Massassi Forums Logo

This is the static archive of the Massassi Forums. The forums are closed indefinitely. Thanks for all the memories!

You can also download Super Old Archived Message Boards from when Massassi first started.

"View" counts are as of the day the forums were archived, and will no longer increase.

ForumsDiscussion Forum → Tennessee school board wants to ban my mom's biology textbook
12345
Tennessee school board wants to ban my mom's biology textbook
2010-04-08, 9:24 AM #1
so my moms cowrote this book and this guy wants to ban it and now it is on Fox News

lmao

http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/04/07/knoxville-father-wants-biology-book-banned/
Quote:
A Tennessee father told his son’s school board it should ban a biology textbook because of its ‘bias’ against Christians.

Kurt Zimmermann is appealing a Knoxville school district's decision to keep the book. He says the textbook used in his son’s biology class cites creationism as a "biblical myth." According to reports, he requests, 'non-biased' textbooks be used. In his words, the current textbook's phrasing misleads, belittles and discourages students in believing in creationism and calls the Bible a myth.

"Education material that is offensive, intolerant, racist, or one-sided in nature should not be used in our school system," Zimmermann told the board members Wednesday.

Knoxville County School superintendent Jim McIntyre says the committee's finding to keep using the book is appropriate. However he asked the board to hear Zimmerman's appeal Wednesday, April 7.

Melissa Copelan, the board’s director of public affairs tells Fox News, “when there is a concern about education materials there is a process that is followed… Now it is up to the board.”

She referred to procedure listed on the school board's Web site. When there is a complaint about curriculum board members put together a committee- six members, including the high school's principal, a biology teacher, a parent and a student.

Even though a few of the members thought the material was "questionable," the committee ultimately said it's "appropriate for an honors level biology course."

Local papers report Zimmerman pulls a quote from page 319 in the book, Asking About Life, where creationism is described as, "the biblical myth that the universe was created by the Judeo-Christian God in 7 days."
2010-04-08, 9:30 AM #2
No wonder, it's in Knoxville, the land of the hillpeople.
2010-04-08, 9:37 AM #3
Calling the Bible a myth is kinda asking for trouble, don't you think? Is this a theology textbook?
Warhead[97]
2010-04-08, 9:51 AM #4
Why is your mom trying to kill God -________________________T ?????????
2010-04-08, 9:51 AM #5
I think that "myth" works quite well. I can't say that the definitions that I saw for the word via Google were controversial.

Quote:
Definitions of myth on the Web:

a traditional story accepted as history; serves to explain the world view of a people
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Myth was a warez group, focused on cracking and ripping PC games. Besides ripped games, the group also released trainers and cracked updates for games.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_(warez)
Myth ISBN 1843862670 is a dark erotic fantasy, the first novel by English writer R. J. Dent. It was published by Vanguard/Pegasus in July 2006.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_(novel)
Myth is a series of real-time tactics computer games. The games are: *Myth: The Fallen Lords *' *Myth III: The Wolf Age'
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_(series)
Continuously playing since its inception in 1990 makes The Myth one of the longest standing rock bands in Malta. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_(band)
The Myth is a 2005 Hong Kong film directed by Stanley Tong.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_(film)
Myth is a text adventure game by Magnetic Scrolls released in .
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_(1989_adventure_game)
The term mythology can refer to either the study of myths or a body of myths. For example, comparative mythology is the study of connections ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth
A traditional story which embodies a belief regarding some fact or phenomenon of experience, and in which often the forces of nature and of the ...
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/myth
mythic - relating to or having the nature of myth; "a novel of almost mythic consequence"
mythic - fabulous: based on or told of in traditional stories; lacking factual basis or historical validity; "mythical centaurs"; "the fabulous unicorn"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
mythic - myth-like; awe-inspiring; heroic
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mythic
An anonymous tale emerging from the traditional beliefs of a culture or social unit. Myths use supernatural explanations for natural phenomena. ...
[url]www.gale.cengage.com/free_resources/glossary/glossary_im.htm[/url]
Legendary narrative, usually of gods and heroes, or a theme that expresses the ideology of a culture.
[url]www.let.rug.nl/usa/LIT/chap10.htm[/url]
n. a traditional story, orally transmitted among the folk of the acts of gods and supernatural beings; a story of a mythology hero which served to explain actions of supernatural beings. For example, the myths of Jove, Venus and Hercules, have persisted in poetry.
station05.qc.ca/csrs/bouscol/anglais/book_report/glossary3.html


Edit: Whoops, dictionary.com isn't quite as flattering. :)

Quote:
myth   [mith] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, esp. one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature.
2.
stories or matter of this kind: realm of myth.
3.
any invented story, idea, or concept: His account of the event is pure myth.
4.
an imaginary or fictitious thing or person.
5.
an unproved or false collective belief that is used to justify a social institution.


However, I don't actually think that calling "Creationism" a "biblical myth" is offensive unless of course Christians also want to start accepting all other forms of creation stories from various other religious as something more than myth as well.
? :)
2010-04-08, 9:57 AM #6
You can argue the exact definition of myth which was intended, but the fact remains that it carries a negative connotation.

Anyway, the point is not the word usage, it's why a science textbook is talking about creationism. I think we've had this argument enough times to know that mixing these is a terrible terrible idea.
Warhead[97]
2010-04-08, 10:08 AM #7
I think that this guy would've been upset if they would've called it a "story" instead of a "myth" as well. You can't teach Western history w/o at least mentioning Christianity & their bible & I personally can't think of any other way of describing it. It seems to me like this is just the same type of people that get upset about the "theory" of evolution being taught to their children & they won't be satisfied until we pretend that creationism is a "theory" or "fact". If we simply didn't mention creationism in a biology class at all they'd be equally pissed & demand that it get its share of the time. I think that we need to just ignore these people & move on w/ educating our children.
? :)
2010-04-08, 10:10 AM #8
Go trolling for a fight and that's what you get. I wonder if it similarly disparages controversial scientific theories such as abiogenesis.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2010-04-08, 10:14 AM #9
Originally posted by Wookie06:
Go trolling for a fight and that's what you get. I wonder if it similarly disparages controversial scientific theories such as abiogenesis.

Most bio textbooks mention abiogenesis as an incomplete theory. I don't see how "similarly disparages" makes sense because creationism has no evidence where as abiogenesis has quite a bit.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2010-04-08, 10:14 AM #10
Originally posted by Mentat:
I think that this guy would've been upset if they would've called it a "story" instead of a "myth" as well. You can't teach Western history w/o at least mentioning Christianity & their bible & I personally can't think of any other way of describing it. It seems to me like this is just the same type of people that get upset about the "theory" of evolution being taught to their children & they won't be satisfied until we pretend that creationism is a "theory" or "fact". If we simply didn't mention creationism in a biology class at all they'd be equally pissed & demand that it get its share of the time.


You could refer to it as the world's most prominent religion and of course in whatever manner it relates to the historical events. With regards to a science text book it could be as simple as: "While some people believe that religious beliefs, such as Creationism, explain the origins of life the most commonly accepted scientific therory holds that..." or something to a similar effect.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2010-04-08, 10:16 AM #11
I'm not saying the guy is right, I'm saying that it's best to avoid the topic where it isn't completely relevant. You mention the people who complained that creationism was not mentioned...well, now it is, and people are still complaining, like you said. Don't try to appease people, just talk about biology in a biology book and let those that don't like it be wrong about what should be in a biology book.

Edit: Calling religion a myth in a science book is like Wookie calling Obama "Barack Hussein Obama"....it's technically correct, but it's asking for trouble.
Warhead[97]
2010-04-08, 10:17 AM #12
Originally posted by Emon:
Most bio textbooks mention abiogenesis as an incomplete theory. I don't see how "similarly disparages" makes sense because creationism has no evidence where as abiogenesis has quite a bit.


I disagree that there is quite a bit of evidence to support abiogenesis but that is fine. I'm not trying to debate the merrits of that theory. I wouldn't really expect a biology text book to refer highly to the theory anyway since it is essential to throw out biology principles in order to accept abiogenesis.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2010-04-08, 10:23 AM #13
Originally posted by Wookie06:
I disagree that there is quite a bit of evidence to support abiogenesis but that is fine.

By "quite a bit of evidence" I mean "more than a hypothesis."

Originally posted by Wookie06:
I wouldn't really expect a biology text book to refer highly to the theory anyway since it is essential to throw out biology principles in order to accept abiogenesis.

I really don't think you're qualified in any way to make that kind of statement.
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2010-04-08, 10:25 AM #14
To be fair this is really just a case of "don't believe everything you read".

Whilst I don't know anything about the US education system, I'd imagine that if you're smart enough to take "honours" biology then you're probably smart enough to not agree with every single printed word you read.
nope.
2010-04-08, 10:25 AM #15
Originally posted by BobTheMasher:
Anyway, the point is not the word usage, it's why a science textbook is talking about creationism. I think we've had this argument enough times to know that mixing these is a terrible terrible idea.

There's a chapter about the history of evolution. It's relevant information.
2010-04-08, 10:30 AM #16
Granted. That shifts the focus to word choice, which I still think is asking for trouble. It's a sensitive topic; it should be very carefully dealt with. Obviously (basset hound orphans) the wrong implication or inference can cause quite a problem.
Warhead[97]
2010-04-08, 10:41 AM #17
Originally posted by Emon:
I really don't think you're qualified in any way to make that kind of statement.


Well, considering the name of the theory is abiogenesis...
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2010-04-08, 10:58 AM #18
The fact that people still believe in some magicky fooffy wooffy all-powerful god in this day and age utterly bewilders me.
Was cheated out of lions by happydud
Was cheated out of marriage by sugarless
2010-04-08, 11:26 AM #19
i kinda hope this guy's kid grows up to be a gay satanist with a black muslim boyfriend

i have a feeling that would piss his dad off completely
eat right, exercise, die anyway
2010-04-08, 11:30 AM #20
A Muslim probably wouldn't be gay.
2010-04-08, 11:40 AM #21
I know it's almost as absurd as the thought of gay Christians or gay Jews but they do indeed exist.
? :)
2010-04-08, 11:43 AM #22
Originally posted by Wookie06:
Well, considering the name of the theory is abiogenesis...

...it means the formation of life from non-living matter. How does that mean throwing away the fundamentals of biology??
Bassoon, n. A brazen instrument into which a fool blows out his brains.
2010-04-08, 11:52 AM #23
Originally posted by BobTheMasher:
Granted. That shifts the focus to word choice, which I still think is asking for trouble. It's a sensitive topic; it should be very carefully dealt with. Obviously (basset hound orphans) the wrong implication or inference can cause quite a problem.


But "myth" is a perfectly accurate word (in fact, it's the correct word) for describing the stories of creation and gods' deeds of any religion. Christians resent Genesis being called myth only because it places Christianity on the same plane as all other religions--which is a move that you have to accept if you believe in the separation of church and state.
2010-04-08, 11:56 AM #24
The neutral word "belief" would really have worked a lot better there. I think banning the book is a little drastic, but it's easy to see why he's upset.

Then again, I'm wondering why a biology textbook needs to mention creationism at all.
If you think the waiters are rude, you should see the manager.
2010-04-08, 11:58 AM #25
Originally posted by BobTheMasher:
Calling religion a myth in a science book is like Wookie calling Obama "Barack Hussein Obama"....it's technically correct, but it's asking for trouble.


Just because it's technically accurate doesn't mean it's a smart thing to say for no good reason.
Warhead[97]
2010-04-08, 12:02 PM #26
The word "myth" was also used in reference to Plato elsewhere in the text

Should that also be changed to "belief?"
2010-04-08, 12:06 PM #27
Maybe. The thing is, there's not a lot of people who currently would be offended by "myth" in that context. Would belief be a better, more neutral term? Yes. Is it likely to matter? No. Is calling creationism a myth likely to matter? Yeah...i think common sense and DEFINITELY history tell us that it is.
Warhead[97]
2010-04-08, 12:09 PM #28
Originally posted by Mentat:
I know it's almost as absurd as the thought of gay Christians or gay Jews but they do indeed exist.


I knew they exist, but I think the number of Muslims that are gay is smaller than the number of Jews or Christians.
2010-04-08, 12:10 PM #29
Originally posted by 'Thrawn[numbarz:
;1074910']The word "myth" was also used in reference to Plato elsewhere in the text

Should that also be changed to "belief?"


In the US, land of the hypocrite: yes
He said to them: "You examine the face of heaven and earth, but you have not come to know the one who is in your presence, and you do not know how to examine the present moment." - Gospel of Thomas
2010-04-08, 12:19 PM #30
edit: Blerk, I believe religion is a poison to today's society. I think I'm not gonna get involved in this discussion, I'll just end up antagonizing people again. :P
Was cheated out of lions by happydud
Was cheated out of marriage by sugarless
2010-04-08, 12:27 PM #31
Oh, come on, I'll bet that we'd enjoy it. :)
? :)
2010-04-08, 12:31 PM #32
Explaining that god creating the world is a myth is no different than explaining that phlogiston doesn't really cause fires and rust. It's a corrected viewpoint relevant to something we used to believe because we didn't know any better.
>>untie shoes
2010-04-08, 12:39 PM #33
There was at least one fact in the video.

Quote:
"...I mean, I'm not smart enough to pick that stuff up....uh...they are...so...&...uh...they identified it & brought it forward to me...you know..."


Flattery works really well on this poor guy. He actually thinks he's a hero of some sort. If he only knew just how his stupidity makes us all stupid.
? :)
2010-04-08, 12:57 PM #34
Your moms an a-hole.

While I don't really care whether it bashes Christianity or not, I just don't think anything about religion should have been included in the book at all -- unless of course it talks about human cultures.
2010-04-08, 12:58 PM #35
i dont see why there is a real problem here. in the most direct sense of the word the creation story in Genisis IS a myth. granted it does come off as slightly condescending. however i would hope that if a parent is involved enough to know what their students textbook says, they would also be involved enough to talk to their kids about anything in it they find "contraversial". even just something as simple as "hey i noticed your textbook says ______, what do you think about that?" instead of following in the rather nazi like tradition of banning books.
Welcome to the douchebag club. We'd give you some cookies, but some douche ate all of them. -Rob
2010-04-08, 1:01 PM #36
Originally posted by 'Thrawn[numbarz:
;1074910']The word "myth" was also used in reference to Plato elsewhere in the text

Should that also be changed to "belief?"


Possibly. What's the context?

Not that I'm sure it would matter. The point of my suggestion is to avoid unnecessary offense, which isn't usually a concern when you're talking about Plato.
If you think the waiters are rude, you should see the manager.
2010-04-08, 1:14 PM #37
Originally posted by ELITE WARRIOR:
Your moms an a-hole.

While I don't really care whether it bashes Christianity or not, I just don't think anything about religion should have been included in the book at all -- unless of course it talks about human cultures.

It's a chapter about the Scopes trial
2010-04-08, 1:16 PM #38
Your mom's awesome. Fist-bump her for me.
"If you watch television news, you will know less about the world than if you just drink gin straight out of the bottle."
--Garrison Keillor
2010-04-08, 1:17 PM #39
Screw walking on eggshells to please the damned Christians, or Muslims, or whatever flipping religion/political party/whatever might get upset. Now, I'm not saying that one should go out of their way to anger them, but we shouldn't have to be so damned careful not to offend these people! I'm often offended by religious people. Do I ***** and complain about it? No! Is using the word 'myth' acceptable? Yes, because that's all it is. There is no proof whatsoever that Creationism is real; thus, myth.
"And lo, let us open up into the holy book of Proxy2..." -genk
His pot is blacker than his kettle!
2010-04-08, 1:21 PM #40
To the religious the fact that we exist is proof of creationism. You're argument has no gravity to people who disagree with you
12345

↑ Up to the top!