The problem with statutory rape is that isn't isn't always actually rape. My cousin was put in prison (I think at 18) for having sex with a girl barely younger than him (like 16 or 17). And it wasn't because she was raped, but because her parents didn't like it. Better guidelines need to be set up on statutory rape. Hell, for that matter, better guidelines need to be set up on a pretty good chunk of our laws. There's loopholes everywhere in our legal system.

------------------
For a healty meal, eat mashed potatoes, peas, and catloaf.
Massassi's cuttin' into my free time, man.
Valuable Life Lesson: Frog + Potato Gun = Blindness
Worship Examples - Christians' love for God should be seen and heard, not merely talked about. It is through actions that one is determined to be Christian, not through words. Words (and thoughts, as well) deceive even one's own self, but the heart speaks truth.

Why on earth should a kid have to die becase it's mother accedently had it? It's unwanted so just kill it! A baby! Those partial birth things are awful! If you're going to kill the poor kid at least do it when it's too little to feel it. Partial birth abortions are worse than what Hitler did. They say the pain is more intence in babies because they have no way to deal with it. "Right to choose"! Right to choose what? Your kids life? That is just not right. I wonder what they'd say to having thier brains sucked out.

I don't know about "worse than what Hitler did", but they are horrific.

------------------
Empty.

Wow. I really have no way to respond to that Hitler comment than to say that you have stupid opinions.

------------------
Capitalization
Commas
Periods
Question Marks
Apostrophes
Confusable Words
Plague Words

Yay for bringing in Hitler...

------------------
Snail racing: (500 posts per line)

---------@%

The Massassi JO/JA Single Player contest info (I don't know why I have this still in my sig)

He's quite happy to be here.

------------------
ZGPC

Well, he's right aside from the Hitler comment.

Personally I feel that abortion beyond the first brain wave is murder.

Consequently, I wrote a paper on this a year or so ago!

Enjoy.

==========================

A woman screams. She is tired and scared, sick of the tension, sick of the clinic. A nearby nurse feeds more anesthetic into her intravenous tube. The doctor, now tending to the work at hand with his forceps, turns the baby in the womb and pulls it out slightly, feet first. The doctor continues his work, delivering the baby, until finally he reaches the point where it is delivered—all but the head. It is at this point he selects his scissors as the tool of choice, jamming it into the base of the baby’s skull and widening it slightly. This allows easy insertion of the suction catheter, and the abortionist quickly proceeds with removing the baby’s brain matter as it lies, dead. With no brain matter, the remains of the baby escape the womb with ease, and the procedure is over.
This is not a story. This is not fiction. This actually occurs, thousands of times annually. But it’s ok. As proud Americans, we must protect the rights of women, the right to have an abortion, the right to remove a part of oneself. Anything less would be barbaric and uncivilized.
There are many reasons produced that abortions, especially partial-birth abortions, should be banned, of course; people often cite that fetuses are not part of the mother, and in fact it is only in the case of abortion that we ever treat them as such. They are, therefore, individuals in their own right.
This argument, indeed, carries a lot of merit. In the United States, we often use DNA as solid, unchangeable, binding evidence that can identify a single person. By the same reasoning, then, any human with unique DNA should be considered an individual, identifiable and discernable from anyone else. Although one may be quick to think of identical twins as a possible counterpoint to this logic, it is actually a bolster to it: in the case of identical twins, two people with the same DNA are still considered individuals. Therefore unique DNA is a definite symptom of a unique human, and even when DNA is the same the humans may still be unique.
But then, this fetus can hardly be considered a living human individual. It is still inside the womb. Mostly. But there is a fallacy in this thinking, or perhaps more accurately, a double standard. If a pregnant woman is killed with intent, and her baby dies, we consider this, in our legal system, double murder. One cannot murder that which is not a human life, that which is not a viable person. So somehow we discern between wanted babies and unwanted fetuses; one is a person and one is a “product of conception”.
But this point is irrelevant: surely this fetus could never survive if the doctor had not intervened, anyway, right? It was doomed when labor started. Except partial-birth abortions occur in the third trimester. In fact, if the head of the fetus were merely another four inches along, for the doctor to surgically remove the baby’s brain matter it would be considered a murder, a travesty, a violation of its rights. It is indeed disturbing to think of the fetus, its body torn unsuspecting from the womb, desperately trying to scream from the intense pain it has been medically proven to feel just seconds before death.
If it is true that these babies are individuals, then perhaps it is our duty to defend them, to stand up for them—to protect them. Historically, such social and ethical revolutions have met with similar resistance as the abortion issue. Institutionalized slavery, for instance, met with widespread resistance when it was first opposed. The slave was property, not person. One could not take another’s property. Property cannot have its rights violated, property cannot feel pain, property cannot ever be the same class of citizen as the owner. This same logic seems to be recycled for abortion; a fetus cannot have its rights violated, a fetus cannot feel pain, a fetus isn’t a real person, a fetus is never as important as the mother. We must be careful not to fall into the treaded paths of the past; it is foolish to think that we, civilized citizens in a modern society, would somehow be immune to the ideas of the past, ideas that simply reinvent themselves for the future. We cannot think with such clouded judgment, arbitrarily deciding what lives and dies for our convenience, what is a person and is not a person depending on usefulness.
We must end partial-birth abortion, and perhaps abortion altogether. We must not be so complacent simply out of convenience. We must differentiate ourselves from the slave-owners of the past. We must rise above our tendencies towards such accommodating barbarism. We must end partial-birth abortion.

------------------
Ω of 14

Hello wall of words. Goodbye wall of words.

But I stand by my opinion--in the first trimester, abortion should be okay, ESPECIALLY if it's from rape or incest. And by rape, I don't mean statutory rape, I mean REAL rape, as in a girl getting taken advantage of, wheter or not she reports it to police.

And the reason I stick by the first trimester thing is that the fetus hasn't really grown into a baby yet. It's still too undeveloped to be significant.

------------------
There is no signature

So how is working people to death any worse than sucking thier brains out? Hitler killed 6,000,000. We've killed 40,000,000 defencless babies.

I still don't know why a kid has to die even if he was born by rape. Is it the kids fault? No. Why punish the poor kid? At least give him chace. What if you had been conceived by rape? You could have been the kid who's brain got sucked out.

I doubt it, but what if a kid isn't a person untill he frist has a brain? We don't know where the boundery is. And who are we to define it! Is that the kind of chance you want to take with the lifes of potentially billions of people?
/me waits for God to come back

[This message has been edited by Obi_Kwiet (edited August 26, 2004).]

You know, you would have had a decent argument if you didn't add that last comment about God. If you keep doing that, no one is going to take you seriously.

*gasp* Are you saying your truth is better than my truth!! *much scarcasm and irony*

[This message has been edited by Obi_Kwiet (edited August 26, 2004).]

Wtf are you on about, boy?

I continue to love how it's perfectly fine to kill an 8 month old fetus, but it's illegal to murder a 1 month old baby.

------------------
What once was...
Snail racing: (500 posts per line) ---@%

Well, I don't know about you in particullar, but many people around here seem to have some open minded "choose the truth that fits you best" attitude.

Basicly I'm a Christian, and if you don't like it, I really couldn't possibly care less.

*********Help!!!!I can't reply!!!**********

[This message has been edited by Obi_Kwiet (edited August 26, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Obi_Kwiet (edited August 26, 2004).]

hooray! he got it right! he's gone up in my book, at least.

Why the hell are these women waiting so freaking long to abort their pregnancy? Seriously.

------------------
WOOSH|-----@%

Locating abortion clinics? Money? Maybe insurance (I doubt it covers the procedure)?

------------------
Snail racing: (500 posts per line)

---------@%

The Massassi JO/JA Single Player contest info (I don't know why I have this still in my sig)

The problem is, the truth that fits you best may not be the truth at all, it may be a horrible atroscity. That's why it's so important to consider the consequences of your actions, especially concerning other life.

My stand is at the first brainwave. It makes logical sense and doesn't make up arbitrary deadlines like "first trimester".

------------------
Ω of 14

While some of Obi_Kwiet's stuff may sound ridiculous, he has a good point about rape. Tragic as it is (trust me, I know EXACTLY how tragic), it's not a justifiable excuse to abort the fetus. To me, the unborn fetus takes precidence over your emotional state. I think that something potentially good can come from such a horrific event. Put the child up for adoption. TONS of parents are willing to accept it.

------------------
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat.

I understand that. I just think it would be courteous of them to call up the legislature, and say, "hey, you guys made a mistake. Here's how to fix it". and get it fixed on the spot, rather than being arrogant assbastards and throw it out the window, and delay social progress another 2 years.

------------------
Have a good one,
Freelancer

I would also like to expand my previous views. In the case of rape(forced and statutory) as well as the pregnancy being in the first trimester, I would like to see the alternative of adoption strongly suggested to the mothers-to-be.

Adoption is almost always better than abortion, imo. But that doesn't mean I think abortion should be completely outlawed. I believe everything has a time and place.

And anyone who tries to pass off his opinion on abortion and the morality of it as cold hard fact is an arrogant gasbag. It is a philosophical question that has no answer in sight, so stop pretending it does. It's a very complex issue that can not be solved by a simple "Yes" or "No".

------------------
Debating politics on the internet is about as useful and productive as shoving a broomstick up your *** .

[This message has been edited by Kieran Horn (edited August 26, 2004).]

If you don't know absoultly for sure if fetus are human, it would be very wrong to kill him/her.

Hitler killed more than 11,000,000. He killed ~6,000,000 Jews. I'm amazed how people can forget about the other 5,000,000+ "untermenschen."

Immediately after fertilization, there is a new life. It is a simple life, but it is a life. It is comparable to the countless bacteria we encounter everyday, and more advanced than the viri surrounding us. But if you really want to get technical, it is a parasite. And we all hate parasites.

------------------
Roach - Gyring and gimbling in the wabe...
0 of 14.

It's not an issue of knowledge, it's an issue of your opinion and your morals.

Where does your 40,000,000 come from?
I did a little bit of calculating, that's to say that we've aborted one seventh of our population.

Hitler killed 12,000,000, all of whom were entirely sentient, and many of them died more horrible deaths than aborted fetuses, certainly worse than common abortion methods, and perhaps worse than having your brain sucked out.

If you don't know where the boundary is, and don't think you are the one to define it, then what's your point? You're clearly defining a boundary by your argument.

For the record, I'm against partial birth abortions except to save the life of the mother. In the case of normal abortions, I believe there should be much done to make abortions unnecessary: better dissemination of information related to contraception (where have we heard this before?), orphanages and adoption agencies, and so forth, but there are cases in which an abortion should be the mother's right.

------------------
Capitalization
Commas
Periods
Question Marks
Apostrophes
Confusable Words
Plague Words

Whilst I'm for an abortion early on in the pregnancy when the fetus hasn't developed... this late? I'm sorry, I just can't support it unless there is some clear threat to the mother's life....and from what I just read in that article that seems to be the sticking point.

------------------
Cantina Cloud | BCF | The Massassian 1, 2 & 3 | Gonk WoW Petition <- SIGN!
Corrupting the kiddies since '97

Abortions are sick, but I'm for legal abortion because it's such a much better option than back alley abortions. You lose either way, really, one just makes you...lose more.

------------------
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.

so you are one of those people that believes in no absolutes, eh? (correct me if i'm wrong)

Well with that logic, if I was to jump you and steal your car, it must be okay b/c I would benefit from it. See the fallacy in this situation?


A world without absolutes is a world in which people run amok killing each other and blood will flow waist high in the streets.



------------------
I have found that you can transform your character solely by the power of belief: as you believe yourself to be, so you shall become over time.

[This message has been edited by Pagewizard_YKS (edited August 26, 2004).]

Not really. It's still her body, since the baby, is still inside HER. And even if it is not her choice completely, she still has more choice over what she wants to do with what is inside HER body than someone else, like any male on the planet, telling her otherwise. Baby or no baby, its inside HER. See, this is why males have the viewpoints they do, males have no idea what it is like to be pregnant. Nor do they even remotely understand the pain of it, nor do they really even have to do ANYTHING other than take care of their wife (which they should do regardless) during the time they are pregnant. So, you tell me, who has more right to tell a woman what to do, you? or her?



How can you possibly even compare shooting a guy in the head through a bicycle helmet to childbirth? A bicycle helmet IS NOT DESIGNED TO STOP A BULLET. A condom however, IS DESIGNED TO STOP/KILL/MURDER SPERM.



Its not even about the kid, I think its more about the person giving birth to the child. A girl that's 15 years old, raped, and becomes pregnant, is not going to want her life ruined by having to take care of a child at her age. Therefore, her choice to abort the baby, should be her own and nobody elses.



Ok, have you ever been raped? Have you ever had to worry about an unwanted pregnancy, due to being raped?

The point I am trying to make here is this:

Most of the people that are against abortions (if not anywhere else, at least here), are males. And no matter how much research we do, or whatever, WOMEN are the ones that give birth. WOMEN go through the pain, WOMEN go through everything. Men do dick all. We get the girl pregnant, then sit on our asses for 9 months while she endures pain, sickness, etc.

You mean to tell me, that men don't go through this, and yet they even have a right to say what the girl should do? Nuh-uh. It's a girls choice, not a man's.

Much as I hate to spoil everyone's fun, the ruling reported on has exactly nothing to do with killing a baby/fetus before it is born. The ruling deals with killing a baby (not a fetus) as it is born. There's no question at this point of viability, humanity, or any of the other concerns that make pre-birth abortion such a hotly debated issue. In this case, it's all about killing an innocent human being. Can anyone honestly support that?

------------------
"Why aren't I'm using at these pictures?" - Cloud, 4/14/02

I would! But then you'll just all think I'm a sicko.

Wait.. I just typed that down didn't I? Oh well, at least I didn't click 'submit' yet...

------------------
WAITER: Here’s your green salad, sir.
ANAKIN: What? You fool, I told you NO CROUTONS! Aaaaaaargh!

Fixed.

It amazes me that people still have unwanted pregnancies these days (rape-caused not included). With the pill, condoms, and the fact that out of the entire menstrual cycle there is only a twelve hour window for the sperm to fertilize the egg (though I realize sperm can live up to about five days in the best of conditions) the odds are just amazingly against prepared people getting pregnant.

------------------
Roach - Gyring and gimbling in the wabe...
0 of 14.

[This message has been edited by Roach (edited August 27, 2004).]

I'm pro-abortion. To work on what a few people have stated before:

Imagine that your are a 14 year old girl. You have just started to enter woman-hood and are starting to have periods. As you are walking home from school one day, you say good-bye to your friends and then head home. You take a shortcut through an alley because you have to get home early to work on Ms. Beagals English assignment. While you are walking through the alley, you hear someone coming up from behind you. You walk faster, but the persons footsteps get faster.

You turn around to see who it is and are startled to find a strange man. The next few moments flash by in an instant. The man has raped you. He has run away and you are alone in the alley, weeping and feeling miserable. You head home crying.

When you enter your house, your mom asks you why you are crying. Too embarressed to tell her the truth, you say that you have had a fight with one of your friends, and you head to your room.

Flash by a couple of weeks. Your period is late. You are worried. You make an appointment at a doctor's office. When they tell you that you are pregnant, you are horrified. You don't know what to do. There are two options. Tell your parents that you are pregnant, and have the baby. Go through monthes of pain, mood swings, nagging from fellow students at school. then give birth to the child. You are too young to care for the child but it is your duty to care for him. You drop out of school to take care of your child. Your future is ruined because of wanting to take a shortcut home from school.

Or...you could tell your parents that you are pregnant, and you can have an abortion. You don't have to go through monthes of torment. You don't have to drop out of school. You now have a promising career as a doctor, because you love the idea of helping other people who are having troubles.


*phew* People don't look at abortion through the patients eyes. Imagine yourself in this position, and you'll probably want to have an abortion yourself.

{edit]opps big spelling error[/edit]
------------------
"Anyone who talks about martial arts on the internet is a weakling geek fool. I took karate, does anyone else take any martial arts?" -James Saibot

"i can get my beast going as hard as it will go, but when i go to play my games it cant handle all the action." -scared little monkey talking about his computer

[This message has been edited by Shadow89 (edited August 27, 2004).]

First Trimester means first 3 months.

And I think that's a good window, because iirc, the fetus doesn't have a brain yet.

------------------
There is no signature

That's all well and fine, and I'd say abortion in that case is warranted. However, most abortions aren't carried out for rape victims, just for selfish irresponsible young girls who "don't want a baby." Shouldn't have had sex then, deal with it.

See you portray it as the end of the world when someone is the victim of a rape and ends up pregnant. No one person says that she HAS to raise the child after birth. Her life is not over and done just because she has a human growing within her. She's not incapable of doing tasks. Granted some will be more challenging due to biological effects. Again, I still can't find the justification for abortion. But that's just me.

------------------
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit, sed diam nonummy nibh euismod tincidunt ut laoreet dolore magna aliquam erat volutpat.

if she went and had the baby, how could she care for it and attend school at the same time. I'm sure the parents would be very reluctant to raise him/her. Don't think about the present, think about the persons future.

------------------
"Anyone who talks about martial arts on the internet is a weakling geek fool. I took karate, does anyone else take any martial arts?" -James Saibot

"i can get my beast going as hard as it will go, but when i go to play my games it cant handle all the action." -scared little monkey talking about his computer

Adoption, daycare, family, friends. It's not impossible. The issue is fundamentally based on people who are too irresponsible to deal with their own mistakes in a mature way. Nothing is anyone's fault anymore. Just abort it! It's not your fault the condom broke! Except technically it is, since most non retarded people realize that condoms break, and **** happens.

So you are saying, "oh well. **** happens. I'm pregnant. meh."

------------------
"Anyone who talks about martial arts on the internet is a weakling geek fool. I took karate, does anyone else take any martial arts?" -James Saibot

"i can get my beast going as hard as it will go, but when i go to play my games it cant handle all the action." -scared little monkey talking about his computer

How about this? **** women. I don't give a **** wether they carry the baby or not. It is A HUMAN LIFE. A pregnant woman has no more the right to end a human life than anyone else. Excluding rape victims, it is the woman's fault in the first place that she got pregnant. She should deal with the consequences. There is absolutely NO excuse for ending a human's life.

Oh, but I'm male. I guess that means you don't care about my opinion then, eh? **** you too.

[Edit]Adding more to my earlier post. I'm not sure if you know this, but it takes a male and a female to create life. Regardless of who carries it, men have as much say in the matter as women do. Still not convinced? Men lead our country. Men fight our wars. Men keep crime off the streets (Granted, there's women police officers and such, as well, but not nearly as many.) And it's the man that usually works after a child is born. Mothers occasionally acquire a paying job sometime down the road, but in most stable families it's the father who works.

Men do just as much as women do, and you're telling me that men don't have the right to decide if his child lives or dies? Like I said earlier, **** you.

------------------
Moo.

[This message has been edited by A_Big_Fat_CoW (edited August 27, 2004).]