you think I don't know that? I routinely date middle class chicks.

Some of us just don't see them as the enemy...or indeed anything else other than fellow human beings. Just with, you know, cool things on their body.

are you referrinjg to men or women? your statement is somewhat ambiguous. If you're referring to how men have interesting things on their bodies, well, in that case, your sexuality is your own business, not mine.

To reemphasize, I believe that feminist men are a disgrace.

I was refering to the idea of some men being traitors to their own gender being odd. Such emotive language seems very out of place. It's not like we are at war with women. Well, not most of us.

I am not at war with women. I deeply resent the men that have sold out and agree with the feminist ideals. Feminists do not represent all women.

Right.

Well, if you'll excuse me, I've got a lunch date with Benedict Arnold and the Rosenbergs.

Did a feminist kick your dog or something? It's fine that you have an opinion, because everyone is entitled to have one, but some of the things your saying are just stupid.

I will say this:

there are only 2 things that scare me...

And one is nuclear war.

-whats the other thing?

-Feminist Lesbians

Sheer terror.

if(getThingFlags(source) & 0x8){
  do her}
elseif(getThingFlags(source) & 0x4){
  do other babe}
else{
  do a dude}

The problem (ok, my problem) with feminism is that in fact, the two genders are not equal! I'm not saying that one gender is superior to the other. I'm just saying that there are inherent differences between then.

Ok, equal civil rights is fine by me, but no one should go around saying that women should be treated exactly like men becuase they are not exactly like men, so it doens't make any sense to treat them that way.



I could go on and on emphasizing my point, but I won't because I would probably just get repetetive and lose all credibility. This post ends here . ----->

A slight mistake on my part: the study was not at Mizzou. I e-mailed my professor, this is what he had to say:



So I did some searching...

http://www.onlinelawyersource.com/sexualdiscrimination/workplace.html

Ah. I remember those issues of Walmart.

wallmart manages dont even know about simese fighting fish and put heaps in the same tank and think that if one can be in a small tank, 10 can be in a small tank.

wallmart just sucks so it is not a good example as it is one of the worst places to work from all the whistleblower and first-hand accounts from shoppers I have read.

But it's one of America's leading retail store that employs people....

Male or female, competition is in human nature, though nobody likes to admit it. It's simple human nature to try and be better than anyone who "seems" better. Given that throughout history, men have had dominancy in the sight of social order, it's my personal opinion that feminism is an attempt to correct the past, and to create equality of the sexes, and I support that wholeheartedly, but only to the point of equality. It is at the point that the struggle for equality becomes a struggle for control that I lose all respect for the cause. And... that's.. all I've got.

First--it's Wal-Mart, not wallmart. Second--Siamese, not simese. Third--you're saying something sucks because of something someone told you....right...

Wal-Mart is a fine store in and of itself. It's got a good history, a good rep, and is cheap for what it offers. It's a very GOOD example and highly relevant. You, sir, should stop speaking now, while you're...behind...by a lot...but not as much as you could be behind by.

So yeah, in conclusion--Don't do crack.

for one and two,

very mature, using typos to point out flaws in my argument



also, I doubt you have ever been to every store, seen all the cvonditions, gotten all the backgrounds of the stores and their owners and employees (sp?), found out everyone's pay that has ever gone to wal-mart and find out how each of them sttores their merchendise in their warehouses.

when you give me a full and detailed report of every wal-mart in the U.S. and its teritories, includeing interviews with everyone that has ever ran a wal-mart store and pictures of the staff areas and the warehouses, I will take bacxk that statement.

however, scince time has already done a report to sho that women don't get paid as much as men and also showed the conditions there, I doubt you will be able to acomplish that.


/me sends dj yoshi a camera and 100 dollars to take pictures of other things and buy souvenirs (if you pick on the spelling in that piece of sarcasm/satire, I will record myself screeming and post it as an atatchment)

Wow! Women with integrated fridges? Very handy for keeping beer cool whilst snuggling.

okay little boys, it's about time for your wake-up call. and i'm not speaking to the ones who are actually openminded. i'm speaking to you [explitive] whiners out there that are complaining because your girlfriends have a greater say in the relationship. you automatically whine and complain when a woman does something better than you do and feel indignant and resentful when we have the confidence to point that out to you. then you go and site your little facts about how women have enough equality already and don't need anymore. and do you realize how hard we had to work to get these equalities? go pick up a book or something!!! it didn't happen overnight. it took over a century for men to realize what bastards they were being!! it took seventy years for women to gain the right to vote, when the privilege to vote was given to the lamest, most abusive men, regardless of whether or not they could read or drank themselves into the ground. women had to fight for that! know what else we had to fight for? let me rattle off a few items for you: how about the right to keep our inheritances in a marriage? or to have an identity in the eyes of the government? the right to work for reasonable wages and in decent conditions? how about to go to college and earn a degree? all of these things and more were denied to half of the population of the world until women decided they'd had enough. and now you come back that feminists are ugly and fat? these are intelligent and cunning women, and the fact that you're resorting to physical appearance as the basis of your argument is pathetic. feminists have worked hard since the early 1800's to prove that women are worth the time, and we have accompliashed some great things. a single woman is no longer considered a ward to the state if she does not get married or her husband dies. you will never be able to grasp what a feeling that is.

as for saying we want to dominate men and turn the world to our nasty little image; grow up! the idea of feminism is not just to promote equality, but to gain the appreciation that women are of equal value as a man in any positition. and you think we have it all? when has there been a female president? do you know how sick and tired i am of reading stories in magaizines about young girls, who when asked by their teachers [even women teachers] what they want to be when they grow up, are laughed at when they say they want to be president? show me anywhere in our laws where it says a woman can't be president. and don't you even dare bring up the notion that a woman president would screw up the economy and inernational affairs. and what about sports? men are allowed to go out there and give it there all and then be proud and boisterous about it. a woman still needs to be modest and act feminine when she plays a sport, keeping a certain amount of grace in her actions, and when she wins she's hardly allowed to feel any sense of pride. if anything she's supposed to feel a moderate sense of guilt for beating a man. and we still need to wear the dresses and the makeup and the nail polish. you know what? dresses are annoying; makeup is a hassle to put on, and then it just smears or flakes off anyway; and nail polish chips within a day of putting it on. these expectations that we have to live up to are ludicrous. so let's touch on that next.

ever hear of a little something called the "double standard? this is the reason feminism still exists. if a man has sex before marriage he's a hero to his friends; if a man likes sex society sees nothing wrong with that; if he's an overbearing boss at work he's just stern and confident; if he's less demanding then he's considerate. maybe you should be reminded of the stereotypes placed on women. if a woman has sex before marriage she's a whore; if she likes having sex she's a nymphomaniac; if she's a tough boss she's a b*tch, but if she's less demanding she's weak and shouldn't have been appointed to the job.

and the rape thing. women are more susceptible to rape because of a little thing called penetration. it's more traumatic for a woman. and most rapists think we enjoy this? that's called a "rape myth" children; the assumption that when a woman says 'no' we mean 'yes.' and you get this assumption from watching violent porn, or even james bond movies. we say no for a reason. respect that. and if you think rape laws are unfair, guess again. they're gender neutral. but the likelyhood of a man getting raped is far less likely than for a woman. you don't hear about men being raped and beaten to death while jogging in parks, mostly because it just doesn't happen.

you have a problem with feminists? fine. you proabably have problems with lots of things that i'm not going to go into. but the next time you go and flame a political movement, have a reason more legitimate than "they're fat and ugly."

#1 Reason why women will never have fully equality:

Drafting. There are tons of problems with drafting, most being the fact that having only men in the army reduces distractions. Also, having an opposite sex causes problems in warfare, where a woman might not shoot a man if she likes him, or vice versa.

Of course, there are many other more ethical reasons also, but I won't delve into those at the moment.

And Pagewizard, let me get your exact position on this:

Do you, or do you not believe that women should have equal rights, in pay and in respect?

Answer carefully, choose the wrong answer and I will be forced to put you on my ignore list :p

*snip*

Sorry, I can't read rants unless they have proper grammer and capitalization.



[edit- And yet you have a space before the period at the end of your sentence. Dont make useless posts like this or you will be banned]

EDIT: I have no problem with a space and a period. I have problems with entire rants being poorly grammered so I can't read them. People need to use MS word or something.

...

You quote the whole thing just to say that. You, someone whose grammar and spelling haven't exactly been perfect, either. I read the post just fine, by the way. There are some things I will comment on too, unless someone else says the same things before I can be bothered.

What girlfriends?


Also, I'm pretty sure that we haven't said three quarters of the things that you're reprimanding us for saying.

Agreed don't do that again. It's beyond annoying.

No, your typos were just VERY annoying. And they're certainly no better in this post. Also--at least I've been to ONE, not to mention something like the 20 different ones I've seen in my lifetime. And they're very good everywhere I go.

Can you even say THAT much? That you've been to one?

No one was downplaying what it took to get women's rights to where they are today. What's being debated as to whether or not we've reached as full of equality as possible.



Again, no one (that I can recall) said that women were trying to take over the world. The most likely I can recall is perhaps a misinterpreted implication somewhere in this thread.



Only in a few cases. This "double standard" is not universal; in fact, you're stereotyping all men, which I find extremely offensive.



Anal penetration is just as traumatic for men as vaginal penetration is for women (perhaps moreso, as one is less mean for penetration than the other). Yes, male rape does happen, typically from other men (some 2-3% is done by women), though it is significantly smaller in magnitude than female rape cases.



Your argument's standing on a weak leg. You're making assumptions that no one's implied.

It's funny how Morgana_Te_Faye implies that it's men who perpetuate the standards of what's "feminine" and "girly."

indeed.

No one forces women to wear all the crap they put on their face to look good for us, but most of them seem to enjoy it.

sure, why not?

Assuming they pay the same dues as the men have to, I have no problem with it.

How true. To quote my sister: "Women dress for other women, not for men."

there are only a few comments to my post worth recognizing. i'm disappointed. as for the idiot who wouldn't read the post simply because i chose not to capitalize anything: i read your one other post. go buy yourself a dictionary and a thesaurus. you're going to need them to get out of grade school.

Kudos to the one person to actually make some valid arguments to my point. you get applause. and clarification.

some people seem to think that women are the way they are due to their own actions. society has shaped what women have become, and who do you think shaped early society? a women's goal in like had to be to get a husband so that she wouldn't starve to death. and what did that mean? looking nice. and now unless a woman puts time into her appearance, she's treated like she doesn't care about herself at all and has no self-esteem. we aren't jealous of the pretty ones. we pity them, because they get even less validated respect than the average woman does. and men basically have decided what's feminine and girly. look at how many straight men scorn the homosexual population. and don't even get me strted on the how "manly" it is to go out and play football and cook on a grill. it's a good laugh, but holds litle relevance at present.

to my person who made a point: you're right, no one was downplaying it, just as no one was standing up and saying what's going on. it's a politicial movement. would you feel like you were making a good argument about the government at current unless you looked at the government of the past? unless you can see where something has come from, you can't arue about where it is. do some homework on the subject; you'd be surprised how much opposition feminists were met with, from both sexes. including the church. go out and find yourself the "pastoral letter of the massachusetts congretional clergy," written in 1837. it's an interesting read.

someone, i don't remember who nor do i care, calimed that feminists want to dominate the world and change it to their image. go back through the "thread" and read. it's there.

the double-standard is universal. you're just on the lucky end of it. if i were to go sleep with a couple of guys simply because i can my reputation would be ruined. you do it and you're a hero. it's the same way everywhere i can think of, and i'm thinking of other countries and continents. you find me even one example [that's legitimate] and i'll rescind my comment.

the rape thing? it wasn't intended to belittle male rape as something meaningless and insignificant. it's a horrible action from any angle, and the perpetrator should be shot in the head. or the genitals. whatever. the point is that men only have to be seriously concerned about anal penetration. women have to worry about anal and vaginal. not to mention all of the health complications involved with the latter. the vast majority of reported rape cases have female victims, so think of how many others don't report it because they're too scared. plus, a man has a better chance of fighting off an attacker than a woman does. it's just fact. if that comes off as unsympathetic, fine. you're intitled to your opinions.

the assumptions didn't need to be implied. they needed to be brought into the open and thrown in the faces of the ignorant. if you're one of the openminded few, why are you getting so upset? but the prepubescent - postpubescent boys who know everything about nothing and playing games need to be educated sometime.

A woman that looks nice is in a sense the extreme female. And what does the extreme female seek? The extreme male, or course! Just as women show their feminity by dressing up and looking nice and raising the children, men show their masculinity by going out and providing for the family. Men are the providers, the hunters, and the warriors. Civilization has eliminated the need for hunting and protection, but we are still the providers for the family unit. That is our natural niche.







Playing football is a competitive sport, and men are good at that. It is who we are, and that cannot be changed. In times past, we were competitive in different ways. For example, the best hunter in the neolithic tribe probably enjoyed the highest status and the most women. Since the need to hunt has been effectively eliminated, men strive for this dominance in different ways, such as sports. Competition is part of natural male behaviour.

Women are different. They level the playing field when they interact, but there is always a degree of competition between men even in conversation.

Again, you're judging society based on the actions of the few. All the people I associate with will tell you that a woman needs only to maintain a basic level of hygiene (soap, shampoo, brush the teeth, etc.) on a daily basis to be just fine. Make-up, on a daily basis, is not expected or required.



The majority of homosexual men are not effeminate.



Where it came from and what opposition it once faced is not relevant to the current debate. We're debating whether or not further steps should be taken from this point in time, or whether the movement is fine where it is.



No. Burden of proof lies on the person who is making the positive claim: you. I'm not going to do your work for you, especially if you're going to abandon the point the moment it's challenged.



I rescind my previous comment; (according to my psych professor) in the majority of cases (56% of guys polled), a girl's reputation was lessened in their eyes if she slept around. However, that leaves a good 44% left -- a 44% that's being unfairly generalized by you.



I'm not saying it's not a horrific experience -- I've heard plenty of stories in my Human Sexuality course of women who've experienced reactions of disbelief and anger over accusations of rape, from parents to fiancees to authority figures.

The myth of "women enjoy rape" is simply a justification that rapists make for themselves, often to help them cope with whatever guilt they might feel over the situation (though this is often very little, if any).

I'm not sure how anal penetration is more dangerous for women that it is men. Could you explain that?



But, as of now, you're the only stating assumptions about men, and complaining about assumptions being made about women. That's the pot calling the kettle black if I ever saw it.

I do consider myself "open-minded" when it comes to women's rights, but I'm not going to support the movement and suffer such accusations and generalizations against me.

[ Edit ] Just read Page's post. Please, do not think that anything he says in any way, shape, or form represents the majority of the males here at Massassi. [ /Edit ]

"Beauty" is a mechanism of evolution. What's "feminine" and "beautiful" at one point was instinctually what all heterosexual men sought for to spread their genes, as it was a good indicator of health (women are a different story, looking for two types of partners instead of one). Women are just as much to blame as men for society's shaping of what "feminine" became as civilizations developed. Women began pushing farther and farther to compete with other women. You can't blame just men for that. And if you continue to, at least provide a reason why instead of "and men basically have decided what's feminine and girly." That doesn't prove anything, that's you stating your opinion. Football and grills, wow, that's amazing. I love stereotypes. At least you could have used one that holds some water, like how "manly" it is to size other men up.

If I were to sleep with as many women as I could, some my male friends would probably experience envy and jealousy. Some of my female friends would experience disgust and distrust. If you were to sleep with as many men as you could, it'd flip. That double standard also holds a few roots in evolution. A man finds a woman who sleeps around less desirable simply because there's a lesser chance that her offspring will be his.


Wolfy, there's a risk that a woman's perineum will rip, which would be a health risk that men don't have. However, the female anatomy is designed to have room and stretch, so I can't really say that it is less dangerous for a man than a woman.

Morgana_Te_Faye sort of reminds me why I find most feminists irritating. Its like they're warriors for a war that has already been won. But since they know no other way they are forced to continue the battle by creating new foes where there are none, so they may continue to try and vanquish them.

Perfect. It's not possible to say that better. You, my friend, are a genius with words.

the only reason you are all so willing to flame the movement is because you are with a group of individuals who are saying the exact same things. switch it around a little and you'd be less likely to speak so openly.

"the pot calling the kettle black?" that's something my great-grandmother says. kind of reminiscent actually. didn't know people still used that phrase.

essentially i've read the same things over and over again. the only thing you find irritating is that you had everyone basically agreeing with everyone else, and then a dissenter shows up and throws your reality off. i don't disagree with everything you're saying, but i don't agree with a lot of it either. at least i have the dignity to say so. and if any of you were mature at all, you'd realize that not eveyrone thinks the same thing you do and stop being so egocentric.

as for the "warriors" comment, i got a chuckle. if it was meant to be insulting you fell short of your mark. sorry.

the topic has been killed boys. you've pointed out everything you care to and are going in circles. try saying something new for a change. as is, this is a subject that you're not going to sway people's opinions on. it's like religion or politics. do the world a favor, and let it go.

10-7

you have to be one of the most bitter people
that I've ever seen on this board.

The irony is so thick, I could smother Tracer in it.

Not really. Most people don't know his name, but he is well known for saying this:
"First, they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me."
The point is, we're all in this together and should stand up for each other. It doesn't matter what they can do for us.


Thank you, Jaiph. I agree, they aren't our enemies.


Can I come too? I can bring along Judas.


I totally agree with you. That's one of the things I don't like about the feminist movement. Neither sex is superior, but we're still different.


Very insightful (I'm not being sarcastic). I agree, except where would you draw the line between equality and control?


Dude, Yoshi, I like you but could you lay off the insults? There are some pretty bad problems with Wal-Mart. They are unfair to the companies that produce the goods you sell. Do a google search for "walmart vlasic" (without the quotes) and you'll find out why.

Morgana_Te_Faye, I'm at your first post but I'm not going to quote it because it's too long. I agree with what you have to say, and I'm glad you're here! It's good to see you point out the struggle of feminism. Try not to get too accusatory or aggressive though.
Could you use more paragraph breaks? It's easier on the eyes.


Awesome post. I like how you just cut through the BS and try to get to the heart of the matter.


Here's another issue that I was kind of hoping someone would bring up. One place where women have it better than men is here. When men are sexually harassed by women, people don't take it as seriously.


It goes both ways. They do that because some of them think they're supposed to.


That was way uncalled for. Seriously, try to be nice. Why are you so insistant on not capitalizing anyway?


You didn't come off as unsympathetic to me. Although I think shooting people is a bit far.


I agree, except try not to be so divisive.


Women are every bit as competitive as men, just in different ways.


Indeed. Look at the Village People. I associate homosexuality with extreme masculinity.


It's still worthwhile to point out the struggle. It's not like they didn't have a lot of work. This discussion is still about feminism in general.


It doesn't seem like a generalization about you. A lot of men would think of you as a hero if you screwed around, it doesn't mean you would think of yourself or other people that way.


Morgana didn't say that.


I don't see any assumptions about men in general, just comments about how many of them still are.


That doesn't make it okay.


Those who say that the battle for quality is over are as good as enemies of women's equality.

Morgana, you can still do some good here by pointing out why the women's rights struggle is still going on. It'll at least help inform me.

I never said it did make it ok, I was simply trying to explain why it's there in the first place. There are a lot of things that are driven by instinct that are no longer "ok" due to society.