06-11, 4:33 PM #62
The N64 controller design made abso-****ing-lutely no sense but I loved it to death ... and, being that it was my first and pretty much only often-used controller until Gamecube came out (I disliked the PSX), it is what I am most comfortable with.

I'm happy that they made the GCN controller such that the trigger setup *almost* felt like the R-Z setup of the N64, making the transition to games like Melee from Smash Bros. much less painful.

I've only used a 360 controller a few times but it feels pretty natural.

The PSX/2 controllers I've only really used to play Tony Hawk. The diamond configuration was pretty good for that.

I don't think I've ever played a PS3 game. Or if I did, I forgot about it.
一个大西瓜
2008-06-11, 5:01 PM #63
[http://www.pclaunches.com/entry_images/1007/04/belkin_n52te-1-thumb.jpg]
I use this for my PC gaming.
Back again
2008-06-11, 6:44 PM #64
That looks really bad...
You can't judge a book by it's file size
2008-06-11, 7:38 PM #65
I got one of those (maybe the older model) for a few dollars after a rebate, it's almost worthless. The buttons are mushy and difficult to press at anything but the perfect angle.

Also, the DC controller is the best I have ever used.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2008-06-11, 7:40 PM #66
Originally posted by Jon`C:
the control stick is theoretically more precise, while the mouse is theoretically more accurate. Which do you prefer?

uh
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2008-06-11, 7:57 PM #67
The 360 controller excels at shooters and sports. But I dont even want to consider playing street fighter on that thing. Their D-pad SUCKS!
\(='_'=)/
2008-06-11, 8:15 PM #68
Originally posted by Jon`C:
I play FPS games as well with a gamepad as I do with a mouse and keyboard. And I'm not bad at FPS games. Gamepads seem to require more manual dexterity, since precise aiming requires rapid small movements close to the dead zone.

There are a number of technical arguments in favor of and against either of them, but they basically amount to this: the control stick is theoretically more precise, while the mouse is theoretically more accurate. Which do you prefer?




What? That's not a good analogy at all.


I don't see how a control stick could ever really compare to a mouse. You do not have free range of movement speed and acceleration. You do not have fine control (especially when dealing with fidgety dead zones). Plus, being forced to take my thumb off the jump button/melee button/reload button to turn myself around? Horribly limiting.
2008-06-11, 8:19 PM #69
But the thing with consoles everybody has those same limitations so it really comes down to who can do it better. I prefer mouse/keyboard for FPS but usually when it comes to CS:S I get my *** kicked. When I play Cod4 I usually do well.
"Nulla tenaci invia est via"
2008-06-11, 8:19 PM #70
Originally posted by Emon:
uh


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision
2008-06-11, 8:37 PM #71
Originally posted by Cool Matty:
I don't see how a control stick could ever really compare to a mouse. You do not have free range of movement speed and acceleration. You do not have fine control (especially when dealing with fidgety dead zones). Plus, being forced to take my thumb off the jump button/melee button/reload button to turn myself around? Horribly limiting.


There are legitimate complaints, but generally if a game is designed to be played with a gamepad those factors are already taken into account.

Modern games do the whole analog stick thing much better too. It really comes down to histrionics, clamping and an appropriate acceleration curve. You can also trivially interpolate between samples to obtain a value closer to what the player actually wanted than the values that you read directly off of the controller, which makes the controls feel more responsive and natural even though they are less accurate.

I keep getting about halfway through writing a long post describing why mouse input in Windows is in a pathetic state and thinking better of it, so I'll just stick to my original comment that it comes down to a choice between precision and accuracy.
2008-06-11, 9:32 PM #72
You can have all the prediction/interpolation/fine-tuned acceleration you want, you still have issues placing accurate shots at a rapid pace in a defined area (such as the head). It's not hard to find yourself always trying to keep your vertical movement to a minimum in order to keep your gun at "head level". With a mouse that's far less of a worry.

That's not to say it isn't fine for some situations. I prefer the stick to a mouse for racing games and such. The precision is far more useful there. But as far as it working well for FPSes? I just don't see it.
2008-06-11, 9:34 PM #73
Originally posted by Cool Matty:
I prefer the stick


Lolz
2008-06-11, 10:24 PM #74
Originally posted by Cool Matty:
You can have all the prediction/interpolation/fine-tuned acceleration you want, you still have issues placing accurate shots at a rapid pace in a defined area (such as the head). It's not hard to find yourself always trying to keep your vertical movement to a minimum in order to keep your gun at "head level". With a mouse that's far less of a worry.
Fortunately I do not have this problem. In my experience the primary limiting characteristics are the facts that turn speeds have a fixed upper limit, and that console FPSes tend to have low resolutions and ridiculous auto-aim systems. I've recently played through HL2 on a PC with a 360 controller and I certainly did not suffer for lack of a mouse.

Being able to make subtle and rapid alterations to your aim with a gamepad definitely requires more training but it's very possible. I can also guarantee to you that the delta values for a control stick are much higher-resolution than the delta values a game can pull down off of a mouse (on the order of 64 times) so there are zero technical reasons a control stick would make it harder to aim. I really hate to reiterate something JM said, but get better?
2008-06-12, 3:25 AM #75
You say you did not suffer from lack of mouse... maybe you need to get better with the mouse? =p
You can't judge a book by it's file size
2008-06-12, 5:51 AM #76
People who ***** about console shooters just have bad aim.

And, of course, a stick is worlds better for navigation. With the keyboard I can go forward, or I can go sideways. Maybe I can do diagonal, unless I'm holding down too many keys or the keyboard's mechanism prevents it from detecting both those keys at once, but I can only go at that 45 degree angle. And I only go one speed. With a stick, speed is a function of how far I press it, and I can go any damn angle I want.

Also I don't have to keep lifting it up and putting it back down in the center of the mousepad.
2008-06-12, 9:22 AM #77
Originally posted by Jon`C:
Fortunately I do not have this problem. In my experience the primary limiting characteristics are the facts that turn speeds have a fixed upper limit, and that console FPSes tend to have low resolutions and ridiculous auto-aim systems. I've recently played through HL2 on a PC with a 360 controller and I certainly did not suffer for lack of a mouse.


You have to have the problems I listed unless you have 3 thumbs. You can't press any of the front buttons and hit the right analog stick at the same time. And of course the deadzones are a crapshoot, making finite small movements very hard to pull off.

It comes down to this. There are moves and turns and such that you simply cannot preform on a gamepad in an FPS. Period. The opposite is not true for the mouse. I cannot think of a single limitation of the mouse that doesn't apply to the control stick.

Quote:
Being able to make subtle and rapid alterations to your aim with a gamepad definitely requires more training but it's very possible. I can also guarantee to you that the delta values for a control stick are much higher-resolution than the delta values a game can pull down off of a mouse (on the order of 64 times) so there are zero technical reasons a control stick would make it harder to aim. I really hate to reiterate something JM said, but get better?


Who cares what sort of resolution it has when you're dealing with unpredictable deadzones, limited range, and disruptive placement. You're providing an argument which has been proven to be circumstancial at best over decades of use. A lower resolution on the mouse is not enough to hinder it compared to a control stick.

I really hate to counter what you said, but get better?
2008-06-12, 10:09 AM #78
360 controllers are heavy. When I play with a chatpad on it then switch to a PS3 controller, man.
2008-06-12, 1:16 PM #79
Cool Matty, but we are better. I can kill you with a mouse. AND I can kill you with a gamepad.

And the dead zone on the 360 controller's analog sticks is not 'unpredictable'. You just don't have the fine muscle control needed to overcome it because you're not used to a pressure-sensitive device.

As for the other common argument, turn speed - that's a function of the game. If you can't play the game within the rules of the game world, don't play the game.
2008-06-12, 1:22 PM #80
Originally posted by Cool Matty:
You can't press any of the front buttons and hit the right analog stick at the same time.


I use the side of my index finger for face buttons if my thumb is on the right stick.
123

↑ Up to the top!