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ForumsDiscussion Forum → Americans are at it again!
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Americans are at it again!
2016-07-07, 10:39 PM #41
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
I think the NRA needs to go back to it's roots, when they supported gun control in response to open-carrying Black Panthers.
lol. And when the Republicans supported it.

Originally posted by Reid:
I don't have a television, what's going on?


Black male at Dallas protest killed 4 police, wounded 7 more. Sniper. They caught him.
2016-07-07, 10:42 PM #42
Oh well that's not good.
2016-07-07, 10:46 PM #43
Originally posted by Reid:
Oh well that's not good.


pretty much, yeah.
2016-07-08, 1:24 PM #44
Originally posted by Reid:
I don't have a television, what's going on?


Because television is the only place to acquire news?
TAKES HINTS JUST FINE, STILL DOESN'T CARE
2016-07-08, 5:59 PM #45
Under other circumstances, I could imagine the NRA describing the Dallas incident as: "An armed citizen exercises his Second Amendment right and strikes back at agents of a tyrannical government that oppresses his fellow citizens."

...except he's black and was responding to violence against blacks. Certainly a despicable act, and I pray we don't see more murder, riots, terrorism, etc. But the NRA's silence until recently is remarkably hypocritical.

Incidentally, I am concerned about the following scenario: One or both law enforcement officers (LA, MN) are acquitted (as similar previous cases suggest they will be). Frustrated, angry, scared supporters riot. Images in the media of civil unrest and opportunists using this as cover for crime/looting, perhaps with more violence against law enforcement by minorities, play into racist elements of Trump's campaign support.

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-silence-and-violence-of-the-n-r-a
Cordially,
Lord Tiberius Grismath
1473 for '1337' posts.
2016-07-08, 8:27 PM #46
I'm still surprised that people are not addressing the root of a lot of the issues in this country, which is a very large mental health issue.
Bad Cops = Mental Health issue. My brother is an example of someone who shouldn't be a cop. Anyone who has a controlling and/or hot tempered personality has no place as a cop.
Drug Abuse = Mental Health issue. Drug abuse should never have been treated as a crime. A system that has a more harsh punishment for a drug user than a drug dealer is a backwards system. The money we spend on incarceration and clogging up the judicial system we could spend on Mental Health (not just rehab) as part of public health and safety.
Gun Violence = Mental Health issue. Much of this starts with families. Families need to do a better job of identifying when a member has a gun (or especially an arsenal) and becomes reclusive and/or has hate filled rants about the government, race, etc. and either try to get them to seek counseling or (if they refuse) notify the authorities to monitor their activities. This is an ethical responsibility that we have to society and perhaps it's time we have punishments for family members who don't come forward when they know there is an issue.

The war on drugs must come to an end. It's like we're just intentionally ignoring the lessons learned by prohibition. Which begs the questions of why? We also need to rethink the ghettos. Grouping economically disparaged individuals together, while easy to police, does not provide a proper environment for childhood development.

I'm sure there's much more, but these would be great starting points to really make significant headway towards solving many of the problems that we have.
2016-07-08, 9:44 PM #47
Alco, many of the things you categorize as a mental health issue, I would call ordinary failings unworthy of a label. Furthermore, even if we go with this label, is there much more we can do short of restricting access to the weapons altogether? You can't fix stupid.

If I can be glib, though, I would certainly classify America's boundless love for firearms as a collective mental health issue.
2016-07-08, 11:46 PM #48
Originally posted by Roger Spruce:
Because television is the only place to acquire news?


I don't have internet either
2016-07-08, 11:58 PM #49
High taxes? Mental health issue. Only a crazy person could devise alternative minimum tax.

Obesity epidemic? Mental health issue. They're cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs!

Zika virus? Small heads could be more likely to have mental health issues?
Cordially,
Lord Tiberius Grismath
1473 for '1337' posts.
2016-07-09, 12:00 AM #50
If everyone is sick, nobody is culpable.
2016-07-09, 5:36 AM #51
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Alco, many of the things you categorize as a mental health issue, I would call ordinary failings unworthy of a label. Furthermore, even if we go with this label, is there much more we can do short of restricting access to the weapons altogether? You can't fix stupid.


Hrm, perhaps you made your own point. Let me spell it out.

Bad Cop - Controlling/Hot Tempered personalities - Personality traits are psychological and can often be corrected with therapy, but at minimum we can disqualify them from becoming a cop.
Drug Abuse - Drugs cause a chemical change in your brain, creating an obsessive psychological dependency on the drug.
Gun Violence - It's easy to follow a dark path down the internet and get brain washed by various conspiracy theories or ideologies.

In short the root of all of these issues can be resolved by the Mental Health system.

If we end the war on drugs, we can divert those funds to provide such mental health services at no cost. Have cops instead concentrate on removing the drug dealers. In time, you'll have significantly less crime that was drug related (even theft is largely drug related as it's a way of raising money for drugs). You'll immediately have lower incarceration rates but even more so over time. You'll have one less economic deterrent (no longer wasting money on drugs) for low income individuals. You'll have less opportunities for the cops to interact with minority communities in a negative way. Combine that with better screening of police applicants and you should statistically have less police shootings. Then what's left is for families to do a better job of policing other family members who seem to be becoming radicalized. The last one is very tough and needs to be handled carefully as to not unjustly take away someone's rights. But families are the first to know when something isn't right with another family member and can act more aggressively to try and get them help or to alert authorities to a possible issue.
2016-07-09, 7:01 AM #52
It's idealistic to think that you'd be able to bring about the necessary changes to remove the cultural stigma associated with mental health issues, successfully increase the availability to mental health to the point that it's truly pervasive (no more shortage of pyschiatrists and QUALIFIED therapists), and actually make all of these problems just disappear with these actions.

I feel very strongly about the state of mental healtcare in the United States, but it's not as simple as "make it better," and it's not a lightswitch that you turn on and suddenly these issues go away. There will always be people who slip through the system, who's to say it's not the same people that do these attacks?
I had a blog. It sucked.
2016-07-09, 7:25 AM #53
Sure, but we should just do nothing instead? When faced with the choice to try something different or continue to do what we know isn't working, I'm going to choose something different every time.
2016-07-09, 7:51 AM #54
I agree, and I do think mental healthcare desperately needs improvement, and I believe there is a lot of validity to what you said about the warning flags for these disasters on a personal level. I think improving mental healthcare would improve many peoples' quality of life across the board.

I just think that it's a bit reductive to say that mental health is the root of these issues. It is absolutely a contributing factor that allows these things to escalate to the point where we get shootings. But there's more at play in a racially charged shooting than mental health, gun control, or racism individually. I trust that you understand that, and I'm being a bit pedantic. But there is no "one problem" or one-size-fits-all solution.

Improved mental healthcare should be a part of the solution, and it certainly has a wider berth than just mass shootings.
I had a blog. It sucked.
2016-07-09, 9:00 AM #55
Ah, remember the good ole days when people would wait until after a verdict they disagree with to loot, commit hate crimes, and burn the city down? It seems that virtually all of these cases end up being justified when all of the facts are in. A cursory glance at the facts surrounding the Louisiana shooting show that police were responding to a call of an armed man, he was shot while resisting officers, and he did in fact have a firearm. Supposedly there is a video that shows a tense confrontation with the man before the police tackled him but I'm not going to wade through endless videos to find it.

When it comes to the case in Minnesota, it appears the two were pulled over for matching the description of robbery suspects. Information I've seen this morning suggests the guy never had never applied for a concealed carry permit. At least some of what we think we know about this case is wrong and we're going to have to wait for facts. But facts don't matter.

The old expression about not being able to yell fire in a crowded theater. I argue that of course you can but your freedom of speech doesn't protect you from the consequences of your actions. Regardless, Obama and BLM are in fact the ones yelling fire in a crowded theater and we see the results.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2016-07-09, 9:20 AM #56
http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/08/politics/sarah-palin-black-lives-matter/ lol
TAKES HINTS JUST FINE, STILL DOESN'T CARE
2016-07-09, 10:12 AM #57
A couple months ago Glenn Beck did a comparison of Sarah Palin today and Tina Fey's caricature of Palin. The Fey version was actually less crazy than Palin today.

http://www.glennbeck.com/2016/04/05/whats-happened-to-sarah-palin/
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2016-07-09, 10:20 AM #58
Originally posted by Wookie06:
When it comes to the case in Minnesota, it appears the two were pulled over for matching the description of robbery suspects.


Yeah, "black".

Whoops, I mean, "wide-set nose".

Quote:
Information I've seen this morning suggests the guy never had never applied for a concealed carry permit.


The state doesn't give that information without a subpoena, so it was probably made up?

Quote:
At least some of what we think we know about this case is wrong and we're going to have to wait for facts. But facts don't matter.


Obviously not.

Quote:
The old expression about not being able to yell fire in a crowded theater. I argue that of course you can but your freedom of speech doesn't protect you from the consequences of your actions.


Yes, for example: now that you've confirmed that you visit Stormfront, people here will respect you less.

Quote:
Regardless, Obama and BLM are in fact the ones yelling fire in a crowded theater and we see the results.


I'm confused. Surely "shouting fire in a crowded theater" is only a problem when it is false. But there is a fire? Please explain, Wookie06.

I'm surprised she would say such clueless and out-of-touch things, after all of the hard work she did to get the first black president elected.
2016-07-09, 10:27 AM #59
Originally posted by Jon`C:
Yes, for example: now that you've confirmed that you visit Stormfront, people here will respect you less.


I actually only know what an incredible slander (unless you want to argue it's libel) that is because Mark Levin said something about a "stormtrooper" site that was posting hateful stuff about him because he endorsed Cruz over Trump and is quite hard on Trump. You clearly know more than I about hate sites.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2016-07-09, 10:37 AM #60
Originally posted by Wookie06:
Ah, remember the good ole days when people would wait until after a verdict they disagree with to loot, commit hate crimes, and burn the city down? It seems that virtually all of these cases end up being justified when all of the facts are in. A cursory glance at the facts surrounding the Louisiana shooting show that police were responding to a call of an armed man, he was shot while resisting officers, and he did in fact have a firearm. Supposedly there is a video that shows a tense confrontation with the man before the police tackled him but I'm not going to wade through endless videos to find it.

When it comes to the case in Minnesota, it appears the two were pulled over for matching the description of robbery suspects. Information I've seen this morning suggests the guy never had never applied for a concealed carry permit. At least some of what we think we know about this case is wrong and we're going to have to wait for facts. But facts don't matter.

The old expression about not being able to yell fire in a crowded theater. I argue that of course you can but your freedom of speech doesn't protect you from the consequences of your actions. Regardless, Obama and BLM are in fact the ones yelling fire in a crowded theater and we see the results.


I had to give two passes on this dumpster fire. Here's the more somber one:

Comparing BLM to "[falsely] shouting fire in a crowded theater" is the worst and scariest thing Wookie06 has ever posted here. What he's saying is that criticizing the police should not be constitutionally protected speech. Period. Wookie06 doesn't come up with these ideas on his own, folks.

Edit: Or is it okay to criticize the police when you're white? Please clarify
2016-07-09, 10:52 AM #61
You know I've learned from my experiences here. Hell, even if I couldn't have pieced things together on my own CM's admission that I was persistently trolled here and Jon`C's admission that he aims to troll adversaries into arguments so they have less time to spread their ideas elsewhere were pretty enlightening.

Seriously, Jon`C, the fallacy of that logic aside, it should be clear your trolling doesn't occupy my thoughts or time much anymore. I'm surprised, despite your tremendous intellect, that more people don't see you as the race baiting hack you are, online at least.

I really don't need to visit any hate sites to come to the conclusion the president inflaming racial tension or blm "protests" of events before facts are known and spreading false propaganda is the equivalent to falsely shouting fire in the crowded theater. We see the retaliation against police in general and the heightened state of alert police are at during the carrying out of their routine duties. This is leading to deaths.

By the way, this crap is certainly emboldening hate groups other than blm. I fear far greater racial tension in our immediate future.

I don't know how sincere you are but if you actually think you're making a rational assumption about me based on a couple sentences I really pity you and what it must be like to live inside your head.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2016-07-09, 11:08 AM #62
Here's an original thought that just came to mind. I didn't have to find it anywhere else although I have plenty of free time so I just posted it on Facebook.
Quote:
One thing I really don't get nowadays. It seems to me that we used to just expect that criminals ran the risk of getting shot by the police. When and why did that expectation change?
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2016-07-09, 11:40 AM #63
Originally posted by Wookie06:
Here's an original thought that just came to mind. I didn't have to find it anywhere else although I have plenty of free time so I just posted it on Facebook.

One thing I really don't get nowadays. It seems to me that we used to just expect that criminals ran the risk of getting shot by the police. When and why did that expectation change?


"Everybody the police shoots is guilty" - Wookie06

Fortunately the bar on facebook is very low. Thanks for only posting it there.
2016-07-09, 11:56 AM #64
"People shouldn't be allowed to criticize a government agency!" - Wookie06

"Used ta be, when a cop shot a black man, we didn't have to talk about it. I sure miss those days!" - Wookie06

"Waaah, why do you trolls keep calling me racist??" - Wookie06

Edit:

"I'm not a racist authoritarian, my opinions are just indistinguishable from it. That's all, I swear." - Wookie06
2016-07-09, 12:27 PM #65
Originally posted by Wookie06:
You know I've learned from my experiences here.


I'm curious, is there a single person here who seriously reads Wookie's posts for any reason other than comic relief?
2016-07-09, 12:40 PM #66
Originally posted by Wookie06:
Here's an original thought that just came to mind. I didn't have to find it anywhere else although I have plenty of free time so I just posted it on Facebook.


Isn't that a little redundant?
TAKES HINTS JUST FINE, STILL DOESN'T CARE
2016-07-09, 1:21 PM #67
Perhaps but I allegedly get my views from a white power hate site so I erred on the side of redundancy.
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2016-07-09, 1:52 PM #68
Originally posted by Zloc_Vergo:
there is no "one problem" or one-size-fits-all solution.


Australia disagrees, but it would seem that Americans are far too arrogant to care.
2016-07-09, 2:15 PM #69
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
Australia disagrees, but it would seem that Americans are far too arrogant to care.


lol, there's way too many economic rents to extract from the status quo:

NRA donations and memberships
Investors in weapons manufacturers and prison contractors
Worthless politicians who only keep the vote because they are (for|against) gun control
Retail, distribution, manufacturing jobs to push out guns and gun accessories; guns are practically the only machinist jobs left in the US
LEO, prosecutorial, judicial, and clerical jobs that only exist because of gun violence
Lobbyist, activist jobs
News and journalism jobs that are limping along on gun violence stories keeping things interesting


Australia never had half of that stuff. It's not even ABOUT guns; it'll never end, not as long as there is profit to be made and kept. Same with the War on Drugs.
2016-07-09, 2:17 PM #70
Nvm
I had a blog. It sucked.
2016-07-09, 8:30 PM #71
Originally posted by Zloc_Vergo:
It is absolutely a contributing factor that allows these things to escalate to the point where we get shootings. But there's more at play in a racially charged shooting than mental health, gun control, or racism individually. I trust that you understand that, and I'm being a bit pedantic. But there is no "one problem" or one-size-fits-all solution.

Improved mental healthcare should be a part of the solution, and it certainly has a wider berth than just mass shootings.


I absolutely agree with you that it's not the only factor. I just take the one-thing-at-a-time approach to solving problems instead of allowing the totality of the problem be too overwhelming such that nothing gets done at all. This, of course, isn't always possible and sometimes when you start changing one thing you become forced to change another variable simultaneously that we might have incorrectly thought was independent. I don't think that is the case here, but I could be wrong. I just don't like the idea of not doing anything or only making changes at the superficial surface of the problem.
2016-07-10, 12:45 AM #72
Originally posted by Alco:
I absolutely agree with you that it's not the only factor. I just take the one-thing-at-a-time approach to solving problems instead of allowing the totality of the problem be too overwhelming such that nothing gets done at all. This, of course, isn't always possible and sometimes when you start changing one thing you become forced to change another variable simultaneously that we might have incorrectly thought was independent. I don't think that is the case here, but I could be wrong. I just don't like the idea of not doing anything or only making changes at the superficial surface of the problem.


Canada and the United States are very similar countries. Both come from the same white European source, culturally, and basically didn't have a real border separating them until 1900 or so. Both consume the same media. Both have a roughly proportionate ethnic minority which is persecuted by the police. Both countries do a fantastically ****ty job treating the mentally ill and taking care of the homeless. It's not really much harder or easier to get guns (in Canada it's a half day course for long rifles, full day for pistols). Both are geographically proximate. Both have the same level of development and technology. Both have ****ty, violent police (Canadian police kill about 1/4 as many per capita as US police, which is still far worse than most other developed countries*).

But Canada has 1/7th the gun violence per capita.

I mean, what? Taking care of the mentally ill is a fantastic idea, you should totally do that, but it's clearly not the real problem. There is nothing in the demographics that would suggest the US has 7 times the violent mental illness rates of Canada. There are probably more important problems to work on first.

(* Maybe this is a hint: Alberta has the highest police kill rate in Canada, at roughly half of the US average. Alberta has the lowest educational attainment rates, has low value add economy, flat taxes, and is generally speaking an Objectivist ****hole. But it does not have the most guns per capita.)
2016-07-10, 10:17 AM #73
The vast majority of shootings in the United States are committed by very small segment of the population. Could it be that Canada doesn't have whatever forces led to the creation of the situation that group of people finds itself in? It could be as simple as population density.
2016-07-10, 11:40 AM #74
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
The vast majority of shootings in the United States are committed by very small segment of the population. Could it be that Canada doesn't have whatever forces led to the creation of the situation that group of people finds itself in? It could be as simple as population density.


Most Canadians are crowded within a few miles of the Canada-US border. Toronto has a higher population density than New York.
2016-07-10, 11:54 AM #75
While you mentioned that it's easy to get a gun in Canada, there are almost four times as many guns per capita in the united states compared to Canada. This just about proportional to the ratio of gun deaths per capita in the US vs Canada.

Whatever the reason, there are more guns in the US, and it would be plausible that reducing that number would decrease the number of shootings.
2016-07-10, 11:57 AM #76
Originally posted by Reverend Jones:
While you mentioned that it's easy to get a gun in Canada, there are almost four times as many guns per capita in the united states than Canada. This just about proportional to the ratio of gun deaths per capita in the US vs Canada.

Whatever the reason, there are more guns in the US, and it would be plausible that reducing that number would decrease the number of shootings.


Do you know what happens any time a gun control bill comes up? Gun sales skyrocket. Americans on the fence buy guns because they don't know when they'll be able to next.

There are fewer guns in Canada because most Canadians don't feel a need to own one. So I'd ask you, is the problem really that guns are too easy to get? Or is the problem that Americans want guns?
2016-07-10, 12:05 PM #77
Clearly the latter. This is a cultural problem that we'd do well to overcome, but won't.
2016-07-10, 7:05 PM #78
Comparing Canada to the US is like comparing red apples to green apples. Yes, there are a lot of things that are the same, but there are also fundamental differences.

Jon'C, I'm not actually sure what you're point was other than eliminating demographics as the probable source problem. Maybe you can clarify how that correlates to mental health?

I doubt there are reasonable studies actually performed in the US to demonstrate violence to mental health problem ratios. This goes back to my original point that no one in the US is even taking a serious look at the mental health aspect. They're too busy trying to solve surface problems that have quite obviously done absolutely nothing to fix the underlying problem.

If mental health (as I've described previously) isn't the underlying problem or at least the largest contributing problem, then I don't know what is. There are definitely cultural influences as Reverend Jones pointed out. However, most gun owners/enthusiast that I know are more concerned about home invasion protection than anything else. Now, that's obviously a small statistical sampling, but based on other research I've done, that tends to be the number 1 reason for owning a gun other than for hunting/sport. So what's the common themes when we see these gun shootings? Some of these mass shooting were performed by radicals (mostly radicalized via the internet) or by those who have a known history of mental illness. When you look at the police officers involved in shootings, well, I think most people have had interactions with either 1 or 2 different flavor cops. The 1st actually seems to have concern for your well being. The 2nd could care less and just wants to find some reason to either write you a ticket or arrest you. I'm "white" and I'm not comfortable at all around the 2nd type and would say most people have contact with the 2nd type. Look at the Freddie Gray case. Look at how many officers who had contact with him and how many were charged (in some form or another) for misconduct in their interactions with him. This sampling doesn't suggest to me that 99% of all cops are of the 1st type. Lt Brian W. Rice in particular had a known mental illness history and who initiated the whole incident!
2016-07-10, 7:30 PM #79
Originally posted by Alco:
Comparing Canada to the US is like comparing red apples to green apples. Yes, there are a lot of things that are the same, but there are also fundamental differences.


I've lived in both countries. If you can think of relevant differences please share them, because I can't.

Quote:
Jon'C, I'm not actually sure what you're point was other than eliminating demographics as the probable source problem. Maybe you can clarify how that correlates to mental health?

I doubt there are reasonable studies actually performed in the US to demonstrate violence to mental health problem ratios. This goes back to my original point that no one in the US is even taking a serious look at the mental health aspect. They're too busy trying to solve surface problems that have quite obviously done absolutely nothing to fix the underlying problem.
As I said in my post: There are no demographic factors which can explain a claimed 7-fold difference in mental illness rates. Most of the people who commit violent crime are probably not mentally ill.

Quote:
If mental health (as I've described previously) isn't the underlying problem or at least the largest contributing problem, then I don't know what is. There are definitely cultural influences as Reverend Jones pointed out. However, most gun owners/enthusiast that I know are more concerned about home invasion protection than anything else. Now, that's obviously a small statistical sampling, but based on other research I've done, that tends to be the number 1 reason for owning a gun other than for hunting/sport. So what's the common themes when we see these gun shootings? Some of these mass shooting were performed by radicals (mostly radicalized via the internet) or by those who have a known history of mental illness. When you look at the police officers involved in shootings, well, I think most people have had interactions with either 1 or 2 different flavor cops. The 1st actually seems to have concern for your well being. The 2nd could care less and just wants to find some reason to either write you a ticket or arrest you. I'm "white" and I'm not comfortable at all around the 2nd type and would say most people have contact with the 2nd type. Look at the Freddie Gray case. Look at how many officers who had contact with him and how many were charged (in some form or another) for misconduct in their interactions with him. This sampling doesn't suggest to me that 99% of all cops are of the 1st type. Lt Brian W. Rice in particular had a known mental illness history and who initiated the whole incident!
That's the point.
2016-07-10, 7:52 PM #80
Originally posted by Alco:
There are definitely cultural influences as Reverend Jones pointed out. However, most gun owners/enthusiast that I know are more concerned about home invasion protection than anything else.


The "cultural difference" is that so many Americans feel the need to own a firearm, not necessarily for legitimate purposes of self defense, but because of a weird fantasy about killing an assailant someday, justifying their worship of the Second Amendment.

These people, mostly White, aren't the ones committing the majority of gun homicides (although gun suicides make up the majority of gun deaths). Most gun homicides are committed by young black males, against blacks, in the cities.

The cultural problem is that White Americans would rather keep the status quo than try to clean up the streets, so long as it doesn't affect them. And when they do feel in danger because of where they live, they are happy to purchase a firearm of their own.
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