I actually liked Reloaded, although it certainly set the stage for Revolutions, which was a let down (compared to the first movie).

I think the biggest problem with the Matrix sequels is that they're extremely heavy on visual symbolism (e.g. Hundreds of Smiths, unchecked authority, etc...) but we're never given any kind of practical information.

Okay, so Smith is now free and while he has maintained his tireless devotion to tracking down and killing Neo, he no longer has an actual reason to do so. He's mad at him, and that's enough. He's a program doing things as a result of his feelings, and it's screwing up the system. I like the idea that the world is built like a computer system with various conditions, save for the caveat that Neo does not have to recognize the limits of it in any way. His breaking of the rules is what causes the system to start going haywire and as a result it pretty much needs a clean install to fix it.

Still, why in he hell can Smith copy himself?

The same goes for all of the new stuff, from vampires, the hallways of doors, to just the fact that programs are actually personified. I get that these things are just there, but we're never really informed of why. Werewolves are there because there was a program doing something it wasn't supposed to.

Okay, like what, and why does it make them a werewolf?

It kinda comes off as the cinematic equivalent of a bunch of sentence fragments.

The coolest thing about Reloaded is that it brings up a lot of very cool ideas, but then Revolutions never goes anywhere with them.

It just tells you things and then those things just are. It's not even like Rey pulling Luke's lightsaber toward her or mind tricking the stormtrooper. We know those things are force powers. It's how the movie shows us that she is.

We're able to see that she's a burgeoning Jedi-to-be from these events.

What the hell does anyone gain from vampires and so on being in the Matrix? This is brought up exactly twice and never mentioned again. Was it so Persephone could shoot one in the head? That doesn't make much sense. Or is it just to offer a thin explanation as to why it takes Neo ten minutes go kill them all instead of six seconds?

Bear in mind, this is not an indictment of not explaining things, but it's just so pointless to put it in there. It comes off like a setup for the next movie, but it just fades into the mix.

I agree with that. Maybe you're right that they shouldn't have filmed them back-to-back, since that would explain why they seem to have ran out of steam and just decided to end it.

Mad Max Fury Road earned an Oscar nomination for best picture, which I'm really happy about because it's one of my favorite movies of recent years. Your complaints remind me of just one of the really cool aspects of Mad Max: the world building via casual views of things that are left at that.

Edit: Just to clarify, I see the difference to what you (Antony) are talking about with regard to the Matrix sequels, I was just reminded of Mad Max anyway.

Yeah there's definitely a difference. Probably has a lot to do with the fact that George Miller has been making great movies longer than either of us have been alive, and is pretty much a master storyteller at this point.

It's weird how Miller can throw something innocuous in there and it amounts to excellent world building, yet something similar can come off as a dead end. It really emphasizes how easy it is to miss the mark.

I didn't like this movie at all really. I liked the first half and the new cast and new characters, but there was waaaayyy too much reddit/guardians of the galaxy humor going on and Han Solo felt out of character.

Rey was too overpowered. Finn is just confusing. So he is a janitor who was taken on an assault mission who is also mentally programmed to obey orders?

But I will admit this movie can only be judged by its sequels and how it lays the foundation for them however from experience and seeing what JJ did with ripping off the Wrath of Khan shamelessly I bet anything Ep8 will be ESB all over again with Kylo literally telling Rey "Luke is your father" after cutting off her hand. It'll literally be that shameless and horrible.

Also the music was beyond disappointing. Either William's age is finally showing or someone else wrote it under his name to sell more soundtracks.

From what I saw in this thread most peopled liked it a lot so you guys can commence calling me an angry nerd, but I really am not I can see this movie only exists to make money by shamelessly exploiting nostalgia and has nothing original about it.

I initially left the film saying I had mixed feelings but as we ate dinner afterward we concluded that we didn't like the film. There was just so much more wrong with the movie than there was right and the things that were right were very small, nothing significant at all. Every other film in the series has strong pluses to counter the negatives so while some people might not like a movie such as TPM or AotC at least there was something to find in the film to like. That's how I feel about it. Now that the initial viewing is over I think I'll enjoy it more later but I definitely agree with Couchman.

My ten year old liked it, though.

Don't be ridiculous, Couchman. Being bad at watching movies doesn't mean you're an angry nerd. You can just as easily be bad at watching movies if you're a retired soldier.

To me it really seems like it's the angry nerds that like the new film. Almost that there is a prerequisite that you're pissed off at Lucas and LOVE the new film. This new movie is not so terrific to deserve the praise it has received. It's most likely not as bad as you think I think it is but it's not that good either.

What is 'reddit humor' and how is it used in TFA?

"Who talks first, me or you"

Han Solo using the crossbow and saying "I like this!"

Finn saying dumb stuff to Phasma about "Yeah were in control now" when they have her hostage at the end

Too much trying to rip off the Guardians of the Galaxy vibe, but I really hated that movie so maybe that's why I'm biased in the first place. I don't know, I always felt the originals had a somewhat serious tone about them except for RotJ which I don't like for that same reason. Star Wars should be a fun adventure but it shouldn't be that light it takes me out of the film for some reason.

I wouldn't say that's reddit humor. I would imagine reddit humor would be, I dunno, inwardly more circle-jerky? Makes looking at (or scrolling through) the comment sections of that site oddly painful. The parsec line was probably the flattest joke of the movie, imo.

Maybe that new Deadpool movie is more "reddit humor"-lined or at least the marketing section of the film is.

Well, that's about as inane as I could have expected on both counts.

Couchman at least scores points by shedding light on why he is bad at watching movies.

Wookie, on the other hand, gives us some really great dismissive handwaving bull****. Knew we could count on you, big guy.

I'll say it's even money that wookie just hates that the heroes are a girl and a black guy.

Actually, those two characters were the least offensive.

wow rose tinted glasses. ANH and ESB were overloaded with goofy moments.

Ohh that Couchman!

We need to keep this board open for the next 10 years, since it'll probably be at least that long before you all admit that you give a pass to the mistakes of the original trilogy because of nostalgia.

I like the original trilogy better because it's something special that I grew up with.

That said, I am wondering a bit about the music in the new film. I hardly noticed it at all, whereas the music was already a huge reason for my attachment to SW, starting with that sunset on Tatooine in ANH.

No she just grew too powerful too fast contradicting what we've seen established in a franchise of 6 films and countless other media. Boyega was also selected purely because hes of African descent. That being said, they gave good performances and deserve all of our respect. Of course, Rey could be a Revan situation which I would love and would apologize for every criticism I made about her being overpowered since it was actually part of her character (memory wipe etc)



I agree, and I don't enjoy them. RotJ is average or below average. ESB really annoys me with C3PO and R2D2 doing their shtick at the end when they're chasing after Boba or escaping. It really almost ruins those scenes.



Its half nostalgia, half analytical. I'm more self aware that I get credit for. But yes lets talk the music, did Williams actually write that forgettable trash? Rey's theme was alright but its like he thought he was scoring a Harry Potter movie, Kylo's was alright too. They honestly should have had Giacchino do it since respects the old famous material and adds new great themes (see Star Trek, Jurassic World).

It's almost like they're suggesting something about the force becoming stronger, or... Awakening?

Also, I'm glad you're able to piece together that John Boyega was picked purely for his ethnicity. It's hard to believe no one has ever suggested that we judge people not by the color of their skin, but the content of their character.

In modern-day America?

Please.

Luke's skill progression in the original trilogy:

About a day and a half aftern meeting Obi Wan and learning that the force even exists, he expertly pilots a craft he has never even seen before through a barrage of both artillery and highly skilled enemy fighter pilots, including evading the best pilot in the history of the galaxy because his half-wit friend managed to sneak up on him. He then wills a torpedo into a hole that is less than ten feet wide while flying at breakneck speed.

Fast forward, since the guy who told him a few things about the force is dead, Luke had apparently sat around and thought about it long enough that he can figure out that he's able to move objects with his mind, since no one has done this in front of him or indicated that it is in any way possible. He does this before training with Yoda, who teaches him nothing whatsoever about combat, but stresses the metaphysical importance of self control.

Luke immediately and completely ignored all of this to go fight his dad, who is also the most powerful Jedi in the history of the galaxy, and he kinda holds his own for a bit, even lands a blow or two before being handed his ass.

So then I guess he thinks about it for a while longer and buys some black clothes, because the only other training he gets is Yoda being mad that his dad told him the truth and subsequently dying, Obi Wan telling him he has a sister, but ignore it, and fighting and beating the hell out of his dad after he gets mad.

So let's recount. Luke receives almost no actual training whatsoever. He is never shown a thing about how to use a lightsaber, and he pretty much manages to figure all this **** out on his own.

And you're mad that a girl who has fought to survive on literally every day of her life is able to beat some ass in a fight? Yeah, I really can't imagine where she could have ever developed the attitude that she's gotta make something happen to stay alive, or that maybe the way the world works isn't what she thought. I mean, she was just told earlier that the way the world works isn't what she thought, and that she can do special things if she tries.

BUT IT SHOULD HAVE TAKEN HER LONGER!!!!

Why? Would it have been better for her to have her first fight in the second movie, so you can complain that it's too much like The Empire Strikes Back?

Like, what do you imagine the odds are that everyone would think Rey is just super badass and didn't progress too quickly if she were maybe a he, and by that I mean if she had a penis, like all of the people who don't like her?

Are you copying all of this from your tumblr account? I hope my micro-aggressions didn't invade your safe space.



You are confusing two separate things go read my post on the Lucas White Slaver thread, he is a good actor and did a good job with the part, but the concept art for the character portrayed him as white, then you have JJ who has previously dropped quotes like this:

"You look around the room and see the whitest ****ing room in history of time. It's just unbelievably white. And I thought, we're casting this show and have an opportunity to do anything we want, why not just cast the show with actors of color?" - J. J. Abrams

JJ specifically set out to cast a black actor. Am I the racist for pointing out that he wouldn't accept whites for the role that didn't necessarily need to be any specific race in the first place? He did it to appeal to African Americans (solely to make money off of their demographic) just like George brought in Billy Dee Williams and then Samuel L Jackson. Also fine actors regardless. But watch closely, Disney will make sure he doesn't have as prominent of a role in the next film because he wasn't well received in China (they even shrunk him in the poster before) who is their largest overseas market and because his toys aren't selling, which many are reporting and which I have seen in my own eyes.

Disney doesn't care about JJ's multicultural fantasy. They only want to make money. Look at the difference between the budget/box office rations of The Princess and the Frog (black Disney princess) and Frozen (two white Disney princesses). Those numbers alone make me willing to bet my life that Disney and JJ fought to the bitter end over casting a black man as Finn. They probably didn't want to lose JJ as a director so they conceded to him.

You can now begin with your "but y-your a mean white guy for using economic logic and not being the racist NPR told me you are!"



Luke was already an established pilot and marksman in the cockpit (beggars canyon + wamp rats), its not like he just did something crazy like hop in the Falcon for the first time and evade Tie Fighters while flying through a Star Destroyer engine. There was no mention she ever had any formal pilot training as far as I remember. Also Vader was toying with Luke that whole duel to break his spirit and take him alive, he wasn't even trying where as Kylo clearly was trying to kill Rey and take the lightsaber. Its not the fact that she won a fight, its the fact she won a fight against a force user who had been training for years.

To try and hint that my and other fan's dissatisfaction stems from misogyny is pathetic reasoning, one of the most popular characters from outside the OT is Mara Jade. Also Revan is canonically female and lots of fans are asking for a movie about the character.

Don't do this.

Forgive me, I felt the accusations against me were simply juvenile so I had to respond in that manner.

I might be wrong, but if Finn has less of a role in Ep8 I hope you all can at least accept reality and realize the casting was just a battle between Disney's lust for money and JJ's desire to make a political statement. JJ won for now.

With that said, I hope Boyega continues to do a good job and becomes a memorable part of the franchise.

Oh, no. It's fine.

You did everything you had to in order to establish that you're a racist.

Favorite part: It makes you mad that the character was white in concept art, but they cast a black guy to play him.

Tell me more about how you're not a racist.

Oh god, I bet you refer to yourself as an "egalitarian" don't you?

Oh Massassi

Am I missing something? All I read is that Disney originally planned to cast a white actor, which isn't a secret, and that Disney may make a profit-maximizing decision to stop marketing an unpopular character, which they will, regardless of gender or race, because they are a publicly traded corporation.

I mean, yeah, a black action figurine isn't going to sell in Mainland China. China is horrendously racist against black people. Black people are offensive in feng shui, they call them black ghosts and believe they will unbalance your humors or something. So a corporation interested in maximizing international profits is probably not going to put a lot of money into a black character.

Blame Mao and the cultural revolution for China being an imbecilic flaming garbage heap of a country. Or maybe blame Disney if they don't put a foot down about it. But don't blame someone for pointing out facts. It's not couchmans fault we live in the worst of all possible worlds.

What?

He has a problem with the fact that JJ Abrams decided to cast a black actor in a role that was originally envisioned as a white guy.

Everything about him having a minimal role in the future is pure baseless conjecture and nothing more.

Furthermore, there is nothing to suggest that toys based on Finn aren't selling well. All of the controversy surrounding that scenario is that executives at Disney didn't want a lot of toys based on the film's central protagonist because it's a girl. This has been rectified.

There was talk about how they thought Kylo Ren would be more popular as a toy than he is, but I'm honestly having a hard time understanding why they'd think that a furious post-adolescant that murders his father in cold blood would be the totally rad Christmas toy.

Sold assloads of chrome stormtroopers, though. New Boba Fett? Mission accomplished.

So disregard the central protagonist, create a character purely to sell toys, enrage nerds.

Pretty much covers all the bases.

Plot twist: None of this actually has anything to do with whether the movie is good, unless your white pride is hurt by the brown skin guy who only finds himself when he removes the white armor he's been forced to wear.

That mass email was a terrible mistake

I never said I was mad about it though. I could care less who plays the character. But now I have to ask: Do you also call blacks racist when they complain about non blacks taking "black roles" like when Rami Malek (an Egyptian-american actor) played a pharaoh in Night of the Museum? Or when the cast of Exodus God's and Kings was panned for being "too white" to be ancient Egypt? If you don't also criticized these people then it appears YOU are the racist for justifying treating one group of people different than another.

It really astonishes me that instead of accepting the fact Disney won't pander to 12% of the population (the majority of whom probably aren't Star Wars fans since there was never much of an African American representation to begin with) you would call me a racist and shut yourself out from the truth that money is king in our society.

If I am the punching bag you need to keep living in your delusion keep swinging buddy.



Very nicely written. These are just the honest to god economic facts. I am a scientist, I just report what I see, people get too emotional over this crap. They pretend that if they close their eyes and ears and scream racist enough all of these problems will go away. Antony is welcome to blame communist china, blame Disney's profit motive, but don't blame me.

White men playing middle-easterners is akin to a black guy playing a guy who wears white armor? Good to know.

Nice suggestion that black people don't like Star Wars because there aren't very many black people in it, though. What I still don't understand is your suggestion that Disney is somehow against John Boyega being black and in the movie. There has been literally nothing to support this claim whatsoever. There's no rumor of him having a smaller role or anything of that nature. Yes, the Chinese poster for the film is pretty much racism by exclusion, but I'll give you a few guesses as to who designs the posters for the Chinese market...

And here's the thing, bud, I don't think that if I call you a racist that the problem is suddenly going to go away. I'm just calling you a racist because you're a racist. There's really nothing more to it. Way to complain that casting a black actor was totally arbitrary and bla bla liberals, but back off when someone suggests you're a racist ******** for holding that view.

So, Couch Man is mad that Finn was white in some of the visual development art and now isn't.

Is he equally mad that Poe Dameron was black in some of the visual development art and now isn't?

Does Couch Man know what visual development art is for?

The galaxy may never know

Did you know Han Solo was a green alien in the original concept art? I can't believe Lucas made him a human. Zero integrity.

Once again, I never said I was mad at all. The more you two keep trying to strawman me on that the more invalid your words become. I know what developmental art is for. THAT IS MY WHOLE POINT. I didn't know Poe Dameron was originally black either but thank you for further proving my entire point. Did you know he was supposed to die in the initial crash on Jakku then his role was expanded?

Gosh I wonder why Disney was OK with casting a black guy as long as they stereotypically died first. Oh wait he is in longer? Better get a white guy then!



Yes and his wife and Gary Kurtz talked him out of this stupid stuff. They probably said something like "Hey the audience will relate and connect with a human character more easily than this stupid lizard"

Fast forward to 2012 after Disney acquires the rights to Star Wars: "Hey draw up the main cast and make them white guys since historically demographics have shown white people watch Star Wars more and we can appeal to a larger percent of the population to maximize our profits foreign and domestic"

I've never met more delusional people. Is it that hard to accept that Disney calculated that white people consume Star Wars media more than black people? Wouldn't it make sense that a soulless money machine would make decisions based on profit and not racial justice?

Oh and also there is no cure for AIDS which is a deadly syndrome that people die from every year, sorry to tell you something horrible and truthful. AIDS is also most prevalent in the homosexual community and the black community. Please call me a racist and a homophobe for pointing out this statistical fact based on numbers and peer reviewed research.

Oscar Isaac is Hispanic.

So what if he was cast because he is black? Perhaps Billy Dee Williams and Samuel Jackson were as well. In the six previous films there have been two main characters that were black. One occupied 1/3 of the episodes and the other 1/2. Assuming Boyega makes it through three films and no other main characters that are black are introduced, a big assumption, three actors will have 1/3, 1/3, and 2/9 of the films covered. Of course Star Wars (retconned to ANH) had no black characters that I can recall so that film probably wouldn't go over well with Will Smith if it were released today. Star Wars has been very light on black characters so perhaps that adds to some people shock when they see one. All of this seems very odd to me.

Sad that his acting skills aren't being talked about at all. Boyega's, not Couchman's. I thought he did a pretty good job. The disrespect to the original characters is what I mostly have a problem with.

Besides, I really expect all of my Stormtroopers to have more of a Pacific Islander vibe.