That's my point. Unless I'm missing something, the Doom3 engine is just shiny graphics and lighting, while HL2's engine supports loads more of things that can actually change gameplay. HL2 would have more potential. Doom has potential, sure, but you couldn't be as creative with it as you could with Source, simply because it doesn't have as many options.

I mean, I'm sure you could make plenty of awesome maps/mods/what have you, using Doom3's excellent graphics and lighting and whatever else it has. But, with HL2 there's all sorts of things you can do to make your mod truly innovative. Both engines have their advantages, but I honestly believe HL2 will be superior for editting due to it's versatility.

'course, this is all assuming that Doom 3 doesn't have all the cool features that HL2 does. As I've said, I havn't really followed Doom 3 much because it doesn't really interest me, so I honestly don't know.

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Moo.

Doom 3's got a great physics engine--with a bit of modding it could pan out to be up to par with HL2's. And all HL2 has is the physics engine, and of course graphics. It's not like that's a humongous leg up. Also I hear it's going to be a LOT harder to mod for. That's why I said "It depends..."

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And also, with the HL2 physics engine, everything seems too...light...barrels, even empty, are usually heavy, really heavy. You won't knock one over just by walking up to it.

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It's supposed to be a push. You'll likely have to literally push into it with your movement keys to make it move.



Except you don't know that. You're basing it off a fake video made for E3. You're also basing what you know of Doom 3 off screenshots and your fanboy desire that HL2 must "beat" Doom 3. Get the hell over it. Both games are great for modding, stop making up reasons why HL2 is "better" for modding. Especially when you know nothing about either.

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Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.

the Source engine has a lot more going for it than just the physics. (And, while in HL2 things may seem too "light" to you, keep in mind we're talking about editting here. Someone could easily edit the weight/mass/whatever of an object if they wanted to)

The facial animation and lip syncing system. I havn't seen characters express themselves more realistically in any other game. And with the lip syncing, you just feed it a sound file, type in the actual text, and it works. Sounds like something that, while relatively simple, will be extremely useful for people creating singleplayer mods, or maybe even movies using the game engine.

The camera system. I don't know if other engines have been able to do this, so I don't know how new and revolutionary it is, but seeing a real-time camera transmit an image to a video screen in the game world is real nice, and has all sorts of potential.

Displacement mapping, or whatever it is. while I'm not sure of the specifics, I do know that it allows realtime terrain deformation. As in, craters forming when you shoot rockets at the ground. I know some other engines have similar effects, but I don't know about Doom 3.

There's probably more, too. I suggest looking into the link I posted earlier; it has most of the info Valve's released about the game.

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Moo.

If the objects are really too light for you, then that's what modding is for, isn't it?

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I am _ Ace_1 _ , and I approve this message.

I think that the Doom III graphics engine will be the best base for future engines. For example, id could license the Doom engine to another company for another game. That company could make their changes to the source code and add in the extra bells and wistles that the source engine has. The source engine does it's best to empress you with it's flashy shaders and physics, but it's still based on fundamentally outdated BSP technology. Doom III on the other hand, provides a good base -- a fast, efficient, portable (linux, OS X...) and solid technology for others to build on.

Having said that, I do believe that Half Life 2 will probobly be more fun to mess around with and be more accessable to edit due to it's handy "bells and wistles" out of the box.

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Your humble opinion is wrong.

[This message has been edited by Mystic0 (edited August 11, 2004).]

What the hell, dude?

I've been saying the entire time that both engines will have their advantages. I've been saying the entire time that I don't even know what Doom 3 is capable of, because I don't follow it as much as HL2. I'm a fan of HL2, but I'm far from a fanboy. And I'm not basing my information from the "fake videos" from E3, I'm basing it off of what Valve has said about the engine. Since the game isn't released, the only thing anyone can base anything off of is what they tell us (wether it's true or not). I don't want HL2 to "beat" Doom 3, because honestly I don't care. Hell, I'll probably be buying Doom 3 within the next few weeks regardless. But I admit I don't know a lot about it. I've said so in this very thread, and the only responses I've seen are "Doom 3 supports better graphics and lighting."

If you're so mad at me for saying that Doom 3's engine isn't as versatile, why don't you prove me wrong? I'm excited about both games, but I havn't heard anything of what Doom 3's capable of besides just the graphics and lighting (while I've seen a wealth of information suggesting Source's versatility.)

I'm not trying to argue here, at all. I'm just trying to offer what information I have, and hear what other people have to say about the subject. I really don't see why it was necessary to flame me like that.

[Edit]


Thank you. This is, more or less, what I've been trying to say.

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Moo.

[This message has been edited by A_Big_Fat_CoW (edited August 11, 2004).]

As for the Source vs. doom3 engine(I don't know it's name), why can't you put bell's and whistles on Source? These BSP's may be outdated, but at the release of HL2's Source, I'm sure some other things will be considered outdated real fast.

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I am _ Ace_1 _ , and I approve this message.

Yeah I really think the source engine just has way more to offer. Doom 3 has a decent physics engine... But as someone said before it only reacts when things are hit... it doesn't update frame by frame. It's a good game and all that, but I can't really see any other type of game working well with that engine as it is. Unless you want to make a game where you walk around killing a bunch of stuff in dimly lit corridors... I think you're going to have to look somewhere else. But with HL2, you've got vehicles and all that stuff. I imagine we'll see MANY more mods for HL2 based solely on what is readily available. Doom 3 has nice lighting and decent physics. That's it. Other than that it has nothing on HL2. Don't tell me about this "outdated bsp format" bs. If you can design a map in this outdated format, it's going to be just as good as it would be in Doom 3. And doom 3's graphics don't have anything on hl2.

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I figure that one day I'll either be famous, or in prison. But I guess if I'm going to prison, I should probably try to do something that would make me famous anyway.

Ever notice how different artists have different style? one comic may look one way, one may look completley different. But they both look good.

Doom 3's graphics look great. Don't get me wrong. But they are far from realistic.

HL2 just has a realistic feel to the graphics, I don't know what it is exactly. But it just seems more realistic.

Not only that, but Doom 3 will probably pay off more for developers in the long run.

But, Source pays off for fan editors now.
Whats keeping HL alive? A thriving mod community backed by valve.

Sure they've made some mistakes. *COUGHSTEAMCOUGH* But even I have to admit that everything has turned out fine.

One movie can't win all the categories at the academy awards.

Doom 3 and Source are equals. Doom 3 to me atleast seems a bit more specialized, but whatever.


yep.

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"Judging by the name of the author, and the name of the work, I'd guess it's an energy "beam". You know, like in the Japanese cartoons where those guys with big hair fly around, talk philosophy, and shoot fireballs at each other." - Hellequin

Because I'm sick of people swaying so heavily in EITHER direction about what an engine can do. I don't even know how you can compare to a game that's unreleased created by developers that lie about their game left and right.

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Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.

And while you are all bickering, I am already making progress maping in Doom.

Carry on, carry on

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ZGPC

I'm not "swaying heavily" in HL2's direction. I'm simply saying what I know about HL2, and how, according to what information I have on either game, how I think HL2's engine will be more versatile for fan-made modifications. If someone starts giving me some more information on Doom 3's capabilities, I'd definitely consider changing my standing.



For one, then why are you even posting on this thread? The whole point is to debate the editting aspects of Doom 3 vs HL2.

Secondly, How does valve "lie about their game left and right"? There have been misunderstandings, sure. But I haven't seen any evidence of them simply lying to us.

See, I'm sick of people generalizing me (and others) as a "fanboy who wants HL2 to beat Doom 3". But I didn't start flaming you, did I? I'm trying to participate in a civilized discussion here.

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Moo.

No, you're right on that, I went off on you, and I'm sorry.

After the beta was leaked it turned out that the demo video was fake and scripted. Valve later admitted that the AI and such was only what they "envisioned" it to be. I'm trying to find a link.

Edit: The best one I can find at the moment:
http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2004May/bga20040510025070.htm

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Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.

[This message has been edited by Emon (edited August 11, 2004).]

Even if all that is true, the AI is the only thing I believe could be scripted, everything else, like the physics and visual effects, must have been working on it's own. Their physics system was licensed by sombody else, it can't be fake or that just wouldn't make any sense. The visual effects are everywhere, I don't see how in hell they could have faked that in an ingame video.

I'm still very sure it will be an amazing game when it's released.

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I am _ Ace_1 _ , and I approve this message.

Isn't HL2 supposed to be finished like...real soon?

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"Look at me! I'm Tracer! BLAHBLAHBLAH!"

-MBeggar

Maybe it will be released, but Valve might pull another stunt or something. Though, if they delay it longer, and it still pwns on it's release, I dont care.

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I am __Ace_1__ , and I approve this message.

[This message has been edited by Ace1 (edited August 11, 2004).]

I say we hold our judgement. After HL2 comes out we'll know about that. After Q4 comes out (a very different take on the Doom 3 engine) comes out, we'll know about that.

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And after Duke Nukem Forever comes out... ah that ones only borderline funny now...

Big fat cow, Emon was right to go off at you for being a HL2 loverboy. You're telling us that HL2's "lip-syncing" technology is going to be better than anything Doom3 has, and that somehow you haven't heard that Doom 3 has rather good lighting which Source doesn't.

Until terrain-destruction is supported hardware-wise(wasn't there some new-fangled thing coming out that was meant to do that? then again I remember hearing that on the later cards putting FSAA on would have zero effect on FPS...) Source's terrain destruction won't be any better than Red Factions, ie not much of it and jerky.

The best comparison would be made when . . . uh , I don't know . . . uh. . when . . . .

HL2 ACTUALLY COMES OUT.

Wow, you weren't kidding when you said you weren't following Doom 3's technology. Let me put it this way...I'll be surprised if Source has a GUI system anywhere as good as Doom 3's...
(In other words, hell yeah Doom 3 can and does have control panels with camera views...it even has some cameras pointing over the players shoulder at the control panel creating an intersting HOM effect...)

Also, I kinda doubt we'll be seeing much deformable terrain done well anytime soon. It's really just a little gimick thing, and Red Faction proved that it's impact on gameplay isn't all that revolutionary...it's a nightmare from a level designers point of view, and in the end is more trouble then it's worth.

The way I see it, Source would've been great if it came out when they had pretty much finished it (back in 2002 if I remember correctly). However, it doesn't have what it takes to stand against engines like Doom 3 and UnrealEngine 3.0, which is painfully apparent when the only Source licensed games are two RPG's.

You could do real time video monitors in Quake 3...possibly Quake 2...

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Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.

You could do video monitors in Mario Kart 64. I mean Come on. No really. Come on shelly.

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[Edit: Well, apparently my post got screwed up. Hell with it.]
[Edit: Let's try this again.]

Apology accepted.



... Wow.

Okay, for one, you apparently aren't reading my posts. Two, I'm not a HL2 "loverboy". And three, even if I were, flaming is against the rules.

As for the rest of that... Did I say that HL2's lip-syncing will be better than Doom 3's? No. I didn't. Read my posts before you comment, thanks.

And I've admitted, in this very thread, that Doom 3 excells at lighting. It has better lighting than HL2 does. But why is that such a big leap for editting? Lighting can only affect gameplay so much.

And Source doesn't use terrain destruction, it uses terrain deformation. I know it can deform it up/down, but I'm not sure what else it's capable of. Regardless, it seemed pretty smooth in the videos, and it has a good amount of mod potential.

In response to Gebro... From what I understand (And I believe it's in the link I posted at the beginning of this thread. Guess no one clicked it.), Doom 3 and HL2 both use VGUI-2, so I would assume Source would be capable of the same thing. I wasn't aware that included the camera system, as well, so if that's the case I withdraw my earlier comment.

To Emon... As for real time monitors in Quake 3... If it's possible, I havn't seen it. The closest I've seen is activating a console and having the player's view switched somewhere else. But if you say it's there, I believe you.

But seriously, though. Please, for the love of God, stop calling me a HL2 fanboy. I'm not. I simply think, given what information I have, that HL2 will be a more versatile engine to edit. I'm allowed to have an opinion, aren't I? If you want to change my mind, give me some information. Insulting me and calling me a fanboy just proves how immature you are, and how you are unable to participate in a civilized discussion.

On a side note, to help prove that I'm not a damn fanboy, I almost picked up Doom 3 today, but I didn't have enough cash. Sucks.

[This message has been edited by A_Big_Fat_CoW (edited August 12, 2004).]

Hey, check this out...

http://www.homelanfed.com/index.php?id=25316

The Doom 3 SDK is going to include the physics code...heh heh, too bad Half Life 2 uses Havok 2, since otherwise they could do the same...

<3 id.

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Man I can't wait for that SDK. I've got a super high resolution Smith and Wesson pistol that I have been working on. It'll be in doom 3 when I get that sdk.

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I figure that one day I'll either be famous, or in prison. But I guess if I'm going to prison, I should probably try to do something that would make me famous anyway.

!!!!...!!.!!!!.....!!

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Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.

The physics will be included in the SDK??!! Wowzers. Say goodbye to the "hit" problem. Say goodbye to super-bouncy grenades.

Also, Doom III apparently supports vehicles already; they just weren't used. So the SDK is coming with a test level with some sort of six wheeled buggy.

It seems strange that Doom III has all these features that were never used in the actual game...

I think I may decide to edit Doom III rather than HL2 at this point, since the differences seem negligible, and Doom III is a known quantity at this point, since it's actually been released. Plus I simply cannot imagine any GUI system kicking more *** than Doom III's.

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Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.

3 words:
Rideable...Cyber...Demon

Its been said before, how can Doom3's VGUI kick more *** then anything else....if half-life 2 uses VGUI 2? (which is what doom 3 uses I think. not sure tho)

Not only that, but everyone is going "OMG OMG OMG" @ physics code, but what does that REALLY mean for editing that makes it so amazingly great?

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"Judging by the name of the author, and the name of the work, I'd guess it's an energy "beam". You know, like in the Japanese cartoons where those guys with big hair fly around, talk philosophy, and shoot fireballs at each other." - Hellequin

Uh, it means you can do anything with the physics engine you want...anything. You could add liquid physics for example (not feasible on current hardware though).

Edit: Why would HL2 use "VGUI2"? I thought Doom's GUI was proprietary.

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Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.

[This message has been edited by Emon (edited August 12, 2004).]

I'll admit im becoming more impressed with what I'm hearing with D3, but I still expect more from HL2.

Also, as for the physics being editable in D3, and Hl2 editors "stuck with Havok 2":

I'm guessing Valve will be smart and allow some, at least, if not all of the physics to be editable.

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I am __Ace_1__ , and I approve this message.

[This message has been edited by Ace1 (edited August 12, 2004).]

They can allow some of it, but the problem is that they can't just open up the whole physics engine because it's licensed by Havok, they can't give away all the source code. id isn't limited by that obligation.

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Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.

Where did you hear that Doom 3 used VGUI-2? From looking at the GUI scripts in Doom 3, it appears to be an advanced form of Quake III Team Arena's GUI system like what I saw in Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy.

Here is some detailed info on Doom 3's GUI system and where its roots started (Quake III Team Arena as it happens )

http://www.doom3world.org/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=3127

http://newsfeed.fatorcaos.com.br/000044.html

[This message has been edited by Gabro_bot (edited August 13, 2004).]

Jedi Academy didn't have anything approaching Doom 3's GUI system. That is, in-game GUI; apparently the menus and HUD are done with the same system as the in-game computer screens with Doom 3. JA may have used the former, but it certainly had nothing like D3's in-game GUI system.



Well, Half Life 2 isn't out yet, so it can't be kicking anything. Doom 3 has a better GUI system than any game currently existing. I have not seen the limits of what HL2's GUI system is capable of (beyond that demo with a screen of the G-Man and it moving around), but Doom 3 can do the same thing, and I haven't seen any in-game computer interaction to the extent that Doom 3 does it in HL2 so far.

I'm no "Doom 3 fanboy". I think Half Life 2 will be great. "Will be". It's not out yet, so criticising Doom 3 for having something less than Half Life 2 is ridiculous; Doom 3 is here and on time. Half Life 2 was supposed to be released a year ago and we've heard nothing but lies from the company making it since.

The thing I'll be editing HL2 is for the AI. In the beCOUGHta, I witnessed the AI zombies picking up barrels and throwing them at me, trying to escape by breaking wooden planks that blocked a door, and just really good pathfinding abilities.

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[="Rememeber that history isn't how the corporate controlled media made it look like. Read between the lines and free your mind. Evolution is the birth of equality and the anti-thesis to opression." - Immortal Technique=]

Massassian since: March 12, 2001

[This message has been edited by Sol (edited August 13, 2004).]