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Remember how Ron Paul is unelectable?
2012-01-31, 8:54 AM #281
Originally posted by Alco:
The point, is that you seem to continue to believe that this whole thing is a White vs Black and not the fact that both had members that were responsible for slavery and both had members that were responsible for helping to end it. It was the collective result of the evolving melting pot of cultures that ended slavery. This is the point I'm trying to get through, but obviously failing to do so. Do I have an idealistic viewpoint? Perhaps. The point is to not dwell on what happened in the past, or what you even perceive to be happening today, but to instead work towards a future where the color of your skin or even your country of origin doesn't matter. By living a life with that idealistic mindset, it's not ignorance, it's setting an example for others to follow.


What do you mean "believe in white vs black"? Whether I "believe" in racial disparity or not doesn't change the fact that equality clearly does not exist.

And while of course all blame can't be placed on white Europeans, when you examine the power relations between the European powers and the parts of Africa that slave trade happened: it's not hard to figure out why slavery was perpetuated.

The same applies to the logic of racism within places like the United States: the history is one of subjugation and oppression. This is a little fact that you seem to be wanting to overlook.

The "melting pot ended slavery" is not only a rosy picture of history but doesn't really make any sense, nor does it have any actual explanatory power in terms of accounting for how slavery was actually terminated in the United States (and especially not for other European countries where it doesn't even apply).

My problem with what you're saying isn't just that it's idealistic (although I do thing that's a problematic way to understand the world and history), but that your logic includes within it a type of "colorblind racism." (which is: "hey we're all equal now, so pointing out real disparities is just the act of the 'oppressed' complaining!" As you can see, this kind of logic itself ends up being quite racist).

As for the part of "dwelling on the past," haven't you heard the various cliches about why history is important? I.e. kind of explains the present and all that.

Quote:
I'm extremely liberal, yet I don't mind the government getting involved in our personal lives in order to keep us safe from terrorism. I'm also ok with racial profiling.


Thus you are also a racist.
2012-01-31, 9:18 AM #282
Originally posted by TSM_Bguitar:
Thus you are also a racist.


so how would one get statistics showing racial inequality without... racial profiling?
Welcome to the douchebag club. We'd give you some cookies, but some douche ate all of them. -Rob
2012-01-31, 9:40 AM #283
Originally posted by Jarl:
Unless it was a pun on "your highness", in which case we're in uncharted waters.


Then I guess we're sailing this ship blind!
>>untie shoes
2012-01-31, 11:26 AM #284
Originally posted by Darth_Alran:
so how would one get statistics showing racial inequality without... racial profiling?


In response to your use of "racial profiling" in this post:

Sorry, don't know how to play this video :(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk
2012-01-31, 7:10 PM #285
Originally posted by TSM_Bguitar:
My problem with what you're saying isn't just that it's idealistic (although I do thing that's a problematic way to understand the world and history), but that your logic includes within it a type of "colorblind racism." (which is: "hey we're all equal now, so pointing out real disparities is just the act of the 'oppressed' complaining!") As you can see, this kind of logic itself ends up being quite racist.


You are right about one thing, I do see the history and present from a colorblind perspective. What you continue to fail to realize is that bad people do bad things and good people do good things and it has nothing to do with the color of their skin. You take generalizations to a racist level. This all goes back to the original irony that I pointed out about how you said most blacks probably feel more African than American.

One last thing:
The majority of the "disparities" that exist are far more related to factors of economics than to race. You like to bring up statistics around race as a basis for your argument. What about statistics around age? What about statistics around those born into different economic classes? What about statistics around people with different eye colors? Do you think we wouldn't see any "disparities"? As long as you look for racism, there will always be racism...
2012-01-31, 7:45 PM #286
Except, Alco, those economic disparities also exist due to racial discrimination both in the past and still ongoing.
Snail racing: (500 posts per line)------@%
2012-01-31, 8:42 PM #287
Originally posted by Alco:
You are right about one thing, I do see the history and present from a colorblind perspective.


See, you could have just said from the beginning that you don't have a clue what's going on.
If you think the waiters are rude, you should see the manager.
2012-01-31, 8:45 PM #288
Originally posted by TSM_Bguitar:
In response to your use of "racial profiling" in this post:

Sorry, don't know how to play this video :(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk


Hehe, that made chuckle. Well played.
I disagree and think you may not like the way I used the phrase, ...but unless racial profiling means something other than profiling based on race...
Welcome to the douchebag club. We'd give you some cookies, but some douche ate all of them. -Rob
2012-01-31, 8:49 PM #289
Haha. Anyone who says they don't see race is a guilty racist.
>>untie shoes
2012-01-31, 9:03 PM #290
So is anyone actually claiming they don't see race?
Welcome to the douchebag club. We'd give you some cookies, but some douche ate all of them. -Rob
2012-01-31, 9:16 PM #291
Originally posted by Antony:
Haha. Anyone who says they don't see race is a guilty racist.


For what it matters, I only really care about race when it comes to pornography.

-I have what my grandmother used to refer to as "the fever".
2012-01-31, 9:30 PM #292
Originally posted by Darth_Alran:
So is anyone actually claiming they don't see race?


Alco says he sees history and the present from a colorblind perspective. This is something people like to say to absolve themselves of being racist, usually right after saying racist things.
>>untie shoes
2012-01-31, 10:57 PM #293
By the way, guys, Ron Paul and his 10 delegates are starting to look kind of unelectable.
>>untie shoes
2012-01-31, 11:22 PM #294
Originally posted by Antony:
Alco says he sees history and the present from a colorblind perspective. This is something people like to say to absolve themselves of being racist, usually right after saying racist things.


Lol, I completely missed that! Should probably start reading all posts... Hurp!
Welcome to the douchebag club. We'd give you some cookies, but some douche ate all of them. -Rob
2012-02-01, 6:34 AM #295
Originally posted by Alco:
You are right about one thing, I do see the history and present from a colorblind perspective. What you continue to fail to realize is that bad people do bad things and good people do good things and it has nothing to do with the color of their skin. You take generalizations to a racist level. This all goes back to the original irony that I pointed out about how you said most blacks probably feel more African than American.


Seeing history through a colorblind perspective is revisionist history at best. It ignores the structural origins of racism and how it actually functioned to create the social disparities between people with different skin colors (race being a social construct means that there was a social structure that lead to that construction).

How have I made racist generalizations? And when did I said that most blacks probably feel more African than American?

Quote:
One last thing:
The majority of the "disparities" that exist are far more related to factors of economics than to race. You like to bring up statistics around race as a basis for your argument. What about statistics around age? What about statistics around those born into different economic classes? What about statistics around people with different eye colors? Do you think we wouldn't see any "disparities"? As long as you look for racism, there will always be racism...


Of course it's about economics, I've brought this up before. I feel that the working class is inherently an exploited class, and part of that exploitation has been the promotion of racism in places like the South using the classic "divide and conquer" tactic. (I don't think it's that simple of course, although it certainly helps explain some of the class aspects of racism).

The eye color point is really a non-point. There are statistically significant disparities between blacks, latinos, and whites in terms of employment, access to health care, incarceration, etc. That's simply a fact. Now what that fact means is where politics come in: some people claim that this shows a natural disparity and those people are the racists. Other folks, like myself, will argue that those disparities are in fact the result of continued racist institutions and social structures and that those structures need to be combated. Folks adopting your logic tend to ignore the structures that lead to those disparities: believing that if we ignore the problem and pretend it doesn't exist that it will just go away.

Originally posted by Darth_Alran:
Hehe, that made chuckle. Well played.
I disagree and think you may not like the way I used the phrase, ...but unless racial profiling means something other than profiling based on race...


;)

Well in what sense did you mean to use the term then?
2012-02-01, 8:38 AM #296
Originally posted by Antony:
Haha. Anyone who says they don't see race is a guilty racist.


Why is it so difficult to accept that there is a growing population of people around the world who truly do not see "race"?

I'm a mix of a lot of different "races", so it ignorant to suggest that I'm racist.
2012-02-01, 9:36 AM #297
I don't accept that people claim to not see race because there are fundamental visual differences in people based on their race. Just because you don't care what race someone is doesn't mean you don't god damned notice. Hair color doesn't play a factor in how I feel about a person, but I still notice it for Christ's sake.

Saying that you aren't a racist because you're a particular race, or in this case, a particular combination of races, is even dumber than suggesting you don't see race.
>>untie shoes
2012-02-01, 9:52 AM #298
Originally posted by Alco:
I'm a mix of a lot of different "races", so it ignorant to suggest that I'm racist.
lol
2012-02-01, 9:55 AM #299
Also, everyone is racist. I'm going to get a head start on joncy saying that.
>>untie shoes
2012-02-01, 10:23 AM #300
Originally posted by TSM_Bguitar:
And when did I said that most blacks probably feel more African than American?

you said no such thing sir! that was mentat, lol.

Originally posted by TSM_Bguitar:
;)

Well in what sense did you mean to use the term then?

i still mean it in the same sense. if you are gathering information on the economic disparity between black and whites you are by necessity profiling based on race. in the case of, lets say profiling arab looking people at an air port, you are again profiling based on race(or at least attempting to). both have at their root, looking at someones race, making decisions and then taking actions based on that.
As crappy as it seems it really is a matter of the ends justifying the means. Also just to clarify i am not equating the two in any moral sense.
Welcome to the douchebag club. We'd give you some cookies, but some douche ate all of them. -Rob
2012-02-01, 11:12 AM #301
Alran, that's not what racial profiling is.

Racial profiling is where a cop or TSA official or whatever uses someone's race as a reason or factor in bringing someone under suspicion or taking action against them as opposed to basing their suspicion upon behaviour or body language. E.g. in the UK, increased targetting of black youths for stop-and-search by police officers.

It results in people experiencing harassment and embarassment in a way that their peers of another race don't.

Gathering statistics that include race is not the same as taking action against someone based on their race. One is just acknowledging that race exists; the other is actively racist.
2012-02-01, 11:23 AM #302
I think maybe racial profiling happens in the US because of how Arab dudes seem to do a lot more terrorizin' around here.
>>untie shoes
2012-02-01, 11:40 AM #303
I think maybe racial profiling happens in the US because it is one of those things that usually happens while a country is sliding backwards into fascism.
2012-02-01, 11:44 AM #304
At this point hasn't the US already slid into fascism?
2012-02-01, 12:17 PM #305
Originally posted by Jon`C:
I think maybe racial profiling happens in the US because it is one of those things that usually happens while a country is sliding backwards into fascism.


That too.
>>untie shoes
2012-02-01, 12:21 PM #306
Originally posted by Tibby:
At this point hasn't the US already slid into fascism?


:rolleyes:

did you get a tingle when you typed that? did a smug chuckle escape?
2012-02-01, 2:07 PM #307
Originally posted by saberopus:
:rolleyes:

did you get a tingle when you typed that? did a smug chuckle escape?


hey hey! give him a break. hes had a rough couple days.

Originally posted by Recusant:
Alran, that's not what racial profiling is.

Racial profiling is where a cop or TSA official or whatever uses someone's race as a reason or factor in bringing someone under suspicion or taking action against them as opposed to basing their suspicion upon behaviour or body language. E.g. in the UK, increased targetting of black youths for stop-and-search by police officers.

It results in people experiencing harassment and embarassment in a way that their peers of another race don't.

Gathering statistics that include race is not the same as taking action against someone based on their race. One is just acknowledging that race exists; the other is actively racist.


yes... very good. i know what that is. im an ass not an idiot. :P

while what im talking about may not be what is thought of when someone uses the phrase "racial profiling" it is still in a strict way... racial profiling.
Welcome to the douchebag club. We'd give you some cookies, but some douche ate all of them. -Rob
2012-02-01, 6:08 PM #308
Originally posted by Antony:
I don't accept that people claim to not see race because there are fundamental visual differences in people based on their race. Just because you don't care what race someone is doesn't mean you don't god damned notice. Hair color doesn't play a factor in how I feel about a person, but I still notice it for Christ's sake.


Correction, you can see the color of someone's skin and not discriminate against them because of their race. You took my comment way too literal instead of the common interpretation in this type of discussion.
2012-02-01, 6:53 PM #309
Originally posted by Alco:
Correction, you can see the color of someone's skin and not discriminate against them because of their race. You took my comment way too literal instead of the common interpretation in this type of discussion.


This is a different thing than "not seeing race" which of course doesn't really exist under capitalism. Steven Colbert does an excellent parody of color blindness of course, pointing out its absurdity.

As for the OP and the topic of Ron Paul's racism, if this turns out to be true, it will probably end the Ron Paul meme:
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/02/01/ron-paul-exposed-as-white-supremacist-by-anonymous/

Quote:
And it looks like the jig is officially up. Hackivist group Anonymous has announced that not only have they decimated the websites of avowed White Supremacist group American Third Position (A3P) during Operation Blitzkrieg but, in the process, they claim to have accidentally uncovered close ties between the racist group and Ron Paul. Not just the Ron Paul campaign, but Ron Paul himself.
[CENTER]
[/CENTER] [LEFT] [/LEFT]From the announcement page:
[INDENT]Fellow anons: we are pleased to bring you the dismantling of a major US-based
white supremacist network known as the “American Third Position”(A3P). These
racist losers have chapters across the US, operate several white power websites,
forums and online stores, and are even running a candidate in the 2012
elections. Although they try hard to maintain a professional public image to
camouflage their vile racism, we’re now airing all their dirty laundry all over
the internet. Contained in this major dump are several thousand private forum
messages, personal emails, internal organization notes, names, phone numbers,
home addresses and other information on all of their members and supporters.
It’s time for these cowardly suit and tie white supremacists to sleep with one
eye open. Scared much?
In addition to finding the usual racist rants and interactions with other white
power groups, we also found a disturbingly high amount of members who are also involved in campaigning for Ron Paul. According to these messages, Ron Paul has regularly met with many A3P members, even engaging in conference calls with their board of directors. Ron Paul’s racist politics and affiliations are already well known, being viciously anti-immigrant, anti-abortion and against gay marriage — not to mention having authored the racist “Ron Paul Papers” and receiving financial support from other white power groups (pictured with Don Black from stormfront.org). Hard to believe Ron Paul draws some support from the left and the occupation movements, especially now that it is confirmed Ron Paul hangs out with straight up racist hate groups.
We put extra effort in ruining the life of A3P webmaster Jamie Kelso. On top of
being on the board of directors of A3P, former $cientologist, and high ranking
Ron Paul organizer, he also is the account owner of german nazi forums and store nsl-forum.org, rhs-versand.com. We went ahead and wiped those websites off the internet as well, dumping private messages and order information. Aside from us releasing his information such as his social security number, address, resume and private discussions, we also heard some folks went on a joyride with Kelso’s credit card and made some lulzy purchases, including sex toy purchases and making donations to the Anti Defamation League and many others. Oops.
We call upon not only other antifascists but all those opposed to white
supremacy to utilize this information and make hell for these white nationalist
scumbags. It is essential if we wish to live in a world free from oppression to
expose and confront racists at their jobs, their schools, at their homes and in
the streets.
No Dialogue! No sympathy! Destroy White Supremacy!
[/INDENT] Anonymous is not known for hoaxes about this sort of thing and there is a large amount of information on the page to sort through. If this is confirmed then that would the end of the Ron Paul phenomena among the Left. It will impossible for any self-respecting liberal to overlook such a connection no matter how much they want marijuana legalized. Nothing justifies willingly associating with White Supremacists.
More on this story as it develops.
2012-02-01, 7:58 PM #310
Haha, wow. Never ceases to amaze me how radical those guys are.
ORJ / My Level: ORJ Temple Tournament I
2012-02-01, 7:59 PM #311
Originally posted by Alco:
Correction, you can see the color of someone's skin and not discriminate against them because of their race. You took my comment way too literal instead of the common interpretation in this type of discussion.


Oh, so you do see skin color, but you claim that you do not discriminate at all based on that. So not only are you a racist, but you're a liar.
>>untie shoes
2012-02-01, 8:31 PM #312
You know what really tickles me? Is that the liberals are the "Side that's not affiliated with white supremacy movements".

-Because it kinda only leaves one option for the right.
2012-02-02, 5:04 AM #313
Originally posted by Antony:
Oh, so you do see skin color, but you claim that you do not discriminate at all based on that. So not only are you a racist, but you're a liar.


I do not discriminate at all based on the color pigmentation of someone's skin. Just like I don't discriminate against someone based on their hair, eye, or any other characteristic. That's just absolutely silly. We're all one race with an intriguing diversity of cultures. Again, why is that so difficult to understand?
2012-02-02, 5:10 AM #314
Far as I see it, you're not really another race unless you're getting level adjustment.

-I mean, there's some questionable passive bonuses, but those are more Background Feats than full on racial traits. Show me a person walking around with a natural attack and some spell like abilities and we can talk about judging people by their Race.
2012-02-02, 8:13 AM #315
Uh. When RPGs use the word 'race' they usually mean species. Specieism is something we are all guilty of.
2012-02-02, 9:27 AM #316
Originally posted by JM:
Uh. When RPGs use the word 'race' they usually mean species. Specieism is something we are all guilty of.
Actually in e.g. TES they really do mean race.
2012-02-02, 10:35 AM #317
Originally posted by Alco:
I do not discriminate at all based on the color pigmentation of someone's skin. Just like I don't discriminate against someone based on their hair, eye, or any other characteristic. That's just absolutely silly.


Is it? I treat people with red hair differently because there have been studies that say redheads feel pain more acutely than people with other hair colors.

How do you feel about statistics? If statistics say that white people are different than black people in some way, is it just that the stats are racist?

Regardless of whether the difference was originally caused by racism, there is still a difference..

Obviously it's important to form your opinion of an individual on a case-by-case basis. Not saying it isn't.

Still.. to me, it's pretty stupid to try to think we're all one, big, happy family. Every single person on earth is different. We all have different personalities, and we may well be born with them, like race. Does this mean, then, that if I prefer to hang out with people of a particular personality, that I am a personality-ist?
"it is time to get a credit card to complete my financial independance" — Tibby, Aug. 2009
2012-02-02, 12:03 PM #318
Originally posted by Freelancer:
We all have different personalities, and we may well be born with them, like race. Does this mean, then, that if I prefer to hang out with people of a particular personality, that I am a personality-ist?


No, it just means you're a liar if you say you don't discriminate.
>>untie shoes
2012-02-03, 8:35 AM #319
This is where a fundamental issue of racism is important to clarify though: Whether Alco discriminates on a personal level, or holds certain prejudices based on skin color or not ought to be understood in the broad social context. The whole "well I treat people X or Y way" is a very ideologically loaded way of understanding how the world works.

So if Alco is an average worker in a large workplace, for example: then that racism will manifest itself in a certain way/have certain kinds of consequences that are separate from an Alco who is the boss of a company who decides to promote racism in the workplace for leverage against all workers.

Granted my Leftism and interest in workers' struggles is shining through here, but racism is, as I've emphasized before, a structural issue not a matter of personal emotional feeling. So if we look at the overall disparities in the United States in terms of race, it's not just because of personal emotional feeling, but is an institutional problem.

This is the best way to be an anti-racist: fighting the institutions that perpetuate those/their own structures. Not that personal racism is permissible of course.
2012-02-03, 11:30 AM #320
honestly this is one of the reasons i stick around massassi, amazingly enough i learn stuff here.
i think there is a great deal of misunderstanding and ignorance among the general public surrounding institutionalized racism and affirmative action. it also seems like there is a lot of resentment and blame being tossed around by both sides... BOTH sides, that is hindering lasting progress from being made.

im going to be honest, i STILL don't fully understand affirmative action. there is a lot of seemingly contradictory information out and about on it. but this thread has actually prompted me to find out more about it rather than just wave it off and say "seem like 'reverse discrimination' to me"
Welcome to the douchebag club. We'd give you some cookies, but some douche ate all of them. -Rob
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