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☖ Forums → Discussion Forum → American Beheaded
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American Beheaded
2004-05-13, 9:13 PM #121
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Roach:
Yeah, I've seen the video before. Was he drugged? I don't remember him putting up much of a fight.

</font>


Are you joking? If you're an iraqi terrorist with American scum in custody, a citizen of the great Satan, and you have him in a totally submissive state... are you going to drug him before you cut off his head?

Personally, I'm not going to watch the movie. I can't stand violence, and I think it'll probably haunt me for too long. Videogame violence is one thing... but I couldn't even watch "Saving Private Ryan" for very long. Real violence is far worse yet.

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Ω of 14
New! Fun removed by Vinny :[
2004-05-13, 9:17 PM #122
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by oSiRiS:
Are you joking? If you're an iraqi terrorist with American scum in custody, a citizen of the great Satan, and you have him in a totally submissive state... are you going to drug him before you cut off his head?
</font>


No, I'm not joking at all. Compaired to other decapitation videos I've seen, this one seems fake. He almost doesn't respond to what's happening.

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Roach - Caught in the war of hemispheres.
0 of 14.
omnia mea mecum porto
2004-05-13, 9:29 PM #123
It's almost like he has five guys restraining him..
A desperate disease requires a dangerous remedy.

A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.

art
2004-05-13, 9:34 PM #124
It's almost like people can still move with other people holding them...

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Roach - Caught in the war of hemispheres.
0 of 14.
omnia mea mecum porto
2004-05-13, 9:48 PM #125
Why would anyone want to watch the decapitation footage?

I mean, it's not like I haven't seen real death on film before (the Zapruder film, Tet Offensive street execution, Taliban football field, Eritrean civil war espionage suspect kicked into a ditch and shot several times etc.), but they were part of a high-school class on how the press can affect opinions. Personally, I would have been perfectly happy if never have to watch that documentary with these infamous clips again.

On the other end of the spectrum, we've got the Gulf War 1 style of desensitizing it into some big giant wargame. Tracer-fire over Baghdad, IR-footage of precision bombs slamming into individual tanks while the crew jump out and run as if their heels were on fire, planes catapulting off of carriers with the pilot flicking the camera man a thumbs-up or V-for victory. Armoured columns moving through the desert, oilfields ablaze, a (staged) pelican soaked in oil. Isn't it also somehow important to know that armed conflict is a dirty horrible business that should only be used as a last resort? On the other hand, I'd be perfectly happy to live out the rest of my life never having to witness the violent death of a human being again. What am I, an idealist or just plain youthful naive holier-than-thou westerner?

I don't think I have anything at all to gain by watching the footage. I'm disgusted enough at the human race as it is.
If it breaks, you get to keep both pieces.
2004-05-14, 5:58 AM #126
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sine Nomen:
. Nick Berg was a civilian repairing infrastructure...</font>


Wouldn't matter if he was a garbage man. If you go into a war zone, it's understood that you understand the risks to your life and you accept those risks to be there.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Jesus god, you people will spin this **** to no end to make it seem just slightly less horrible than it is.. </font>


And "you people" will blow it way out of proportion, he accepts the same risks for being there as the millitary personal do...

Yes, it was horrible that it happend. But I'm certainly not shocked by any means.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jaiph:
...yes, we can all agree by now that he was naive as hell for ignoring the advice given to him, but that still doesn't excuse the actions taken against him. The people who killed him were not bears with no concept of right or wrong, they were human beings. Trying to water down this incident with analogies that don't fit serves no real purpose. Yes he was stupid, but last I checked even stupid people don't deserve to have their head slowly cut off on video camera.
</font>


I agree completely.

(BTW, the analogies aren't meant to 'water down' it's meant to bring it down to a realistic level and not the overblown reaction that has come from this).


------------------
"At last, we have come to find the truth to our souls. Though, the truth is not what we expected. I now fear my own soul."
"At last, we have come to find the truth to our souls. Though, the truth is not what we expected. I now fear my own soul."
2004-05-14, 10:43 AM #127
Reportedly, Daniel Pearl was offered sedatives but refused before his head was cut off.

Mr Berg probably had no idea what was about to happen. He appears to be sitting there calmly before he is violently pulled to the ground and the butcher goes to work. In the video I have, it seems to me that he is screaming in agony for about twenty seconds or so until either the loss of blood and/or ammount of physical damage put an end to his pain. The butcher then holds his head up for the camera and Mr. Berg's face had an earie look of calm.

Hey, I haven't gone back and read replies to my last post. Many here probably don't really know me from a time when I debated in more open terms. I know that I know sound absolute in the statements I make. That really is only because I simply don't have the time or energy to keep up with lengthy debates. With that being said I think we all agree that violence on all sides is sad. Maybe we all don't agree on this though: The terrorists that have done all of the horrific acts we've been witness too over the last couple decades are not of the same species as humans. We can't make peace with people who would so casually murder people that are different from them. The terrorists responsible for this, and many other, acts must be destroyed and I would almost go so far as to say by any means necessary (within reason).

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Have you forgotten ...
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2004-05-14, 1:35 PM #128
CaptBewil and I are thinking on the completelly same level. The bear analogy is perfect. Don't walk into the middle of a war and expect people will treat you as if you have rights. I don't think we should be in such shock that terrorists kill people, even citizens, that they can get ahold of. Doesn't mean it's any less sad, and that Berg SHOULD have died, but he certainly isn't a "Captured" American. He basically walked into their hands.

JediKirby

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<]-[ellequin> Nothing is quite as satisfying as placing a .177 lead pellet in between the eyes of a cat.
<]-[ellequin> I think I will leave it's corpse there, to warn all the other cats to keep out of my hibiscus patch

Live on, Adam.
ᵗʰᵉᵇˢᵍ๒ᵍᵐᵃᶥᶫ∙ᶜᵒᵐ
ᴸᶥᵛᵉ ᴼᵑ ᴬᵈᵃᵐ
2004-05-14, 3:04 PM #129
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jEDIkIRBY:
CaptBewil and I are thinking on the completelly same level. The bear analogy is perfect. Don't walk into the middle of a war and expect people will treat you as if you have rights. I don't think we should be in such shock that terrorists kill people, even citizens, that they can get ahold of. Doesn't mean it's any less sad, and that Berg SHOULD have died, but he certainly isn't a "Captured" American. He basically walked into their hands.

JediKirby

</font>


By definition he is a captured American. Captured is a word that you would use to describe an abduction, and being as Nick Berg didn't go up to the al Qaeda members and ask for them to kill him, we can use the word 'captured' as it is defined. That's totally undeniable. That's as undeniable as September 11th actually happened.

You obviously don't understand that it is quite a shock that someone has their head severed infront of a camera. If you see the video, you will be shocked. If you havn't seen the video, your desire to not watch it says something.

You do say something which is partially true... it isn't totally safe being an American in Iraq. However, just because you go there because mean you are insured death. That is why your bear analogy, quite frankly, sucks. Humans are not predators, and it is not our natural instinct to kill. If you were an Iraqi and you saw Nicholas Berg walking around on the street, your urge wouldn't be to go for the jugular and knaw the meat right off his bones. A bear, however, might just do that, be it a cave, or Baghdad.

So quit parading around saying "what I said is true and undeniable" because it isn't by any stretch of the imagination... infact, you are actually quite off the mark.

------------------
To myself I surrender to the one I'll never please.
But I still try to run on.
You know I still try to run on. But it's all or none.

Eddie Vedder
former entrepreneur
2004-05-14, 4:29 PM #130
I must so, though, that it seems odd that Nick Berg had contact with (forgive the mangled spelling) Zacharias Mosawi, "the 20th hijacker". If you don't know what I'm talking about I just saw something briefly on the news where they apparantly crossed paths in Ohio and Mosawi was in possession of his email address.

I don't know where this might go but I don't like any of it.

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Have you forgotten ...
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2004-05-14, 5:42 PM #131
*cough*

Once again, naive, but not evil or whatever.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Northeast/05/13/berg.encounter/index.html

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
"If all those usefull inventions that are lyable to abuse, should therefore be concealed, there is not any Art or Science, which might be lawfully profest."
-John Wilkins, Mercury, or the Secret and Swift messenger, shewing how a man may with privacy and speed Communicate his thoughts to a Friend at any distance (London, 1641)
NPC.Interact::PressButton($'Submit');
Also, I can kill you with my brain.
2004-05-14, 5:51 PM #132
And because the prisoner's got brought up, 250+ of them just got released:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/14/iraq.abuse/index.html

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[Blue Mink Bifocals !] [fsck -Rf /world/usr/] [<!-- kalimonster -->] [Capite Terram]
"If all those usefull inventions that are lyable to abuse, should therefore be concealed, there is not any Art or Science, which might be lawfully profest."
-John Wilkins, Mercury, or the Secret and Swift messenger, shewing how a man may with privacy and speed Communicate his thoughts to a Friend at any distance (London, 1641)
NPC.Interact::PressButton($'Submit');
Also, I can kill you with my brain.
2004-05-15, 1:24 AM #133
i say this whole thread has gone down the ****ter. prisoner abuse is nothing new, and it will continue to happen.

the citizen would have been killed for one reason or another. it's as simple as that.

it'll only get uglier as time goes on. you know what happened will affect coalition troops the next time they are in a hairy situation.

maybe the only way to break the insurgent's will would be to play the "eye for an eye" game. it's still doubtful, though.

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Current Maps | Inclusion | Restless Endeavor

There is a thin line between insanity and stupidity. I am that line.
Current Maps | Newest Map
2004-05-15, 5:07 AM #134
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dormouse:
*cough*

Once again, naive, but not evil or whatever.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Northeast/05/13/berg.encounter/index.html

</font>


Thanks for the link. I said Ohio instead of Oklahoma.

- edit: And who's naive? Berg certainly but if you're referring to me I don't see how you got that from my last post. If you're referring to the mistakes I made that's because I only heard a snippet of the story. In any case I still don't like where the story has the potential to go.


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Have you forgotten ...

[This message has been edited by Wookie06 (edited May 15, 2004).]
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2004-05-15, 6:08 AM #135
I've seen the video. It's discusting. That doesn't mean it's a shock that it happened.

And about everyone's comments on the anologies. Analogies are to help understand a certain situation: But not analogy is going to give an exact explination. Assuming that the situation is as simple as a bears den is idiocy. The fact is, he shouldn't have gone to iraq without planning ahead what he'd do there. His whole problem was that he was treating iraq like it was some American city where he can apply for a job and wait around for a call. Those that go to iraq seeking jobs, they call ahead and set everything up so they can avoid... you know, being killed?

JediKirby

------------------
<]-[ellequin> Nothing is quite as satisfying as placing a .177 lead pellet in between the eyes of a cat.
<]-[ellequin> I think I will leave it's corpse there, to warn all the other cats to keep out of my hibiscus patch

Live on, Adam.
ᵗʰᵉᵇˢᵍ๒ᵍᵐᵃᶥᶫ∙ᶜᵒᵐ
ᴸᶥᵛᵉ ᴼᵑ ᴬᵈᵃᵐ
2004-05-16, 11:51 AM #136
You assume just because he was killed he did nothing to prevent it?

------------------
To myself I surrender to the one I'll never please.
But I still try to run on.
You know I still try to run on. But it's all or none.

Eddie Vedder
former entrepreneur
2004-05-16, 12:11 PM #137
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally Posted by Sine Nomen ... Are you people daft? The man who reads the statement and beheads Berg claims to be (and is, according to the CIA) Abu Musab al Zarqawi. ... We *know* who these people, are, ok? There's zero doubt that they're affiliated with al Qaeda.</font>


Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">15 Anomalies Surrounding
Death Of Nick Berg
5-14-4

(Warning: Parts of the following discussion contain rather sickening references.)

Arab linguists have said the man posing as the Jordanian Zaraqawi did not speak with a Jordanian dialect. Others have suggested the man reading the written statement may not have been a native speaker of Arabic.

Zaraqawi was missing one leg and had been outfitted with an artificial leg that did not fit or function properly. He was unable to walk or stand normally with his ill-fitting limb. No man in the group showed evidence of such an infirmity.

Numerous indigenous sources have said Zaraqawi was killed by a US helicopter attack months ago when he was unable to move quickly enough to escape the targeted house. While others managed to exit the house in time to survive, he died in the collapsed building.

As any surgeon will testify, the alleged beheading was a fake. A beheading would result in a tremendous amount of spurting blood. There would have been blood everywhere had an actual beheading taken place. When the executioner holds up Berg's head immediately following what is represented as an actual decapitation of a living person, there is no significant blood flow from the neck or blood splatters showing anywhere on the executioner. Furthermore, the cut was simply too neat to have been done crudely and with such amazing speed by a man wielding a knife. Anybody who has ever carved a turkey knows there is something wrong with the supposed beheading. The suspended head looks more like Berg had been neatly beheaded by a guillotine.

The orange jumpsuit was standard US military issue to men in custody. It is unlikely Berg would have continuing wearing a US custodial uniform if he had been released by the military as they claim. The fact he was still wearing the suit is both anomalous and suggestive. One is forced to speculate as to whether there was an immediate transfer of Berg from the US military to unknown persons, thusly preventing Berg from discarding his US prison garb.

Several of the men in the film were fat by Iraqi standards. If they were Feyadeen or mujahadeen, they probably have been living underground since the first days of the occupation. Tens of thousands of Iraqis have been shown on news stories as they have marched and demonstrated. One would be hard pressed to point out a single fat man among these thousands.

Some men had what can only be described as pasty-white hands. Once again, one would be hard pressed to find Arab men with pasty-white hands.

The lack of spurting blood suggests Berg was already dead at the time of the alleged decapitation. It is possible Berg's dead body was displayed with his head already partially or totally severed. In any case, he almost certainly was killed before the staged beheading. If so, it suggests the captors had no stomach for an actual beheading of a living person, and they opted to fulfill their assignment quietly and with the least amount of gore.

The scream that is heard has been interpreted as a woman's scream by many viewers. Videotape cognoscenti have further said the scream was amateurishly added to the tape.

The U.S. government translation of one statement made on the film is: "Does al Qaeda need any further excuses?" This is a falsification. The actual statement urged fellow insurgents to get off their hind ends and do something. One assumes the translator being used by the US military is a native speaker of Arabic, so this cannot be explained as an innocent flub. This suggests the US government wanted to inject an alleged al- Qaeda group into the murder of Nick Berg.

Iraqis who have seen the videotape on Arabic news broadcasts are universally saying the men in the film are not Iraqis. Are they saying this partly because the speaker does not employ an Iraqi dialect? Where does their certainty come from?

Firearms experts have stated the AK-47 carried by one man was a "Gilal." This actually is an Israeli-made weapon that improves on the famous AK- 47. Feyadeen and other insurgents almost universally use AK-47s.

The man in the videotape who is purported to be Zarqawi is wearing a gold ring. This is absolutely proscribed by Islamic law.

The US military has stated that Berg was never in US custody and that he had been in custody of the Iraqi police. The Iraqi police adamantly deny he was ever in their custody. On April 1, an e-mail from Beth A. Payne, the U.S. consular officer in Iraq, was sent to the family of Nick Berg. It stated that Ms. Payne had located Nick, and he was currently in custody of the US military. We have to conclude that either the email was bogus or the US military has been lying.

The chair that Berg was seated in during the filming was a standard issue military chair of the exact same kind as seen in a color photo taken at the Abu Ghraib Prison. The chances a terrorist cell would be using this same chair are minimal at best.</font>

sine's zionist conspiracy deepens, everyone grab your Game Boy Advance and head for the hills!
2004-05-16, 12:52 PM #138
CaptBewill: Of course there are going to be more deaths if the military are allowed to do what they know how to do without interference from politicians and diplomats who know talk, not action. In the short term. I even said so. But in the long term it will be a lot better. Let the diplomats deal with those who they can talk to and let the military deal with those who will continue to attack troops to their last breath. The troops have had to play games of pussyfooting until just recently. Even then they were doing well, but it wasn't good enough. We need to do more of what we did in Fallujah: Go in, take out as many known resistance forces we can find and then hand control over to some Iraqi official to manage the town.

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Is Wayne Brady going to have to choke a *****?

[This message has been edited by Kieran Horn (edited May 16, 2004).]
Democracy: rule by the stupid
2004-05-16, 3:21 PM #139
Ghorg, in short, that is all crap. I'd say more but I just responded to it on a different forum.

I will say this though. The chair is not military issue. We got those chairs from Iraqis. They're everywhere over there.

------------------
Have you forgotten ...
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2004-05-16, 7:44 PM #140
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Wookie06:
Hey, I haven't gone back and read replies to my last post. Many here probably don't really know me from a time when I debated in more open terms. I know that I know sound absolute in the statements I make. That really is only because I simply don't have the time or energy to keep up with lengthy debates. With that being said I think we all agree that violence on all sides is sad. Maybe we all don't agree on this though: The terrorists that have done all of the horrific acts we've been witness too over the last couple decades are not of the same species as humans. We can't make peace with people who would so casually murder people that are different from them. The terrorists responsible for this, and many other, acts must be destroyed and I would almost go so far as to say by any means necessary (within reason).</font>


Wow...just...wow. Not same species of Human, huh? Mind giving us some scientific research to back that up? Seconly, I find it sad that you think that these "terroist" are just killing people because their different from them. Are you suggesting that they are Racist? If so, I think you could find far worse 'racial hate' crimes committed by the "whites" in US History. Have you ever stopped for a moment and thought about why they might be now against us? This little article was release 2 days after Sept 11th, 2001:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,551086,00.html

Here's another nice little read:
http://www.bigeye.com/binladin.htm

Oh, and more Iraq centered:
http://users.westnet.gr/~cgian/iraq7yrs.htm

Especially noteworth from that link are:
"Over 1.2 million people have died as a result of medical shortages during more than seven years of U.N. trade sanctions against Iraq. - Ministry of Health, September 1997."

"More than one million Iraqis have died-567,000 of them children-as a direct consequence of economic sanctions . . .. As many as 12% of the children surveyed in Baghdad are wasted, 28% stunted and 29% underweight."-UN FAO, December 1995."

"Sanctions are inhibiting the importation of spare parts, chemicals, reagents, and the means of transportation required to provide water and sanitation services to the civilian population of Iraq. ... What has become increasingly clear is that no significant movement towards food security can be achieved so long as the embargo remains in place. All vital contributors to food availability - agricultural production, importation of foodstuffs, economic stability and income generation, are dependent on Iraq's ability to purchase and import those items vital to the survival of the civilian population" - UNICEF, 1995"

"UNR 986 allows for the limited sale of $2 billion of Iraqi oil every 6 months. Only 40% of the proceeds from the "Oil for Food" deal can be used to purchase food and medicine for the population of Central and Southern Iraq. These small and restricted sales allocate less than 25 cents a day per person, and provide, at best, less than a quarter of the minimum caloric intake.

Oh, and: http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Usama%20Bin%20Ladin

"By 1988, Osama bin Laden had split from the MAK and established a new guerilla group, dubbed al-Qaida, which included many of the more militant MAK members he had met in Afghanistan. The Soviet Union withdrew from Afghanistan in 1989. Osama was lauded as a hero in Saudi Arabia, but during the Gulf War against Iraq he was critical of Saudi Arabia's dependence on the U.S. military and demanded that all foreigners leave the country. It was the U.S. support of what he viewed to be a corrupt, materialist, and irreligious Saudi monarchy that turned him against the United States. He began to criticize the monarchy and was forced to flee to Sudan in 1991, where he set up a new base of operations."

Racist or a "Rebel" with a cause?

Is this to say that Terriorist acts are justifiable under these circumstances? Of course not. But to many, "All's fair in love and war"... He's playing a game of war to win and to use your own words: "by any means necessary." Perhaps people like you and these "terroist" arn't so different after all...In fact, I would go as far as saying what happend at the Abu Ghraib Prison is, by their cultural equivalence, terroism (especially as Miss Poster Child has said that certain "officials" asked her to pose in those picture as they were using the pictures in interrogations to show the one being interrogated what would happend to them if they didn't cooporate. Not to memntion that many of the Iraqies that were Humiliated probably wish they were dead after that).

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kieran Horn:
CaptBewill: Of course there are going to be more deaths if the military are allowed to do what they know how to do without interference from politicians and diplomats who know talk, not action. In the short term. I even said so. But in the long term it will be a lot better. Let the diplomats deal with those who they can talk to and let the military deal with those who will continue to attack troops to their last breath. The troops have had to play games of pussyfooting until just recently. Even then they were doing well, but it wasn't good enough. We need to do more of what we did in Fallujah: Go in, take out as many known resistance forces we can find and then hand control over to some Iraqi official to manage the town.

</font>



It doesn't work like that. The more the millitary is allowed to do things 'their' way, the harder they make it for the diplomats. If the millitary had it 'their' way they'd be storming mosques left and right. Over there, they take their religion stuff pretty seriously. Do you have any idea the kind of reaction would be had to the millitary storming these mosques? The already dwindling support would decrease exponentially. The "Rules of Engagement" and "Geneva Convention" laws are in place for a reason. In it's basic form, it keeps an already bad situation from becomming much much worse.

Don't get me wrong. I see, know, and understand completely where your coming from. But there's a great deal more for us to consider. After all, what will all of this been worth if they are not our allies or simply don't trust us when this is all over with? There's a fine line that can't be crossed or broken...and that line has already been stretched nearly to the breaking point...

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Wookie06:
Ghorg, in short, that is all crap. I'd say more but I just responded to it on a different forum.

I will say this though. The chair is not military issue. We got those chairs from Iraqis. They're everywhere over there.</font>


Amd yet another sad unsupported claim by Wookie06...

------------------
"At last, we have come to find the truth to our souls. Though, the truth is not what we expected. I now fear my own soul."

[This message has been edited by CaptBewil (edited May 16, 2004).]
"At last, we have come to find the truth to our souls. Though, the truth is not what we expected. I now fear my own soul."
2004-05-17, 2:55 AM #141
That was weak. You're claiming some kind of racism because UN sanctions against Iraq or, rather, the articles do. Plus, it should be obvious that "species of humans" is figurative although their must be some kind of defect in people that would do those kinds of things to others.

And Ghorg's post was quoting conspiratorial crap. The kind that routinely pops up on the internet.

I could argue the issues but what's the point? We all know that noone is going to be persuaded from their points of view in a discussion on this forum. So I'll just continue to exhibit my sad inability and mental incapacity for you.

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Have you forgotten ...
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2004-05-17, 5:22 AM #142
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
although their must be some kind of defect in people that would do those kinds of things to others.
</font>


There have been many arguments trying to link crime and deviance to genetic factors, and none of them have been even remotely convincing (although this could be due to the general uncertainty regarding genetics).
It's easy to say 'oh they're crazy' and that's often very comforting and helpful, but it simply isn't true.

Until recently, the common view regarding suicide bombers was that they were all people that were just depressed and wanted to commit suicide anyway and figured they might as well join some organisation and become a suicide bomber too. This would suggest that countries with higher rates of suicides would be more likely to produce suicide bombers, and this simply isn't the case.

Branding these people as 'crazy' or otherwise inferior is frequently used in military conflict, but if you want to really understand this objectively you have to start to consider "terrorists" as real people. They are people just like you, and it really begs the question "why are they doing this?", and this is the most important question to which a comprehensive and valid answer must be found. Saying they have 'some kind of defect' is no answer, and will get you nowhere.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2004-05-17, 6:56 AM #143
That's the most intelligent thing I think I've ever read of yours.

I wouldn't call it a genetic defect. I don't even think it's a mental defect, per se. More likely than not it is simply a social defect. All I know is that something must be defective when a person, or group of people, can viciously mutilate and murder and take joy in the act. Even in the case when the country they are in is on the verge of freedom for the first time in their lives.

Sure, they are people. Geneticly they may even be people just like me. Morally they are beneath animals. The few that take pleasure in the slaughter of innocent people, that is.

------------------
Have you forgotten ...
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2004-05-17, 7:42 AM #144
Kind of like some of these people, Wookie?
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The Iraqis are sick people and we are the chemotherapy," said Corporal Ryan Dupre. "I am starting to hate this country. Wait till I get hold of a friggin' Iraqi. No, I won't get hold of one. I'll just kill him.</font>
2004-05-17, 8:55 AM #145
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Wookie06:
That's the most intelligent thing I think I've ever read of yours.

I wouldn't call it a genetic defect. I don't even think it's a mental defect, per se. More likely than not it is simply a social defect. All I know is that something must be defective when a person, or group of people, can viciously mutilate and murder and take joy in the act. Even in the case when the country they are in is on the verge of freedom for the first time in their lives.

Sure, they are people. Geneticly they may even be people just like me. Morally they are beneath animals. The few that take pleasure in the slaughter of innocent people, that is.

</font>


'Social defect' is quite a worrying phrase. As I believe was mentioned earlier, this is their culture. A detailed study into radical fundemental Islamic culture would be very interesting, and far more informative than the sweeping and derogatory explanations given by the media. I figure that there may be considerable practical considerations to this, as well as problems with objectivity.

But anyway, this is a conflict of cultures, of norms of values. You value individual life, they don't. It is as simple as that. 'Morals' are entirely subjective, and perfect set of standards to live your personal life by. But to start judging other cultures based on your culture is the very definition of ethnocentric.
Several American officials have said that a problem in Iraq is that they tend to 'Americanise' things a little too much, and I hope that this is being addressed and that a greater understanding of general Iraqi culture.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
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2004-05-17, 10:06 AM #146
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">It doesn't work like that. The more the millitary is allowed to do things 'their' way, the harder they make it for the diplomats. If the millitary had it 'their' way they'd be storming mosques left and right. Over there, they take their religion stuff pretty seriously. Do you have any idea the kind of reaction would be had to the millitary storming these mosques? The already dwindling support would decrease exponentially. The "Rules of Engagement" and "Geneva Convention" laws are in place for a reason. In it's basic form, it keeps an already bad situation from becomming much much worse.

Don't get me wrong. I see, know, and understand completely where your coming from. But there's a great deal more for us to consider. After all, what will all of this been worth if they are not our allies or simply don't trust us when this is all over with? There's a fine line that can't be crossed or broken...and that line has already been stretched nearly to the breaking point...

</font>

Okay, that makes sense. Lets just say the military and diplomats can make the others job harder.

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2004-05-17, 10:22 AM #147
If I hear one more person say that this was for "Iraqi Freedom" or that "they are closer than before to freedom", I would wish for a "strangle over the internet" feature. Get it through your thick skulls, Iraqis are not more free, they are not happier, things are not lolipops and sunshine. We invaded their country, destroyed what little orginization they had, and are trying to act like whoop de doo, we did a good thing. They aren't closer to freedom, what they are is closer to complete anarchy, akin to Afganistan. We are a virus over there, a particularly deadly one at that. Symptoms include loss of life, property, and general sanity.

Wookie, WE INVADED THEIR COUNTRY. It isn't our country, we came there. Of course they want to slaughter us, WE AREN'T SUPOSED TO BE THERE. That guy WASN'T SUPOSED TO BE THERE. The whole reason we have all these problems from 9/11 and up is because WE WERE PLACES WE WEREN'T SUPPOSED TO BE.

This at its base isn't a bloody damned social/cultural conflict, it's a "complete and total disreguard for other countrie's soverignty since the ealy 1900's" conflict. Really, if these were, say, european countries, I don't think any of them would particularly like having what governments they have decided for them, or who should live in thier terriotory, ect, ect. They wouldn't lay spread eagle for other counties to rape them. No, they would fight back.

Jeese, this will get a response now. Anything moderate here gets bloody ingnored.

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2004-05-17, 10:49 AM #148
What are you are talking about? This Berg guy was not a soldier at all. He had every right to be there, just as much of a right as immigrants in the US.

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"If there's one thing I've learned it's this - you just can't shake hands with a fist" - David Allen Coe
2004-05-17, 11:06 AM #149
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Wookie06:
That was weak. You're claiming some kind of racism because UN sanctions against Iraq or, rather, the articles do.</font>


1) Your the one that suggested racism.
2) I my evidence was to show you that their dislike for us was NOT about racism but for what WE have been doing to THEM.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kieran Horn:
Okay, that makes sense. Lets just say the military and diplomats can make the others job harder.</font>


They actually DO make the others juob harder. [http://forums.massassi.net/html/wink.gif] Then again, if they didn't we wouldn't need both, now would we? [http://forums.massassi.net/html/smile.gif] It's hard to balance to two. But that's why we don't allow either one to strictly control how the 'situations' are handled. They're simply a 'check and balance' to each other.


Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Raoul Duke:
What are you are talking about? This Berg guy was not a soldier at all. He had every right to be there, just as much of a right as immigrants in the US.
</font>


No, you cannot possibly compare Berg to a legal immigrant in the US. Berg basically walked right in with the chief goal of taking advantage of the situation over there to turn a profit. Unfortunately, that requires bringing Western Ideas and Culture with him...something the Mid-Eastern (Islamic) world are mostly trying to keep out of their countries...

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[This message has been edited by CaptBewil (edited May 17, 2004).]
"At last, we have come to find the truth to our souls. Though, the truth is not what we expected. I now fear my own soul."
2004-05-17, 12:50 PM #150
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by CaptBewil:
Berg basically walked right in with the chief goal of taking advantage of the situation over there to turn a profit. Unfortunately, that requires bringing Western Ideas and Culture with him...something the Mid-Eastern (Islamic) world are mostly trying to keep out of their countries...</font>


And if 1 out of every 20 people believed this, we wouldn't be in Iraq right now. Don't people understand? They don't like us. It's as simple as that. I really don't think ANYONE needs a real good reason to hate someone else.

I'd also like to mention: Everything IN iraq wasn't in iraq last week. Once we started "Liberating" iraq, people from all around the area, people who have been wronged, or believe they have been wronged by the US are getting off on blowing up our young people.

And, I'd like to make one, simple thing clear: We have no reason to be in Iraq. Just because it had a dictator leading it doesn't mean it needs our attention. If America helped every single country that required help, we wouldn't have enough resources left to feed California, let alone America. I won't tell you why we're in Iraq, because I really don't know. All I really DO know, is that we have NO reason to be there, but it was clearly meant to seem like it was linked to Afganistan. We were there to stop ACTUAL terrorists, and now we've simply brought those terrorists to a nother country, and given them a reason to terrorize.

JediKirby

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2004-05-17, 1:34 PM #151
Sorry, I can't keep up with this anymore. It's not that I can't it just that I've been sadly neglecting my XBox lately.

The only thing I want to briefly comment on is the comment that they [the Iraqis] want to slaughter us. Not true (for the most part). There is a lot of resentment in the Sunni Triangle towards us because they were actually taken care of (mostly) under Saddam. That's why that area has been the most troublesome. In most of the other areas, things are quite cordial. We interacted fine with most of the locals. Sure it sucked having our compound hit with RPGs and mortars from time to time but for the most part the people were quite friendly.

I'll try to browse this and the other similar topics from time to time if anyone wants to actually ask me anything based on my experience over there. From here on I will try to limit any of my posts simply to that and not so much on my opinions.

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Have you forgotten ...
"I would rather claim to be an uneducated man than be mal-educated and claim to be otherwise." - Wookie 03:16

2004-05-17, 3:59 PM #152
Kuat, you're letting the views of a few insurgents, who may or may not even be Iraqis make a decision ofr you. All you hear about on the news is "Iraqi insurgents this and Iraqi insurgents that:. They don't represent the majority of the country, Believe it or not, there are Iraqis helping the US fight the insurgents. There are Iraqis working with the US to get the US out of the country peacefully.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.
Pissed Off?
2004-05-17, 4:25 PM #153
That's just being stubborn Avenger, saying "Well we're not getting out of here, because they *want* us out".

Playing hardball vietnam-style isn't going to get you any further than it did in... vietnam.

There was another Iraqi poll the other day, among other figures, 0.1% of Iraqi's like the idea of The Iraqi Governing Council appointing an interim government.
2004-05-17, 5:01 PM #154
You're putting words in my mouth, or I just wasn't quite clear enough. There are Iraqis working with the US to set up some sort of government so that the US can leave is all I was alluding to. My point still stands

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.
Pissed Off?
2004-05-17, 5:24 PM #155
I don't want us out of there now Avenger. But I'm just saying I hate the operation Iraqi freedom crap people are passing. I think they didn't want us, but now we are the only viable choice for rebuilding they have. They didn't invite us, we invaded.

But we have to stay and clean up the mess we created. And they need help. So yeah, they see that.

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2004-05-17, 5:44 PM #156
I agree with you, but to say they don't want is there is very vague and not representive of reality, where there are many different groups involved in the whole situation, of which the insurgents are just one.

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I'm not an actor. I just play one on TV.
Pissed Off?
2004-05-17, 11:37 PM #157
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I won't tell you why we're in Iraq, because I really don't know. All I really DO know, is that we have NO reason to be there,</font>


I find this sentence very.. perplexing? "I don't know why we're there, but we have no reason to be there". Eh??

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2004-05-18, 6:48 AM #158
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dormouse:
I find this sentence very.. perplexing? "I don't know why we're there, but we have no reason to be there". Eh??

</font>


Yes, but if he doesn't know why they're there then he doesn't know any reason to be there. Sort of confusing, with the first clause being clearly his personal thoughts and the second clause sort of looking like fact, but being linked to the first could suggest that that is his personal thoughts too.
I think the point is that he wasn't convinced by the reasons given as to why to invade, and he is unsure of the actual motives of the Government to invade. This suggests that the government don't actually believe the reasons that they have given, and that there is some ulterior motive behind it (and that it is this ulterior motive that he is unsure of), though he hasn't actually specified that and it could just be that he personally isn't convinced by the government's reasoning although the government do actually believe them.

Or maybe it shouldn't be read into too much.

[This message has been edited by Mort-Hog (edited May 18, 2004).]
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. " - Bertrand Russell
The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others 1931-1935
2004-05-18, 9:15 AM #159
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Yes, but if he doesn't know why they're there then he doesn't know any reason to be there. Sort of confusing, with the first clause being clearly his personal thoughts and the second clause sort of looking like fact, but being linked to the first could suggest that that is his personal thoughts too. </font>


Uhhh....hmmm yeah either that or he just has no clue what hes talking about and he got his opinion from the media like all the other bandwagoning bush hating bleeding hearts.

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"If there's one thing I've learned it's this - you just can't shake hands with a fist" - David Allen Coe
2004-05-18, 1:18 PM #160
I'm saying that I really don't want to accuse the american government of their REAL reason that they're there. I don't know. No one can REALLY know, except those within the government, and even then, who really knows there? Few. I don't blame things if I don't know, so I won't cry "OIL!" or "POLITICAL STRIVE!" because, really, I don't know. What I DO know, is that they have no current reason. What they've given us so far all rubs down to one of two completelly lacking points:

1. Saddam is a BAAAAAD Man.

Reason this point lacks, is that whatever we accuse him of, we've either done, or America isn't on such a high horse as to punish someone for these actions. Unless the UN asks america to punish someone, we don't have any right to attack someone elses country because we don't like how they run things. That's like a teacher yelling at a student for telling them how to teach a class the student isn't even in. First of, the student has no right to tell a teacher how to run their class room. Second, it's not even his class.

2. They're terrorists, and will attack us.

Maybe they are. In fact, I have no trouble beleiving this. But... where's the evidence? It continually is backtracked to Osama, who we can all agree is in no way related to Saddam, I promis. And the actions of One terrorist orginization does NOT reflect the actions of another. Saddam never really actually hated us, and to tell you the truth, he was a nice guy to us. He never had any hatred toward us, publically, or personally. He isn't of a "religion" that hates the US. He's a muslem.

[edit]
Let's not forget the third point which I shouldn't even have to argue, but probably will end up doing so, anyway.

3. We're liberating Iraq. This ties in with 1.
[/edit]
JediKirby

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<]-[ellequin> Nothing is quite as satisfying as placing a .177 lead pellet in between the eyes of a cat.
<]-[ellequin> I think I will leave it's corpse there, to warn all the other cats to keep out of my hibiscus patch

Live on, Adam.

[This message has been edited by jEDIkIRBY (edited May 18, 2004).]
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