Watch me.

****

And you can watch me condem the American troops for their actions. They did a whole lot worse.

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«»The Scratchware Manifesto
-¬thoughts from beyond observance

If only bin Laden were half as willing to apologize for those men as you are, your comparison would not be quite so stupid and morally bankrupt. Alas!

You make me sick.

I never said I agreed with what the extremists did to the American, but their retaliation was more than expected. It is unfortunate that a civilian was involved, but it's certainly made everyone plenty upset, which is just what they were looking to achieve. If the US manages to track down and punish the extremists like they've said they will, then I would expect nothing less than to see those American troops getting the same punishment, because God knows they deserve it just as much, if not more.

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«»The Scratchware Manifesto
-¬thoughts from beyond observance

... You said we can't condemn them! THAT IS AN APOLOGY. As for the American troops, I sure as **** hope you're talking about the ones who are actually guilty of murder, not the ones in the photos.

You can hardly blame me for suspecting a motive other than justice if you're seriously comparing psychological abuse to sawing a man's head off.

I don't follow your logic about my comment being an apology to or for anyone. And I am simply amazed at how you can be so infuriated at their actions when troops from your own country have done such horrific things. If those troops hadn't of done those things, that man would still be alive.

Any of the American troops involved in the humiliation, rape, abuse, and murder of those Iraqi troops should be brought to justice.
Any of the Iraqi extremists involved in the execution of the American civilian should be brought to justice.
You can't single out the Iraqi's for their actions, when the actions of those American troops practically sentence an innocent man to death.

What is this motive, other than justice, that you suspect of the Iraqi extremists?

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«»The Scratchware Manifesto
-¬thoughts from beyond observance

[This message has been edited by Jin (edited May 12, 2004).]

WAIT WAIT WAIT!!!!!
My mistake!!!
I meant there is nothing to justify what they did to that guy.

I MISSED THE WORD 'not' IN THAT SENTENCE.

I edited it.

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To artificial life, all reality is virtual.
HTP
babble, babble, b!tch, b!tch, rebel, rebel, party, party.

You just don't get it. The American troops are being brought to justice by their superiors. The first court martial of a US soldier charged with abusing prisoners will take place in an open forum with transparent methods.

And I most certainly can single them out, because the American troops and commanders who are being charged do not represent the policy of the US Army - they are an anomaly.

If you really want to compare this video with the prisoner abuse, it's a bit Rumsfeld himself pulling Iraqis around on leashes. The man who severed Nick Berg's head was (purportedly) Abu Musab al Zarqawi. The leader of al Qaeda in Iraq.

This is a classic example of blaming the victim. You say this wouldn't have happened had the prisoners at Abu Ghraib not been abused? So ****ing what?

You do not hold these people to the same moral standard as US troops. The fact that they are disgusting wretches does not in any way excuse their wretched actions, which is implicit in what you said. You accept that they murder innocents uncritically for no other reason than because they do.

You offer al Qaeda's justification as legitimate and taken for granted. That is an explicit apology. I was questioning your motives, not theirs.

I acknowledged their motives for killing the American - I never gave support to al Qaeda or said the terrorist actions of their group were justifed.
The actions of the American troops did bring about this inncident. Personal anomalies do not, and never will exist in the minds of al Qaeda members - what those troops did will reflect on the entire US Army in the eyes of the Iraqi people, just as the actions of Iraqi extremists reflect on all Iraqi people in the eyes of the American people. I'm sure you and many others here will say that I'm wrong about that, but it is true.

I do hold them to the same moral standard - what I'm arguing is that this was going to happen because of what those troops did. Were any of their actions morally justified? No. Were their actions politically justified? A matter of opinion.
The motive for my comments is because I can fully understand the anger felt by al Qaeda and even the Iraqi people about how their people have been disgraced at Abu Ghraib. And for the record, I do support the American occupation in Iraq.

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«»The Scratchware Manifesto
-¬thoughts from beyond observance

[This message has been edited by Jin (edited May 12, 2004).]

Here's the problem: The abuse of Iraqi prisoners was not justification for the beheading. It was the excuse.

Have we not already seen the complete disregard Al-Qaeda has for human life. Thousands murdered in our country. Embassy bombings. Kidnappings and murder of civilians worldwide. All prior to any of this prisoner abuse (by criminals) taking place.

If anyone honestly believes you can understand how the terrorists could have possibly been justified (or at least not condemned) for their action then are you willing to say the same about all of their actions (Mort-Hog, you don't need to answer that)? Because the fact is they are committing these acts for the very same reasons. Reasons that are probably too evil for must of us to ever really understand.

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Have you forgotten ...

What the guards did in Abu Gharaib is disgusting and one of the stupidest things to have gone on. One thing I'd like to point out to you is that it is not just a small and local problem. That's crap. Stuff like torture, rape, and murder don't happen when the guidelines are being followed and guards are being checked up on. Some of you probably didn't know that a lawyer was supposed to be sent to Abu Gharaib prison to make sure the people within were being treated correctly. Another thing to think about is that the people who commited the offense were probably under heavy pressure to produce intelligence results. People up above were most likely pressing them to gather more and more information. I'd like to direct your attenion to the study that said that basically anyone would do things like electrocute another human being if an authority figure told them that they would not be held responsible.
Anybody who tries to rationalize what the guards did and say that we need to get past it is stupid. Stupid for even thinking that the Iraqi people will ever get over this. A part of their culture is this very un-western view of themselves as a whole, not as individuals. Anybody unwilling to see that this was going to happen is an idiot. Look at it from there eyes and see just how much we've screwed up. Abu Gharaib prison was one of the prisons that Saddam Hussein used as a house of torture and murdering. The Americans drive Saddam's government out, the Americans set up camp, the Americans hold prisoners in Abu Gharaib. Then the Iraqi person hears about torture, rape and murder going on in Abu Gharaib. It confirms what he was already thinking; that America was just an imperialist invader doing the same things as Saddam.

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Daddy, why doesn't this magnet pick up this floppy disk?

I agree perfectly. I would condemn all the killing and torturing on both sides. We ARE talking about human lives no matter who's the subject. I think it's justified comparing this murder to those idiots who walked out and shot some Arabs after September 11th. In both situations, it's just so horrendously stupid! I can't believe what people who do things like these are thinking about. Obviously, more killing is not the way to settle a conflict, and pointless killing/revenge is the most effective way to further infuriate the other side of the conflict. I hope everyone (on both sides) who participated in torturing and aimlessly killing in Iraq gets put on a proper court and gets a proper punishment.

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Gandalv the Gray, recieving bans for Christmas since December 2001

[This message has been edited by Gandalv the Gray (edited May 12, 2004).]

I'm very sorry for mistakenly saying he was a security contractor, perhaps detracting from the value of the suffering he and his family endure, not that what he was makes much difference considering that unbelievable brutality.

I was under the impression he was beheaded like the Japanese did routinely in WW2- with a clean swipe- which is sickening, but pales in comparison to sawing a man's head off for at least thirty seconds.

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Steal my dreams and sell them back to me.....

I AM GOING TO BE BLUNT WITH THIS

If you have not seen the video, you have no right to say anything was justified or unjustified by those actions.

Sadly, I have seen the video. Someone I know e-mailed it to me, who had not seen it all over the news and had no idea wtf it was and asked me about it.

It is, without a doubt, the most ****ed up thing I have ever seen. I came close to throwing up several times. There are simply not words to describe it. You can hear this man begging for them to stop, and begging to God not to die as they attack him. He was sitting there, calm as can be, then suddenly they start screaming some whacked out **** in there language, I have no idea wtf it was, grab a machette and pounce on him.

I have seen some screwed up stuff before, more so to help a friend out. One friend once saw a video online of a Russian soldier getting killed, and I had to convince her it was fake, and in the process had to watch it to figure out how I could convince her. This video that I saw last night can not measure up to anything you will ever see.

Short of being in the actual room to witness it, there is nothing that most of you will ever see in your lives and sick and disturbing as this.

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I can't think of anything to put here right now.

You're a fool. We abused some Iraqi's, perhaps. Maybe we "murdered some" although I have never heard anything at all like that until this thread.

But you're forgetting that the guys they arrest are rarely wrongfully arrested. Most of them have either killed/injured Coalition troops, or tryed to. A few have only planned such attacks.

This guy, an innocent civilian repairman, was captured, and then they sawed his head off in front of a camera. NOT ONLY IS THIS MURDER, THIS IS THE GROTESQUE TORTURE, DEATH, AND DISMEMBERMENT OF AN INNOCENT! ON CAMERA! RELEASED TO THE WORLD!

How dare you defend these actions. Do you think they anesthetized this guy, or do you think it was quick and painless? THEY SAWED HIS HEAD OFF. HE SCREAMED AS THEY DID IT.

You disgust me

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Ω of 14

Let me put it this way

From the moment they began sawing, it took them a good TWENTY seconds before they were done. And you know what? You can hear him screaming for the first ten seconds. Now, when I say 20, I mean from the moment you see the knife enter. Not counting when they pull the knife out and throw him on the ground, other wise it was probably 30-45 seconds. I mean the moment they actually begin to cut to the moment you know that it is off. TWENTY seconds. Maybe more. I didn't count and there is no way on God's green Earth I am going to watch it again to see.

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I can't think of anything to put here right now.

i certanly don't mean a sheltered life, but i'm ashamed of the entire human race at this point and would like to distance myself from it.

:/

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---Thomas jefferson, Declaration of Independance.

You know, this topic is getting vary messy.

It's interesting to see how people all see this differently. I have a few opinions on the matter. But the most important is there is no justification for the mutilation of a non combatant, even if these were regular Iraqis and not bloody freaking Al Queda. Infact, scratch that. There is no reason to even trim the eyebrow of a non combatant. They aren't there to do anything but help.

Another thing to keep in mind that this was Al Queda, not independent Iraq citizens. This to me isn't an action of the people in general (although some of them may condone it because we kinda invaded their country and killed them, and other such things like that). This wasn't revenge par se, just another excuse for ol' Al Queda to do some royally stupid ****. They may say it was revenge, but that poor soul was doomed anyway. It's like a Nazi capturing a Jew, and saying they killed the person because the other day there was a concentration camp uprising; they were dead anyway. I think we should keep Al Queda seperate from the general Iraqi public.

Al Queda annoys me to no end. It's painful to see how they shoot themselves in the foot time and time again. If I were them, I'd do nothing, if not treat the americans good. Possibly stir up some other foregin powers to see them as the "poor victims". Funny to see how fast global opinion can change at nigh lightspeed. But no, they can't hide for one second and show their true colors. Thank god their stupidity works for us.

Apart from all this though, who here actually thinks the war was truly nessecary? I like the very tenuous links. Especially how our motives changed here and there. Operation Iraqi death and destruction; err, I mean freedom. Heh, and even if it was, we should have finished our "meal" (Osama + Afangistan's Situation) before starting "dessert" (Saddam). I love how the link between Osama and Saddam was never really shown. There could possibly be one, maybe. If that was the case, there is a long line of countries that would help Al Queda, hell, in that vein of (il)logic, North Korea was even more of a threat. And god, Osama and Saddam weren't exactly buddies I hope you know. They were like the Nazi's and the Communists were. Sure, for a second they could possibly be allies, but in the end a few seconds later they would backstab eachother faster than you could blink. They hated eachother. Now all of a sudden they are friends? Pfft.

This subject needs to be changed... it makes the Anti war people look like a bunch of ruthless savages against their own people. I don't give a crap if you think the opinions are stupid/idiotic/moronic, but I don't like beeing seen as someone who condones human suffering. Really people, the war was damned wrong, but if they came over and bombed a school bus, that isn't right by any stretch of the imagination. I shudder to think what else would be condoned.

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http://www.4guys-1dragoon.cjb.net -No porn. We promise*

There is no justification for torture or slowly decapitating someone with knife.

oS, stop making **** up. American military intelligence officials have told the Red Cross that between 70 and 90 percent of the inmates at Abu Ghraib "had been arrested by mistake".

Yeah. Not only were we torturing prisoners, which is inexcusable regardless of circumstances, but most of them weren't even guilty of any crime.

What Kuat said.

[This message has been edited by Ictus (edited May 12, 2004).]

The simple fact that many of the acts our soldiers committed in that prison can be shown on TV while the numerous events perpetrated by Arab murderers cannot speaks volumes. The US takes responsibility for the actions of the soldiers who committed attrocious acts and prosecutes the offenders. These Arab murderers hide behind masks. They kill civilians, soldiers, and "fellow" Arabs alike. There is a huge difference between us and them. The flew jets into buildings, bombed government, military, and civilian targets. Murdered civilians. All before the stupid actions taken by any of our soldiers. Sure, we can condemn all of the bad actions by everyone but to place any kind of moral equivalency between us and them is demented.

It doesn't matter what they think, feel, or why they do what they do. They horrificly, methodicly murder people in order to break the resolve of their enemies. These terrorist murderers would do it to any one of us.

The war on terror is vital and if we allow any of this crap to faulter our resolve these *******s will have won and the thousands of poor souls who have been murdered by them will certainly have died in vain.

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Have you forgotten ...

Why does their ethnicity matter so much you mention it three times?

Since I was talking about two "groups" of people and that both have committed acts that are reprehensible as related to this discussion I want to ensure that it is clear which group I am referring to in each statement. Also, I could have used "muslim extremists" however I thought Arab was fine especially when modified with words such as "murderers" to differentiate them from the average Arab. Oh, and since the people I'm referring to are quite possibly from different countries it wouldn't make sense to call them all by the same nationality.

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Have you forgotten ...

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Ω of 14

I understand why they would do this. They are not justified though. Of course, these people think they were justified. They are also people who think dieing and getting 72 virgins in heaven is a good thing. My god how wrong they are.
Necessary? No. If the new government lasts, will it be good? Yes

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Is Wayne Brady going to have to choke a *****?

It's terrible. Nothing justifies anything else. Two wrongs don't make a right. Say it however you want.

However, you must ask yourself why is the death of Nick Berg so important?

I've read the international section of the New York Times cover to cover every day for several months now (I've also been going into the other sections, and I've read various other sources to compare rhetoric, but I can't really discuss the art section in this discussion)... That is not to say that the NYT is the perfect source for unbiased news, but I've really seen the world unfold in the past few months, and I feel like I'm relatively informed. I've watched the month of April go by and I've seen.. how many was it... two hundred and eleven American infantry men die? Each day i've seen a box with a list of names and their home town... its hard to realize that those people are dead, and that so few words can be the result in a family losing one of its members. It can represent pain that can tear a family apart.

Likewise, I've read about the deaths of Iraqi civilians, including women and children. I've read about the abuse of Iraqi prisoners.

And now I see the death of Nicholas Berg, front-page news. I understand he's a 'civilian' (if you want to call him that. I'd still call you ignorant for thinking that he didn't realize he put himself in harms way by going to Iraq. I doubt he knew he was going to have his head cut off with a saw, but still...) Why is his life any more important than the lives of the three American infantry men that died today?

The answer is because Nicholas Berg's death affects us. We're supposed to be fighting a war against terrorism, but most of the people who American's have killed have not been terrorists, but Iraqi soldiers. Infact, we have had little confrontation with terrorism in Iraq, exempting of course the occasional suicide bomber here or there.

But do you want to talk about real terrorism? The point of terrorism, often over looked, is to incourage fear. You are not a terrorist for killing someone in cold blood; you are a terrorist for creating fear. Abu Musab al Zarqawi, the man who is beileved to have killed Mr. Berg, is a prime example of a terrorist. Look at the people who have actually seen the video on this thread.... they are terrified. They have seen something which has altered their perspective.

All you people who claim its disgusting this happened infront of a video camera... It wouldn't have been worth making happen if there was no video camera! We are all now roused up in some way or another because of this video, and to this extent, al Qaeda has been successful.

This is not to say that this execution is at all justified. Its terrible. However, I refuse to allow it to affect me any more than the deaths of those who don't end up on the front page of the New York Times.

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To myself I surrender to the one I'll never please.
But I still try to run on.
You know I still try to run on. But it's all or none.

Eddie Vedder

[This message has been edited by Eversor (edited May 12, 2004).]

It's a tough one to call I tell ya.

What those barbarians did was unforgivable.
But how forgivable is the knowingly bombing a house in a residential area knowing a 1000lb bomb is going to destroy the adjacent houses. And doing this on possibly good intel. Knowingly killing the next door neighbours, while not knowing how many and/or how old they are.

It's a tough one to call.

Would the broken sandstone and other building materials slowly crushing a civillian (non-combatant) to death over the period of 3 or 4 minutes be considered torture when the bomb dropper and his commanders know full well there is a 100% chance of this happening?
Some think so. But then Bush and Rumsfeld have convinced people that that kind of torture and death is OK (maybe because no one sees it). :/
Obviously two wrongs don't make a right.
Or do they?
Depending on how you look at it, the US was wronged, and now they are wronging someone else in the name of that first wrong.

Hmmmm...

Anyone actually thinking about it yet?

On another note, Americans are in for a HUGE shock while there is an investigation into this prisoner mistreatment.
As Canada investigated the Airborne we found out all kinds of things we didn't want to know about what goes on in elite forces training and operations.
But, as one guy put it on the Dennis Miller show last night, "We shouldn't know."
The US Navy made a deal with New York organized crime bosses Myer Lansky and Lucky Luciano to 'take care of' the German Nazis in New York. Every once in awhile the Navy officials would ask, "How's it going?" and the reply would be, "It's going."
There was no trouble from the German Nazis thanks to the mob.
You don't have to really ask how they did it but they did it.

Amercans are not going to like what they see.
We didn't.

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To artificial life, all reality is virtual.
HTP
babble, babble, b!tch, b!tch, rebel, rebel, party, party.

That's great and all Evad, but do you think we'll actually get such a large scandal? With our current "Teflon President"?

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Daddy, why doesn't this magnet pick up this floppy disk?

^ this guy has the right attitude


Also, Evad has a good point.

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When bread becomes toast, it can never go back to being bread again.

It's not more important, but the soldiers who died today were killed in combat. Sawing off the head of a civilian and killing a soldier in combat are in no way comparable. It's as simple as that.

I think there will be major backlash on the government for all of this.
I think there will be a big scandal that the president will have to account for during an election year.
They are starting an investigation. There will be all kinds of things brought up that the average citizen doesn't know about. And they will not be happy to know about the kinds of things that go on in the military when soldiers are away.

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To artificial life, all reality is virtual.
HTP
babble, babble, b!tch, b!tch, rebel, rebel, party, party.

Both Eversore and Evad's last posts were great.

Evad, I understand what you're saying. Contrary to your opinion Bush (and I would assume Rumsfeld) approach the issue solemnly. Whether you (everyone, not just you) like Bush or not, whether you think he's an idiot or not, I think it should be acknowledged that he understands the pain war causes everyone on all sides.

Innocents will die and have died in the war. It is unfortunate and nobody could honestly argue otherwise. Nothing can be said to "justify" their deaths. I guess it's just that in this point in our history it's the best we can do and I don't think we can afford to wait until we get any better at it.

I can understand the average Iraqi who may have known someone that was killed due to American action becoming jaded towards us. I just don't think that should be confused with the terrorists who seem to lament in the horrid acts we've been acustomed to hearing about.

Eversore, I think the death of Berg should affect people if only to serve as a reminder for why we are in this war on terror. Sure, soldiers are dying fight the war for us and nothing should be taken away from their deaths but we've all come to expect the news of a soldier dying in combat. However the death of a man like Berg serves to remind us of the reason we are there. I wish we didn't have to be there but this seems to be the challenge of this generation. I just hope we leave things better for all of our future generations in the process.

edit - Evad's last post when I typed the message. His one immediately previous to this post is seriously flawed. In my opinion.

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Have you forgotten ...

[This message has been edited by Wookie06 (edited May 12, 2004).]

oS: I guess there's a reason people call you reactionaries. You take "knee-jerk" to a whole new "bitter bundle of spasming limbs" low.

Not that I'm defending their actions--nothing justifies doing that to someone. However, I'd like to point out that our troops shot a lot of them to death as well.

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Map-Review | My Portfolio | The Matrix: Unplugged

[This message has been edited by Thrawn42689 (edited May 12, 2004).]

What is the problem with shooting Al Qaeda to death? They flew freaking planes into buildings killing thousands of people to name just one act. They should all be killed before they ever have the opportunity to harm others.

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Have you forgotten ...

And a response like that is justified how? "However, I'd like to point out that our troops shot a lot of them to death as well." Taking that quote alone, it would be reasonable to say that Thrawn is talking about civilians, considering that's what Sine was talking about... May I direct your attention to http://www.iraqbodycount.net/. Where the current total of civilians killed is at 9061. How does this number of civilians at all compare to "shooting [an] Al Qaeda to death?"

Your post is so full of incendiary rhetoric, its disgusting.


1. Iraqi's aren't Arabs. A lot of people seem to forget that. They are Muslims, but they are not Arabs. Persia, not Saudi Arabia
2. These so called "Arabs" flew jets into our buildings, killing innocent civilians all before the stupid actions taken by our soldiers. You've continued with categorizing these people into one group. Al Qaeda is not Iraq terrorism. It probably is in Iraq now, but you cannot claim that Al Qaeda is an Iraq institution.
3. "It doesn't matter what they think, feel, or why they do what they do." This is so inflammatory its disgusting. Next you'll be telling us that we need to Nuke the Middle East. Empathy is a good thing. Understanding why someone does something is always a good thing. It lets you predict what they will do in the future and act accordingly. What you're saying to do is to ignore how they will respond to things so that every time we kill civilians, and they claim revenge, we say they are being barbarous animals and continue to kill more. That is definately not the way to stop the killing...
4. A war on terror you say. How can you have a full on frontal military engagement with Terrorism. Claiming that fighting in the streets of Iraqi cities is fighting the War on Terror is not comprehending the situation. If you wanted to militarily go against terrorism, it would probably be better to use special operations forces to criple their network, while killing all of the leaders. Or we could try empathy and see what it is about our country is bothering them?
5. "thousands of poor souls who have been murdered by them will certainly have died in vain." Died in vain? Were they ever fighting for a cause? This post is so full of misunderstandings that are combined with propaganda that it's almost unbearable to read. Lets see, first dehumanization. You lump all of those middle eastern people into one group. Then call them Terrorists. Then are refered to as "terrorist murderers," and "*******s."

Like I've said, a little empathy can go a long way. Try dealing with facts, and not garbage fed to you by other people. Try to not fill your evaluation of the issue with the disgust I know you feel with regards to this decapitation.

As has been shown to be required in this thread, here's my obligatory statement of "I am in no way saying that this act of gruesome murder is justified, I am only showing a little empathy."

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Daddy, why doesn't this magnet pick up this floppy disk?

Well, I agree that terrorists are pretty bad (read: understatement of this century). But there are some things our soldiers did they can't put up. Like you know, the murdering. Sure the humiliation is just more of a moral thing, but they didn't show torture and the like, simply because if they showed all of it, it would be stupid because more innocent American soldiers would be killed. Even Rumsfeild said those photos were essentially the tip of the iceberg.

This however has a point. We all know average Americans are horrified by this, i.e. we aren't like them. Not all Arabs are terrorists, and they sure as hell don't like the way things are. Don't use "Arab" and "Terrorist" as interchangeable words.

Heh, we should also think, you know, why they are doing this. Yes, it does matter why. All humans are, more or less, created equal. Now there is a huge gradient here, but we all have the same major brain structures, ect, ect. To me this is a reflection of a deeply desperate people. For christ sakes, they aren't cowards, they are pretty damn willing to lose their own lives. What they are is crazy as the loon. Why is this? Why is their rage directed twoard America? Inpart because of the policies we once held, and the fact we did interfere a great deal with their internal affairs, and continue to do so. The irony may be that in the long run it maybe be actually better for them, but to them it doesn't matter. We do indeed play a huge hand in their affairs, and they don't like it. I don't know how you would like it if Canada decided our next president, or France decided what our form of government should be. Imagine how *******s like McVeigh and other people like him would react. It's complicated but that is what it boils down to. We interfere, this war is an example of that. They don't like that, for good reason in some cases.

So what? Do we not interfere at all and allow people in who would, to say the least, be detremental to our own interests? And we can't exactly forget Israel. Without us they will get a proverbial zerg rush. That is what good leaders are for, something we have a dearth of. However blind support isn't the answer.

Our current path will lead us into a nice quagmire. And even the "nuke the *******s" extreme plan won't work without significant losses. This "war" on terror may not exactly be the way to go. So we fight fire with fire? What have we won so far, honestly? We have made ourselves look like giant asses and garnered even more hate. Geeze, way to go. This war isn't the way, nor is spreading our legs and letting them rape us *cough* spain *cough*. We need to enact a harder middle ground that takes actual tact and thought. Not bombombombom or surrender! We give up! Too bad we need actual intellegence for this famed and maybe non existant middle path. All I know is that neither path is working, and will just lead to more death...

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http://www.4guys-1dragoon.cjb.net -No porn. We promise*

[This message has been edited by Lord Kuat (edited May 12, 2004).]

There is signifigant evidence that Lucky Luciano did absolutely nothing at all. He is hailed as a hero by some, but many believe, with evidence to support them, that the dock explosion was set up to look like Nazi terrorism. They turned to Luciano, who was incarcerated at the time, and he assured him he could do the job, if he was released from prison. He also supposedly helped in the invasion of Italy with help from "friends" in Sicily. That may have actually happened, but given his track record on honesty on this side of the Atlantic, I doubt it.

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Steal my dreams and sell them back to me.....

I was referring to the prisoners, approximately 70%-90% of which are estimated to have been wrongfully captured, according to the Red Cross and military intelligence. Just wanted to clarify.

[Edit: Ah, I see Ictus already mentioned that. Oh well.]

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Map-Review | My Portfolio | The Matrix: Unplugged

[This message has been edited by Thrawn42689 (edited May 12, 2004).]

Ugh! I'm totally disgusted by this bull@#$%!
I don't see how ANYONE CAN TAKE PLEASURE (pleasure might be inaccurate of a word) IN SAWING OFF A PERSON'S HEAD!!! I MEAN DANG! ONLY MENTALLY-FARKED PEOPLE COULD EVEN HAVE A CHANCE TO COME CLOSE.

Okay, let's just get a few things straight. (this has probably been said before, but oh well; btw, it doesn't necessarily pertain to massassians)
1. Common (American?) Logic (or so it seems anyway):
* Al Qaeda are terrorists
* Al Qaeda are Iraqi and Muslim
* therefore Iraqis and Muslims are terrorrists.
WRONG!!!
Not all muslims are terrorists, and not all Arabs and Iraqis are either. A lot of ignorant people seem to use "Arab"/"Iraqi" and "Terrorist" interchangeably. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME GARDANG THING.

2. What these Iraqis did may have been "understandable", but they still had absolutely no farking right to do it! Regardless of what those American troops did to the pow's (they had no right to do that anyway either) As was said, two wrongs don't make a right (but three lefts do... ).
3. [crap, I forgot the other stuff]

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Bond, Power, CA, The Force, Saber, IC, Epic, Oily Mexican Food, BG, /\ |> /\ /\/\, Sentences.
Now you know where I've been.

[This message has been edited by Darth Slaw (edited May 12, 2004).]

Whether or not Luciano was involved, the mob definitely helped in the invasion of Sicily. The reason I've always seen stated was that a lot of the US soldiers themselves had ties to the mob.