You don't read much, do you? Reasonable belief is a very important part of the law.
Apparently you can't trust the police, so what - the laws should be phrased to give private persons acting on their own more credibility and "leeway" than a trained officer? Or, perhaps, we should just assume everyone is guilty? Except the criminals, of course, because they have rights.

Do you realize how ridiculous you sound?

Show me one instance where "murder" was justified in a specific situation involving non-violent non-threatening civil disobedience.

I fail to see your point about kings and queens. Civil Disobedience is a stupid move if it gets you in more trouble without accomplishing anything. Yelling "WHAT THE **** MAN I WAS RIDING MY SKAETBOARD WHAT THE **** WHAT THE **** **** YOU!" What does that accomplish?

I mean, let's look at this scenario. I could either
A. Take the arrest, shut my mouth, go to court
B. Get arrested, starting yelling obscenities about cops and telling them to **** off which does absolutely nothing at the maximum to increase my chances of getting off/lessening sentences/arguing police force, probably increase your chances of being hurt by a cop using force, and then go to court

Civil Disobedience is cool, but you can also weight it out on the margin and see that you have a much better chance at reversing your case by being SMART. To me, using the legal system to **** them over is more of a big "**** you" then just saying "**** you" to his face. One at least has the potential of happening, the other one just doesn't help anything whatsoever. Now I know the legal system isn't perfect, and Mentat I agree that it is tough in places to get cops fired, but at least if you choose to be smart you have great potential for it working than if you put up a big fuss and then go to court.

Also sidenote: I just remembered the one clip in the first post about the kid who was biking and the cop just dives at him and pushes him off the bike. I hardly believe that there actually was no reason that he hit him off his bike. There were literally hundreds of people who probably saw that. The video showed the biker in the frame for like a maximum of .5 seconds. He could've murdered someone right before that and we wouldn't of known because of the small context of the video. Like I said, I know cops are dicks sometimes, but there are certain cases in that video where I find it hard to believe there wasn't some context present.

I recognize the fact that you're a cop & that this is an emotional issue for you but I don't really see any reason that you should accuse me of having aphasia. Philosophical differences don't always mean that the other side is dyslexic or stupid. Sometimes they simply disagree with you.


I agree. It's quite convenient that police often get to hide behind the guise of "reasonable belief". I would think that it would be very difficult to prove that an officer didn't believe something or that their belief was unreasonable.

You made it one sentence into my post. How ironic.

The law I quoted specifically mentioned "reasonable belief" on the part of private persons, as well as law enforcement officers. It is apparent to me that you missed that entirely, or decided to ignore it because it didn't fit your "we can't trust cops" agenda.

I used to be in support of police, but I don't really think it's safe to have someone as unstable as JLee armed on the streets. Mentat, you should stop provoking him before he goes out and starts tazing even more people than he probably already does.

It takes me a long time to read because I can't read, remember? I'm on sentence 2 at the moment.

Guys :/

I think here you're exhibiting the exact reason why many of us don't trust the police. You have an "us versus them" mentality. You think that you have more credibility than the citizens that you're supposed to be protecting & serving. What you fail to recognize is that we're all criminals in your mind. Every one of us illegally downloads media, breaks the speed limit & smokes marijuana. We all break the law at some point in our lives, whether purposely or accidentally.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-10001149-93.html

Ah, thank you very much Mentat! Although it doesn't quite say what happened other then the investigation was pending :/. I mean it says there was a public outcry and that the man was cited for all those offenses. Like I said, I still question the tactics used to get him, although I don't think it was anywhere near "deadly force", but it'd be interesting to see the result of the investigation.

BOTH of you have an 'us vs them' mentality (mentatity, heheh), and to be honest it seems like you're demonstrating a bit more of one, Mentat. This isn't to say that your points aren't valid, but you seem to be placing the citizenry strongly in opposition to the police, and JLee seems to be mostly defending himself from these accusations, only occasionally lapsing into that sort of opposition.

Not trying to push for a specific side here, but that seems to be the general character of your posts in this thread. No lie, I actually was a bit confused by the difference in tone between your posts here and in most threads, even in your work woes thread.

I think it's still pending. The article & video give you a little more context, though not much.

I've made it no secret that I'm not a big fan of law enforcement (for reasons that are personal (most of which I won't be going in to here) as well as non-personal). However, there's a difference between JLee & myself. He's a law enforcement officer that probably carries a taser & gun. That being said, I'd love to feel like I can trust the police. I just think that they do a piss-poor job at gaining my trust. It's sort of like when Americans claim that terrorists hate freedom or like when Christians claim that Atheists don't want to believe in God. I'd personally love it if I could obtain eternal life in heaven.

One thing I've always struggled with is the concept of "no fighting back." I have a very strong idea of justice (though it may not be accurate), and know I wouldn't appreciate some cop knocking me for no reason. I would be extremely tempted to attempt to cave in his face - which would land me in prison, even though the cop was assaulting me unlawfully. A cop can come up, kick my *** for no reason, and I can't fight back or I am breaking the law. I mean, if he stopped me safely and nicely, then handled me properly, I would be OK, but to just walk up and starting pounding would get me into some serious "assaulting an officer" trouble.

Yeah yeah Wonderboy (JLee) I know the cop can get into trouble afterward, but getting put on paid administrative leave pending an investigation is hardly going to make me feel better.

nail...head

Seriously, though, reasonable belief is an important tenet when it comes to self-defense as well. Someone will always slip through the cracks (like the moron who points a water-gun painted black at the cops), and I do agree that it seems cops get away with it more than your average citizen (based on the news reports I read). But I wouldn't ask anyone go go out there without the knowledge that they have the right to protect themselves and other innocents.

For me, and I'll freely admit it, is an inherent distrust for police officers. Well, not inherent, because I didn't have it until I was harassed by cops on numerous occasions for literally not breaking the law. My first personal experience with cops was when I was in middle school, we skateboarded a lot. When we came to a parking lot with "no skateboarding" signs, I would pick up my board and walk across. In this instance, I was literally walking across a parking lot and the cops came speeding up with their lights blaring and the guy started yelling at me that I wasn't allowed to skateboard here. 1. it's private property, 2. I was walking, not skateboarding, and 3. I did not *ever* skateboard in any places where no skateboarding signs were posted (and especially not that particular store because my mom worked there).

Most people I know have a personal story like this where the cops were being complete dicks for no reason. They are never held accountable for the "little" stuff like this. They only get held accountable when they screw up big time, like fondling women during traffic stops or beating kids half to death. ****, they don't even get held accountable when they beat their wives (see the "david brame" tacoma police chief whose wife reported being abused numerous times and the other cops just laughed at her).

So, of course people distrust the police. And it's a polarizing situation, where 50% of people have a severe distrust and the other 50% have full trust. There aren't that many people who can step back and look at each situation objectively. Clearly.

I think cops shouldn't be held to a "higher standard" for "reasonable belief," but they damn well should be held accountable for all the smaller stuff that breeds general distrust. Perhaps if they stop being dicks the rest of the time, people would start giving them the benefit of the doubt when they really need it.

Just for clarification, are you pissed that you were originally stopped in the first place with your skateboard, or the manner in which they did it? Cuz if I were a cop, I would've addressed a person with a skateboard in a no skateboard area too. How would the cop even respond to your #3? How would he inwardly know that you've never skateboarded in a no skateboard area?

Have any of you seen these YouTube videos of people making videos of cops? There's a ton of them & they're quite interesting to watch (e.g. Jimmy Justice).

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jimmy+justice&search_type=&aq=f

In response to Brian, I have to say that it may appear that I love all police officers and think they can do no wrong. That's not the case. I, too, have had a few bad experiences with police officers. Nothing big, of course, but probably about equal to the good experiences I've had. You can skip this next paragraph if you don't care about the story.

One time we were hanging out at our neighbor's apartment and they were smoking hookah (tobacco, mind you). The front door was open, and there must have been a noise complaint in the area or on us because an officer showed up. My blind friend's dog guide walked outside to see who was approaching (he is a very friendly dog) and the officer started yelling at my friend saying "I almost shot your dog!" and hassling them about what was in the hookah, about the noise, etc. I was next door, and came back out to see a guy dressed in all black asking the neighbor girls "What's your name?", and they have this terrified look on their faces. I had no idea it was a police officer. So I stepped out of the door and said "Hey, what are you doing?". He promptly spun around and screamed at me "Don't you EVER walk up behind a police officer! That's about the dumbest thing you can do!" So...I went back inside until he left. No citations, no arrests, guy was kind of a dick.

Do you know why he was a dick? Why he was so tense? Because look at it from his perspective. He is approaching a call and a huge german shepherd comes charging out of the door at him. I bet he has had vicious dogs charge him plenty of times before. Then while he is trying to take the field information he is required to take, some guy sneaks up behind him and speaks to him aggressively. In either of those instances, he could have been killed. He deals with that EVERY DAY.

Mentat, in response to some things you said a while ago:


So, you think that the superior tactic for the police in that situation would be to run away.


I find it interesting that you're able to see the mentally ill (aka completely unpredictable) person violently wielding a hammer as a human being with people who care about him and don't want him to get hurt (which is completely valid) but you fail to be able to recognize the police officers as human beings with people who care about them and don't want them to get hurt. They didn't create the violent situation. If they just ran away, as you seem to suggest they do, then there wouldn't be any point in having them at all. Their job is to confront the guy, help him if they can, but more importantly, keep him from hurting anyone else.

Trust me, I completely understand where you're coming from. But your arguments are silly, and based on your own bias developed by your personal limited experience with a few members of the group.

Um... we were WALKING. The sign doesn't say "no walking whilst holding a skateboard" it says "no skateboarding." Plus, they have no right to pull people over on private property. In fact, I believe it's illegal to do so, unless we were breaking a law. And there is no law that says no skateboarding. I don't expect the cop from 15 years ago to address #3, he likely doesn't read this message board. What I'm saying is that if cops want the citizens to trust them, they need to stop being complete dicks all the time. And they need to be held accountable for their conduct.

Update: sorry, I didn't answer your question. At the time, I wouldn't have been pissed that they stopped me had the guy been decent. However, since he was a complete dick, I was pissed both because he stopped me and because he did it with lights blaring and he started screaming at me for not breaking the law. Now, I'm pissed because I think cops way overstep their bounds and are never held accountable. And likely this will never change, and I realize that.

Yesterday I would have disagreed with you, Brian, but the more I read the more evident it becomes that the only real duty the police have is to issue citations in order to generate more revenue to continue building their standing armies against the vile forces of the civilian population. I'm no expert, but I don't think automatic weapons and explosives are needed to enforce traffic laws and they don't need them to keep peace during times of emergency such as natural disasters, because that's what the National Guard exists for.

They certainly aren't using that equipment to protect civilians from criminals:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia

That and many similar cases are listed here:

http://www.endtimesreport.com/NO_AFFIRMATIVE_DUTY.htm

I wouldn't put much faith in the journalistic integrity of "EndTimesReport.com" but there is no editorializing in the above link, just facts.

Okay, whose sockpuppet is ButterBalls? I have to know.

I think that in this particular situation it's quite likely that less people would've died if the police hadn't come in the first place. There's no way to be certain of this but no one was dead before they arrived. As this article states, "the officers attempted to subdue him with reasonable force", that "the officers tried to taze Miles and tried to use tear gas but say nothing calmed him" & that "the first officer on the scene fired shots, then the three officers that fired shots later, fired seven rounds" (he was hit 4 times). If the guy was still alive when backup arrived (assuming they weren't already there when the first shots were fired), why didn't they try once again to take him down "with reasonable force"? Surely one guy with a hammer isn't tough enough to take on 4 guys with clubs, tasers & guns. I think that this may have been more reasonable of it was 1 on 1 but as we now know, all 4 officers fired. That's suspicious, to say the least.

In addition to that, Mentat, where did the 3 rounds that DIDN'T strike him go? Is it OK for police to wildly discharge firearms into residential neighborhoods because one retard with a hammer is scaring them?

Would they be held accountable if a bystander was struck and killed by one of those wild shots?

I have a good idea what the answer to my last question is...

You say that with the benefit of hindsight and from the safety of you desk, mentat. I'm fairly sure they didn't all confer with each other around a conference table and vote "alright, let's just shoot him." I would bet you that this conference was going on (well, without the table) when he charged an officer, causing them to open fire. That probably happened in less than a second.

Sounds like pretty much every teenager on the planet. If speeding couldn't lead to killing people, I'd probably do that one too.



This. Cops can walk up to you, and for whatever reason talk down to you like you're the biggest piece of ****. What happens if you say anything back? You run the risk of being charged with assaulting a police officer.

From my experience also, I do not like the police much either. I like the idea of them, and what they represent or are supposed to be. I love what they do for the community, and how secure their simple presence makes most situations. All that goes out the door the second you run into your 10th dickish cop. But I'm also not so stupid that I don't realize there are good cops out there, tons of them. Like Mentat said perfectly:




Most of the cops I have spoken to or even seen you don't really need to even speak to, they just carry an aura of arrogance and "**** you" about them.

I guess I'd feel pretty big and tough if I got to carry a gun and taser around all day though too.

Also, what Brian said is the best way of putting it IMO.

The very first one is titled 'Traffic cop makes illegal u-turn', which is impossible. Cops aren't bound by traffic laws.

They are if there is a sign that says NO U TURNS ALLOWED.

I'm fairly certain that the cops aren't immune to inconvenient laws. You can't tell me that the cops are allowed to do whatever they want on the roads just because they are cops. That makes no sense and puts so many other lives in danger.

I didn't see anything in those videos putting lives in danger. I saw cops double parking, and one douchebag harassing them.

Anyone behind the wheel of a car with no traffic rules attached is putting lives in danger. Cop or not.

Especially a cop that might be traveling faster than other vehicles. If everyone was allowed to ignore the speed limit... How many people under the age of 60 do you think would actually drive slow?

How many of those people have the high speed driving training that the police do though.

Here's a whole list of people exempt from traffic safety laws by your logic.

http://www.nascar.com/drivers/list/cup/dps/

Also, the traffic laws obviously vary state to state but it would be ridiculous to assume that police are above the law anywhere. The first example I found in 3 minutes of googling is the Oregon state traffic laws detailed in the following link which explain that emergency vehicles are exempt from traffic laws ONLY while responding to an emergency. Not before responding and not while returning. It's not a large leap to assume most if not all state's laws are pretty similar.

https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/820.320

No. Racecar drivers don't have high speed road driving training. It's a completely different kind of training and driving.

I don't care what kind of training you have. It's still an extremely dangerous gamble. It's a chance they shouldn't take, and after the last 2 hours of googling I still can't find a specific law anywhere that states "Yes, police officers are allowed to completely ignore all rules of the road when not in an emergency situation".

I know a kid that knows TONS about flying planes, etc. Not to mention the fact that he's actually flown a plane before. Doesn't mean that he should be working for Air America.

No amount of training can prepare you for what happens every second on the road and you can't tell me that because they train it's a justified explanation for giving them no laws to abide by on the roads.

That's like telling the kid I just mentioned, after he gets his job with Air America, that because he is able to pilot a plane and has been trained how to use it that he should just ignore all the rules of aviation.

I never made that argument. And I never brought up speeding.

Things like no-uturn signs, parking spaces, even stop lights, don't exist for your safety. They exist to regulate traffic flow.

Stop building straw-men.

I held off on watching the video, I made it about 5 minutes into before I had to turn it off..

It's irritating, these men an women shouldn't be allowed to breathe. They get a power trip behind that "badge" and when they are in the wrong, rather than admit their fault, they blow up and do things that make them, and the Police in general, look extremely bad.

This has nothing to do with the police proper. They don't write the laws, and their job is to enforce them.

Also, nice godwin back there, but it reveals a lot about your mindset that you compare getting patted down with the holocaust. Get over it, in society there are compromises. Just because you were treated badly when you were smoking a doobie a few years ago, all cops are horrible beasts. Get over it.

Just for the sake of argument, how do you all feel about the incident in this video? How do you feel it differs from the incident which Mentat posted?

I'll role play as Mentat:

What they did was horrible and wrong, typical of the subhuman pigs the police are. First, they should have thoroughly investigated the man's medical history, as well as try and identify what medications he took last. Then, they should have surveyed the community on if it was proper to intervene at the time. After all checks were cleared, the proper forms signed, and they swore to put the safety of the suspect above their own, they should have approached the suspect and asked him nicely if he would please stop stabbing his mother/trying to steal vehicles. They would offer a "sugar on top" please, and promise candy and treats for good behavior.

Failing these harsh negotiative tactics they would be forced to maybe bring out the dreaded whiffle bats and tap him lightly on the shoulders. If this show of force was insufficient, the last resort would then possibly try and grapple him to the ground (if during this process one of the officers sustained severe head trauma or became incapacitated due to being swung at by large metal bars, who cares, they are tools of the man anyway).

Because enraged and unstable individuals are very easy to subdue (hell, Mentat's grandpappy took a guy out once! Therefore taking any one suspect down is insanely easy), and as the suspect had not stabbed anyone recently, they should have effortlessly been able to cuff the suspect. However, due to his mental illness, he should not be brought up on charges, but released with a stern finger waving and maybe a card with a sad face stamped on it.

I'm not saying you brought up anything. Hence why I said might be going faster.

As a side note though, generally, the police that I've seen tend to ignore the speed limits as much as the others on the road.

I'm not arguing why these signs are there, I know they are to regulate traffic. Their existence however makes the road safer. If everyone could just go wherever they wanted and not bothering to stop at all, people wouldn't be able to cross the friggin road. I can't even count how many times I've seen people run red lights, or lights that were almost red. Some seem to think that yellow means "hurry the **** up before I turn red."

It doesn't matter why these things are there, or what their being there does. And I'm not trying to nitpick in any way at your posts. The fact remains that if you put someone behind the wheel of a car, and bind them to zero rules of the road they will be driving on, you are creating a huge potential for something bad to happen. It's inevitable. It's not a matter of where and how it'll happen but when. It actually already has, and it will again.

IIRC there was some incident a while back where a cop was speeding down a main city road. I believe his siren nor lights were on, and a girl happened to be crossing the street at that particular moment. She's no longer among us and the cop... Still a working cop. I can't find the link but here's something for you to mull over thinking this kinda stuff isn't dangerous:


Training my ***.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/tyne/7409714.stm



If you ask me, sounds like they're trying to cover someone's ***. How can you not know if it was an emergency or not?



http://www.seattlepi.com/local/262092_retkrystal08.html

Cop should have been fired LONG before hand, but guess what. The law protected him even AFTER he and the DEPARTMENT currently still try to **** her over.


And then there's this gem:

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local-beat/Police_Show_Dash_Cam_Video_of_Crash_That_Killed_Boy_.html



I've seen TONS of cops going a lot faster than 20 over the speed limit, without any sirens or lights on. Glad I ain't a kid on a bike.

Again... Training my ***.

Good post, Kuat. Frankly people without experience dealing with mentally ill are in a poor position to comment. Hindsight makes people think they know what they're talking about, but all it does is show complete ignorance.

Short of having "I have a severe mental illness" tattooed on their foreheads, it is extremely difficult to diagnose anything in the field, particularly if the person is incoherent and uncooperative. Someone who is incoherent and uncooperative who is also wielding a weapon is a threat to the officers and the general public. Is it tragic that people are killed in situations like this? Absolutely. But what are the practical alternative?

I've occasioanlly had to deal with the mentally ill doing medical transports and know fellow EMS folks who have had run ins with people having full blown episodes and it is scary. Dealing with them is never simple and often requires police intervention for a variety of reasons.

As for all of the "I hate the police" sentiment in the thread, frankly, I can't feel sorry for you guys. When you take the attitude that you do into any encounters you're going to have with law enforcement, you just make it worse for yourself. Passing the "attitude test" with police makes things so much easier, including a situation where I had cops knocking on the door of my college residence with their guns drawn.