I've begun working proper on a whole new site design now. Unfortunately it seems I'll have to do most of it from scratch, as there simply isn't anything out there that will do what I really need, that is, simple, complete integration with vBulletin, our file db, and our future design.

I have decided that no amount of sitting around and researching is going to make this work, so I am going to dive in. This is the plan:

Part 1 - The Content

Return Massassi to its editing roots in a unique and useful way. This idea is courtesy of Jon`C, so credits to him for this much. Imagine http://moddb.com with a focus on development instead of publicity. Moddb's weakness is that they cater as only a front end, a file and video repository for various modifications. They also support some tutorials, but they are sparse and not tightly integrated with the community as a whole.

The new Massassi will take these elements of Moddb's front end, and supplement them with a variety of services for developers to use in creating various mods. This includes hosting services for the developers for any aspects of their modifications, including assets, scripts, documentation, etc. These services will be available for individual developers as well as teams, where access to the resources can be managed collectively, safely, and securely.

In addition, the term "mods" will be opened to more general content, allowing developers who enjoy more specific creative endeavours (such as models, textures, music, etc) to store and display their works in an organized and sensible manner. The best part of using this system, is that if other projects wish to make use of your models, textures, etc, they can simply add it to their project from the interface, it will be placed into their assets, and you will be included as a contributing artist for the project's credits. It's great for creating a sense of community, and to get a feel for contributing without committing to a project.

Having your content hosted on the site can help ensure that your content is not stolen by others without your permission (assets uploaded to projects will be compared to existing content site-wide). You can allow content to be reused freely (Creative Commons or Public Domain-style), reused only with permission (they will request the use, you will OK it), or upload it for display purposes only. You also will receive credit for the parts of the project you contribute to, such as models, levels, etc. If you work with others on, say, a level, everyone who contributes will receive credit (This can be verified by the Project Leader and the original creator of the file). Almost all of this will be done automatically, based on a few preferential settings in your profile.

Content that is in progress will be given a development timeline, allowing visitors to see progress made on the content. New screenshots,

Also, tutorials will be another form of content, which can also be credited. If a reader finds a tutorial helpful in his project, he can mark it as so, and future readers can see that a tutorial was helpful in X Project's development. This will let others see the true effectiveness of a tutorial, as opposed to a simple "rating" mark. After all, what says more about a good tutorial, a 4 star rating, or "Wow, the devs at the Black Mesa mod found this tutorial helpful!".

Addendum: I'd also like to give a tip of the hat to the guys at the JK Editing Hub, from which I have also received some good ideas.

Part 2 - The Community

The community will be at the heart of the site. Every texture pack/model/level will be given it's own thread automatically, as a type of "commenting" system. Project teams can apply for an entire subforum (Really, 2. One public, one private, for the team).

An artist's profile will be expanded, using vBulletin's social features in combination with the content created by the user. Essentially this is the Web 2.0 version of the Editor's Corner. The profile will contain a list of works done by the artist, as well as projects he/she is in. Users who often contribute content to the site, or regularly comment on other's content, will be given added benefits (yet to be determined).

The main forums will continue on intact, I do not wish to upset the current community. One important aspect of this change is that there will be one account for the entire site, including the forums. So little will change here for you all. The forums will just slowly grow larger as more is added.

Part 3 - The Cruft

Massassi has a great library of old levels, modifications, and other resources. While it's unfortunate that the games these things were made for have died off, I do not wish to neglect our "heritage". The old content will of course remain fully available as it always has. Unfortunately, adding it to the new site will be simply impossible, due to simple inconsistencies that would develop (the many hundreds of developers who don't even have accounts here, for one). There will instead be a separate, small section of the site dedicated to the "Historical Massassi". Inside will be an improved system for viewing and finding the old materials, as well as a needed face lift in design.

I will also try to create a conversion system, with which users can apply to have their content moved from the old database to the new one, with all the new functionality. This process will not be automatic, as the moderators will need to be sure that the person applying is indeed the original author. I believe this will be the best way to merge the old with the new, without breaking either.

<hr>

I won't lie, this will be a long, hard project, especially for one guy. I will enlist the help of others as I go (especially in the art department), but I will do my best to code it. I may fail, I may run out of motivation, it's all possible. But I figure I have nothing to lose except some of my time here, so I will give it my best shot.

As for the plan, I consider it mostly set in stone. I will flesh other things out as I go, and make changes as necessary as the project unfolds. Feel free to offer your opinions, but I don't expect to change it much. This is how I feel is the best method to reinvigorate Massassi, so I'm going to go with my gut, stop beating around the bush, and get cracking.

Oh, and please be serious in this thread. I'm going to delete any stupid posts on sight without warning.

This actually sounds like the best proposal i've seen for this project. good on yer matty. good luck. if i could help i would, but i'm useless in the areas you need help in.

Sounds awesome! I particularly like the editing community ideas, speaking as someone who is editing for a community that never visits the showcase forum.

*ahem*

You are so screwed beyond all belief. You have no chance to survive. You best make your time.

(That's my way of saying "break a leg" there. Keep us up to date on even the smallest of updates with this please!)

Sounds like a great plan. Let me know if I can do anything. I'm incredibly busy lately, but I can try to fit things in if I know about them.

Thanks for the votes of confidence and the offers for help! It's nice to hear I've got some support behind me on this.

I'll get in contact with everyone when I need help on specific parts, although I imagine it won't be for some time yet. I need to get the framework written first before anything, and that's just a lot of tedious but simple coding.

Yeah, definitely sounds much like a much better direction for Massassi. And it's good to see a return to what made Massassi great.

I haven't time to figure out what's really going on so forgive me if I'm missing something. On the note of JKHub, I agree on some really good ideas there, but I always felt that it could have been structured better because searching and browsing through the database of mods/works is a headache. And trying to find what is up with what a certain member is doing is also a pain because his progress with editing endeavors is defined by what project he is involved with, not what his actions as an editor/modder. Thus there is much "bloat" from unfinished projects and brain farts of ideas that get dropped so easily. But you also mention an "Editor Corner 2.0," which I think also works because of it's "people first, projects second" sort of thing (which is something ModDB doesn't grasp).

So I'm just asking for clarification. If I wanted to list my development of work or projects, I understand I need an account or "profile". Would this profile be how people would find me and what I do (like Editor'ss Corner) or is it more structured for people find information/resources on what project I'm doing (like in JKHub)? Because, at first thought, it would seem to make a more tighter community if we could see who is doing what instead of what projects are being done.

Does that make sense? Or was it what you already had in mind? It's just I don't think this site and it's potentially great effectiveness should be bogged down by "143 project ideas that went nowhere" by User12345, which is sorta the problem with JKHub's model (and lesser extent of ModDB's). Instead, it would be more about User12345's profile to see how/what's he is doing, so all his ideas that went nowhere could all be "self-contained" and wouldn't exactly be the focus. So in others, more geared toward...

User12345 --> projects/works/ideas by him ---> what's happening with those projects/work

This brings up a good point. I'll need to make sure I handle that case, the case of unfinished projects. I think an excellent way will be to have a filter for such projects when searching, and marking them as unfinished when browsing.

You can see both, really, depending on how you go about it. The main site will focus on browsing projects/content based on games, type of content, (now) finished status, and popularity (# of downloads). In addition, you can search based on numerous factors, including contributors.

Also, you can browse the people on the site, or search through them. This would be a more Editor's Corner type of system. You would find their profile, and in their profile would be their latest content submissions, as well as any projects they are assigned to.

Finally, inside each project will be the timeline, in which you can see each individual person's additions as the project continues (unless the Project Leader/contributor marks this information as private, which they have the choice of). You can also click on their name in the contributors list of the project to see everything they have been given credit of related to that project.

Projects will be only a section. Imagine blocks, like this:

[General User Info]

[Forum Info]

[Latest Content submissions - click to view all]

[Latest Projects - click to view all]

And of course you could filter projects/content by completion status as well as sort by the different factors (rating, downloads, type, game, etc).

Does that answer your questions? I was a bit confused as to what you meant so I tried to explain myself thoroughly.

Sounds good to me, are you just doing game mods, or other projects as well?

Yeah.

To make a example of what I had in mind, at first, would be something more like (all on one page):



....instead of each having their own separate site. Like a blend with the logic of Editor's Corner with the involving, dynamic nature of JKHub.

The second question is to what extent should the new Massassi do with mod project themselves. In other words, should the new site actually try to host full scale mod projects or just stay "on the sidelines" with helping development instead worrying itself with products? Having mods featured with JKHub worked in a way because mods with JK tend to be one-man affairs, but mods of today have their own websites, a fairly large team of people and often use a separate server to host files and related stuff.

You mentioned a critical idea that the new Massassi would be more about "development" rather than an advertising front for mods, and I really like that idea. I mean, should the new Massassi even worry itself with "projects"? Should it really concern itself over said projects' progress? If we appeal to the smaller modders/editors who just like to map, model or program but have no interest in being part of real mods or big projects, it would maybe be much friendly and more community-driven than to take something like ModDB's approach of "it's all about MODS, MODS, and MODS!" Not to mention larger-scale mods and mod groups tend to bring much unneeded drama and elitism instead of the little guy just experimenting with editing...

By dropping the idea of having pages dedicated just to a single mod and even every little piece of work, a development "team" can sign up for a profile if they are serious about a large project. So instead of pages, downloads and forums clogging up the site about, let's say, "Black Mesa Mod," there would be a cleaner profile for the "Black Mesa Mod developers" which would just have insight on development and sometimes shared resources/tutorials here and there that they used and found helpful, while the bulk of the mod work is done off-site. That way, the new Massassi doesn't get clogged with useless projects that go nowhere, be more developer and development focused instead about the rush completing mods, doesn't have to regulate itself constantly to sort out what the hell the projects are doing themselves and the drama they bring with them, and other stuff... I haven't really thought it through to the end but you get the point?

Sounds cool. Glad to see some changes around here. I mean, except for the IW. That was just bull****.

But your entire idea sounds awesome and I wish you luck with it.

I'm pretty much with Echoman on the small projects front.

The bulk of any game modification work is going to involve teeny tiny little changes that can be completed by a single person, usually in a couple of weeks: maps, textures, models, skins and that sort of thing. JKHub is a pretty good case study of an interface that's not designed for its target audience because it caters almost exclusively to the 'huge project' mindset. Each and every little level and cog is given its own news page, forum, team index, specification page and progress listing but it's impractical as hell.

A simple level just doesn't need these complex project tracking features. It needs hosting, exposure and a way to associate those levels with the creator and the creator's other work. I like to keep up on Xzero's work, for example, but I don't care which project he's been updating: I'd rather read a blog than gather screenshots and snippets from 20 different project pages.

An elegant solution would be to look at large teams and large projects like corporations: treat them like users. Give each user a news page, screenshot page, download page, etc. and do the exact same thing for mods.

Fakepost:
It will fail miserably.

$ sudo shutdown now

Realpost:
I like it. This isn't restricted to level editing is it? I can't map worth ****. I've tried JED/Radiant and I epically failed on all fronts. I guess I just don't have the skill and/or talent to edit. However, I have this wonderful program called Visual Studio 2008 sitting on my machine that I need to open back up. This kind of thing just might motivate me to do that esp. if others are wanting to join. I'm sure there are other software engineers here that would like to push out their creations.

this

Well, each piece will get a sort of single issue page, like all the content on Massassi currently earns. But, all of that content would be collectively stored on your profile under such headings as those, yes. To see more information on a particular piece of content, you would click on it, and it would open a new tab where you could view it, see what it's used in, it's history, and other information, and possibly download it. All of that would be on a single page for that piece of content.



I don't think we should have any problems hosting the projects, but we wouldn't try and "sell them", so to speak. If they wish to have their own websites, they can link that openly from the project's main page. Or they can put it up on Moddb. I was originally thinking of allowing template modifications and such so that mods could use the project page to also sell the project, but I realized that there's no real need for that.



Projects would merely be one piece of content in a sea of content, organized as such, and displayed as such. The only special features a project has over any specific piece of content is that it allows a development team to have somewhere to work together on, as well as build assets and get feedback on progress. The design of the projects pages would be pointed toward that goal.

However hosting would be ideal anyway, since we make such a large focus on proper attribution of content.



You wouldn't even need a project unless you were attempting something big. Incomplete projects will be filtered (and possibly even further hidden as they become stagnant), etc. Lists of downloads and such won't be clogged with different project changes as they will be not be dispersed together. Individual works will obtain separate stages to projects.

For example, when a project is updated, you will see:

[Total Conversion Failure 241 - 2 levels, 5 models updated]
[dflt.mat stargate - model released]
[purty ugly texture - texture released]

The TC is a project, the other two are simple content pieces that aren't purposed for anything.




The idea here is, short of giving each proper content a page with stats, all of it would be contained under the main project page. Each piece of content won't get a news page, it won't have a team index, a specs page. It will all be on one concise page per content.



Maps can be released without a project. ANY content can be released without a project. The purpose of a project is only to provide a more centralized area for more elaborate developments, with multiple tpeople, long development cycle, etc. Maybe that's where I didn't make myself clear.

Content is exclusive to a project. If a project has content, it will be be related to it but it will still stand on its own. It will just be categorized under the project so as not to spam the site.

If a content is released by itself, it will be related to the artist. It will not have a significant layout like a project will. It will not receive its own forums (it will get a single thread though, in a general forum for that type of content, for comments). It will not have collaborative access (although you can mark others as contributors, for say, a map).

If you want to see everything an artist has done, you need only visit their profile. EVERYTHING they have done, whether it is in a project or not, will be there. It may be filtered, but it is all there.

I may also add a section where an artist may mark some things they have done as their "Showcase items", things they are proud of or things they especially want feedback on. Those will get their own display box at the top where they will be easily seen.

And sure, there will be a "blog/news" area for an artist to detail what they've been up to.



This is essentially what I have been describing, I think. I just didn't explain it well. The artist's profile will be a portal for everything they've done, either on their own or in a project. It will be organized and filtered to be easy on the eyes, but it will all be there. If you like watching what someone is working on, this will be easy and obvious to keep up with. (I could even do RSS feeds on this)

A project will be similar, in that everything the project has done will be visible on the project's page.

All in all, keep in mind: a project is not a piece of content. A project is just that, a project, something large and containing numerous pieces of work, by possibly a great deal of people. There will not be focus on projects, merely it will be another section, just like a map, or a texture pack, or a model.

Sounds good.

I see, that makes sense. So a project is really nothing more than a combined effort of various registered users, listed on a page, instead some standalone entity.

I'm interested in this. Would we be opening this up to all 'creative projects'? Or just editing? I don't edit, but there's a lot of other projects I work on that I'd like to upload/show off.

Also, i might have missed it but are we focusing on a specific game? Or branching out to editing in general?

Have you considered a CVS system yet? There are pros and cons, just wasn't sure if you had thought about it.

I like it though. Nice job, CM.

While I agree that if this was generally focused on a certain genre of games, a series or even engine would help bring in people due to similar tastes and interests, I don't think we really have a choice. Focus on the next editable decent Star Wars PC game? Ha, I don't think that will be happening anytime some.

On the other hand, if I was mostly editing, let's say, with CryEngine 2 engine and I was pretty much the only one to edit it ...I would be left in the cold. And probably migrate to a CryEngine 2-focused editing community.

I think it's a valid issue to discuss. Catering to every taste doesn't work often enough (you never seen a "Church of Every Religion") which is why niche communities tend to be stronger knitted like Massassi ... but I don't think there is any reason to not expand unless a new JK game is announced in 2009... and it isn't garbage...

I assumed/inferred that we would "cater" to any variety of things -- a Showcase forum on steroids. Since we seemed to have all been in agreement that the members/community is focused more than the content, I don't think we require a "niche" in that regard. Perhaps I misunderstood though?

You didn't.
The way this new site could work could actually be it's driving force to bring in people, if the cards are played right. I mean, the sharing of development ideas, resources and tutorials is the strongest concept of this idea... but if multiple people with completely different engines and games collide, there wouldn't be as much of this sharing because of incompatibility. But that's still debatable. You could just say it's more for the "joy of editing" or something as someone's mapping in JA could inspire someone else's work in Source. People like to see what others are doing.

So there's alot more to that question.

Right, with some extras thrown in like project-wide collaborator file management (one user can modify another's files in the project), safety mechanisms required to do so, and private collaboration areas for the team that are not viewable to the public. Also, a project can request a subforum of its own, unlike users/content, but this is selective and only for projects that will show great promise.



I would certainly like to allow other projects, and since it's been suggested more than once, I guess I should come up with a solid way of doing so. Should they be implemented as a project though, or as some other type of content? Hmm.

We will be branching out into editing in general. Our community just isn't focused like it used to be, with people wanting to mess with various engines.

CVS, while interesting, just is overkill for this sort of thing. I will instead implement a simple web interface with the bare minimum of "repository" type features for projects only. It will keep track of who did what, no matter what, that's guaranteed. I need that for attribution. But I could also add in backups/previous versions. Maybe even allow DIFFing text if I feel fancy. Oh, and of course allowing those in the project to "check out" the project in its current state. But nothing more serious than that.

Uploading will be done via web interface (for all content as well as projects), as will organization. I may allow FTP access for projects as well, but I haven't decided for sure. I have to see how difficult it would be to implement.

For projects that die, why can't you just send the project leader an email after a certain period of inactivity saying "Unless you request otherwise, your project will be removed from Massassi"?

If the project has no content, I will. If it does have content though, I don't want to just scrap it. That's not the Massassi "KEEP IT ALL" motto. What I'll probably do is either orphan the content and delete the project, or mark the project as DEAD, which will keep it from appearing in anything except specific searches for such dead projects. Edit: Projects would only reach such a status if they were inactive for a long period AND not "finished".

I guess i meant more of a content management system than CVS specifically. You answered the question I tried to ask.

What if "project" didn't mean anything more than just a container. You could have some root level categories (Editing, Software, Music, Misc), and then under each would be subcategories (Levels, skins, mods, etc), and then under each one of these you could have your "project." The project is nothing more than a name and a container/profile/whatever.

This would allow for much greater flexibility and extensibility.

I think for simplicity's sake it would be better to keep it as a traditional project, but maybe allow projects to be tagged on type. The idea you offer wouldn't fit well in the context of how I have everything currently laid out.

/*Hugz* for Matty.

Sounds great mate.

This again?

Fail less. We're not planning anymore, this is the start of the new design.

Will it actually stick unlike, you know, the Invisible Ward?

Considering overall support has been positive... I think so.

It's better not to delete stuff. Editing is just a hobby, people might drop it for a year. Plus, it would be good for Massassi to have as much content as possible...that's what keeps people coming back to the website.

Also, nice job Matty.

DON'T GO BREAKING THE FARM COOLMATTY

OR IT'LL BE KROKO'S HEAD

Once it goes live it there will not be any going back. Mostly because of the major database changes I will need to make in order to pull off the new design.

That sounds like a great plan, CM. I look forward to hearing about any and all progress.

CM should implement this with Mono so I can contribute.

.net developers on the forum qtiyd

Step 1: rewrite VB in Mono/C#.

Step 2: Realize what a cluster**** vBulletin is and implement a .NET/Mono forum system. Does LINQ work with MySQL?

cm doesn't want to use .net because he doesn't want to learn c#

y?